User talk:Sankarson
That page is very good idea. Hornplease 01:36, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Image:Washah.jpg listed for deletion[edit]
Admrb♉ltz (T | C) 00:50, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi! A request has been made for peer review of Kolkata. Could you please help improving the article? Thanks a lot.--Dwaipayanc 11:42, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
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About Bengali cuisine[edit]
Hi,
I noticed that you claimed "Bangladeshi cuisine" is quite different from "Bengali cuisine". This is quite intersting, considering that almost 60-75% of Bengalis are Bangladeshis. Anyway, the article Bengali cuisine is supposed to be about the common cuisine of the entire Bengal. If you are interested to write about the cuisine of West Bengal, you can start one titled Cuisine of West Bengal, though not much will be different from that of Bengali cuisine.
Also, the claim that West Bengali and East Bengali cuisines are quite different is quite wrong. Given the popularity of Ilish in West Bengal, what part is different? If you talk about Hindu Widow's dietary restrictions, these are the same for Bangladeshi Hindu widows. Other than that, what difference do you see?
So, if you are interested to write about West Bengal, please start one for West Bengali cuisine. Otherwise, the "Bengali *" articles are for the entire region of Bengal ... not any part (though Bangladeshi Bengalis can claim to be a majority :) (that's a joke, not serious!!)).
Dhonnobad. --Ragib (talk) 09:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- One possible way can be to make a section about regional variations where we can talk about specific West Bengali or Bangladeshi dishes. Otherwise, Bengalis eat rice, fish, dal, shak etc ... there is no major distinction as you claim. I've eaten in Kolkata hotels too, and didn't find anything that I won't find in a Dhaka hotel. --Ragib (talk) 09:26, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Continuing the comment[edit]
Ilish and rui are eaten in Gujarat also, that does not make it the same cuisine.
As someone who has spent plenty of time eating both kinds of food (I have Bangladeshi relatives), I can certify that the food is actually very different in many cases. Of course there are strong similarities, but there are also dramatic differences. I put to you that 60 years of seperation has introduced enough differences that the two should be treated seperately.
Its true that many of the cultural influences are common - widows, mughals and to a smaller extent the British. But many other influences are very dfferent - the sweets of Kolkata, for instance, are primarily of Marwari origin (a reflection of Kolkata's huge Marwari community) and do not exist in Dhaka. The jewish bakeries, the chinese eateries, all these are far more West Bengal than Bangladesh.
Its a difficult thing - maybe we should call it "Bengali" and "Bangla" food to denote the two cuisines. Yes, they have lots in common, but there are enough differences that it would be very difficult to say they are the same.
I'm happy to open another article if that's what you want. However, this article was already designated with Cuisines of India. Maybe we should copy the relevant parts into a seperate article for Cuisines of Bangladesh. Regional variations is another way to go. --Shanky (talk) 09:39, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- Well, you are talking about regional variations. The Sylheti dishes are different from those eaten in Dhaka, and Chittagonian Shutki isn't available/liked/eaten by people in Northern Bangladesh. So, you can't mark regional variations to be "entirely different cuisine" ... I bet even within West Bengal, you'll find some difference from district to district.
- At least 60-80% of the food habits of all Bengalis are common ... as I said, rice, dal, fish, vegetables. I still don't see how "60 years of separation" has introduced any difference ... if you are talking about the Mughlai dishes, those are specific to Old Dhaka, quite naturally because of the nawab influence, but the same goes for Kolkata. As for onions/no-onions difference, that's a religious difference not a regional one ... I think Hindus in Bangladesh also tend to use less onions than Muslims.
- The sweets and bakeries are some extremely minute regional specialities ... there are some sweets that are specific to particular regions, just as some dishes are specific to particular areas.
- I suggest the following -- if you are interested to write about specific cuisine / dishes unique to West Bengal, Cuisine of West Bengal is perhaps the best place to do so. This article needs to focus on the common characteristics of Bengali food, and can have a section "Regional variation" focusing on food from particular regions. If you go outside Kolkata, I don't think you'll find a difference between East and West Dinajpur, Rajshahi etc of Northern Bengal .... particular dishes can always be unique to an area. But the major things are the same ... rice, fish, dal. This article needs to focus on that. And we need some good references for some parts -- e.g. influence of the widows ...
The problem, I think, is that neither of us has enough authority to talk about the other side. I haven't spent any time in Sylhet or Rajshahi, and you certainly know little about the food in Asansol or Kharagpur (where Marwari sweets, Jewish Bakers and Anglo-Indian Christmas cakes play a big role in what we define as "our" food). The Kolkata-Asansol belt is some 50% of the population of the state. West Bengal is culturally also dominated by Kolkata - regional variances in food are quite small (and I have wandered West Bengal). I suspect that is not true of Bangladesh.
Incidentally, the mughlai restaurants of Kolkata all trace their roots from Lucknow (courtesy Wajid Ali Shah's exile to Kolkata) and not to Dhaka. Both have Turk, Afghan and Persian origins, but there are substantial differences in technique.
--Shanky (talk) 10:03, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- True, but the Dhaka Moghlai restaurants are not things people eat every day, just as people don't eat at Chinese restaurants everyday. What people eat everyday is almost the same. You can always find this or that dish that people from some specific area eat, which may not be correct for other areas. BTW, the comment about "Atop chal" vs "Shiddho chal" is not entirely correct ... even within Bangladesh, there are regions where one is preferred over the other, and there is no "Bangladeshi choice of rice". So, can't generalize any particular rice to be "Bangladeshi cuisine" in particular. --Ragib (talk) 10:08, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
I think you're defining Bengali food too narrowly. The cuisine of a region is the cuisine of its restaurants and bakeries and sweetshops as much as of its home kitchens. Incidentally, I did grow up eating at Nizam's and others very regularly, at least a couple of times a week.
Not sure where the atop-siddho chal statement is - that is certainly incorrect. Many in West Bengal eat siddho chal regularly.
I must also say that sweets are very central to the cuisine of West Bengal. Its probably an offshoot of Kolkata's oversized influence but the sweets are clearly the sweets of professional sweet makers, not anything made at home. Pithe, naru, etc are rarely ever found in a shop, while Ive never seen people make chamcham or bonde or motichoor laddu at home.
Kolkata is only 300 years old, and therefore has a much younger food tradition than Dhaka. Much of West Bengal was forest till not so long ago - little cna be found that dates before 300 years, even in other places. Murshidabad is only 100 yrs older than Kolkata. Other places were older but had small populations. I suspect that has much to do with what West Bengal adopted as its daily food.
And, of course, marwaris eat marwari food every day. so do the four lakh chinese in West Bengal.
--Shanky (talk) 10:18, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- But Pitha, naru, Moa, Chomchom etc. are just as widespread in Bangladesh too. In fact, Moa seems to be the same everywhere. Pitha is something every part of Bangladesh has aplenty ... though the style of Pitha varies from region to region. Bonde / Mihidana is something available in street vendors as well as restaurants. So, I don't really get your sweets related comment ... the same thing can equally be applied to Bangladesh, and I do't see the difference at all. Anyway, my main point is, put the specific regional variations in the West Bengali cuisine article, with a summary of that here. As I mentioned several times here, the principal parts of cuisine are common throughout Bengal, regardless of region, and the specifics can go to area-specific articles. Thanks. I'm signing off for the night. --Ragib (talk) 10:25, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Pitha, moa and naru are actually very uncommon in West Bengal. Bonde and mihidana less so, but still not very common. I challenge you to find pithe available easily anywhere in West Bengal. Today's Bengali sweets are primarily modern creations centered around milk. On the other hand, every tea shop and railway station in West Bengal sells cookies, puff pastry and pound cake - the abiding influence of the Baghdadi Jewish bakers you so lightly dismissed. The only other place for them is Mumbai - where the same tiny community of jewish bakers made maska khari (butter puff pastry) the symbol of Mumbai's tea stalls.
As for Chinese - the most popular chowmein stalls are near colleges and offices. Many in West Bengal do eat Chinese (or at least, its Bengali variant) every day. We're nostalgic enough about that Chinese that even New York has "Indian Chinese" restaurants. The same for Nizam's rolls and biriyanis.
Anyway, I'm not making large changes to the structure of the article. We'll continue talking. maybe we should move this to the discussion page for the article.
--Shanky (talk) 10:43, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
In the ten years since this discussion was written, especially the Nizam-style "Kati Roll" has become a flag-bearer of Bengali (West Bengal) food. Its quite the global phenomenon nowadays.
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Nomination of Kolkata cuisine for deletion[edit]
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