Talk:Indonesia–Malaysia confrontation

Result of the conflict

Is it accurate to put the end of conflict as 'Commonwealth of Nations victory' on result parameter in the infobox esp. when there is no statement like that in the article itself. Refer to Help:Infobox#What should an infobox contain?, information in the infobox should be also mentioned elsewhere on the article.

Based on what's written in the article Sukarno are willing to continue to wage war against Malaysia even though Indonesia didn't have much success in borneo campaign (he declared 'the year of dangerous living' and expand the conflict to West Malaysia). Again, based on what's on the article, the reason that this conflict ended is due to Sukarno was deposed and new administration signed Indonesia-Malaysia peace treaty in 1966 (known as Jakarta Accord 1966). Hence, IMO the result should be peace treaty signed Ckfasdf (talk) 22:37, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. Given that the psychological operations by the British and the CIA (see Counter-measures section) directly contributed to Sukarno's downfall, we can infer that the change of power was part of the conflict.

Also, accoding to the Transition to the New Order article, the split between the left-wing and right-wing military factions of the Indonesian military was exacerbated by the Konfrontasi.

To add to that, the Eastern Front of WWI page contends that it was a Central Powers victory, despite the fact that the government and leaders of Russia that started the war had been replaced.

Regarding your assertion that the result need to be mentioned in the article itself, I believe it could already be inferred by the fact that both Sukarno and the Indonesian military failed to achieve their objectives of the conflict. OwlCityzen (talk) 09:42, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. I have some concerns with your arguments. Firstly, both of references that you mentioned (Counter-measures section and Transition to the New Order) are unsourced (both have {{citation needed}} tag, one is as far back as 2009). Secondly, since there is no reference, your argument can be possible WP:OR and your conclusion is may be considered as WP:SYNTH, esp when you said this conflict is directly contributed to Sukarno downfall. Thirdly, per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article which means whatever info in infobox must be explicitly mentioned somewhere in article. And there is no single mention of "Commonwealth Victory" in the article itself. Instead Aftermath section explicitly mentioned the result of this conflict with proper sourcing. Ckfasdf (talk) 06:59, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, OwlCityzen is right that British Commonwealth victory could already be inferred by the fact that both Sukarno and the Indonesian military failed to achieve their objectives of the conflict. But that is the problem. It is a conclusion not stated by the sources. So it is not allowed according to the first paragraph of Wikipedia:No original research.

I am sure it was a British Commonwealth victory. So I tried but failed to find an explicit statement that would support that conclusion in the following books:

• Confrontation: The War with Indonesia, 1962–1966, by Nicholas van der Bijl (2000)
• Malayan Emergency and Indonesian Confrontation: The Commonwealth's Wars 1948-1966, by Robert Jackson (2011)
• The Time of My Life, by Denis Healey (1989)

No source, no statement.-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:36, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

OK, I have put {{cn}} tag per WP:BURDEN as an interim step. "Victory" claims may be removed in the future if it's still unsourced. Also please note that per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, any information in infobox must be explicitly mentioned somewhere in article. Ckfasdf (talk) 05:53, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

If there is still no citation by 28 April, then I think the "victory" claim should be removed.-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:53, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

How about changing the word "victory" to "success"? With the following citation:

• Foxley-Noris, Christopher Neil (1967). Air Aspects of Operations Against 'Confrontation'. William Clowes and Sons. p. 281. The recent successful campaign to repel Indonesian aggression directed against Malaysia... {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)

-- Toddy1 (talk) 12:17, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Technically, you could. But please keep in mind that per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article, hence you should also edit the article itself.

Btw, regarding the result of conflict itself, Christopher Tuck on his publication has interesting opinion on the result of this conflict. victory is not a zero-sum condition: just because one side might appear to win, it does not exclude the possibility that elements within the ‘defeated’ adversary benefit significantly or lose even more comprehensively. I think this should be included in the article as well. Ckfasdf (talk) 19:52, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

@Eastfarthingan: Please could you join in this conversation.-- Toddy1 (talk) 05:33, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping, I agree that the aftermath section should be a balance in regards to the result of the war from both sides. Clearly the Commonwealth won the war tactically, strategically and politically. With the latter, the change in government in Indonesia with Suharto replacing Sukarno obviously had a benefit on the outcome of the war. In this, comparisons can be made with similar conflicts where a change in government/power/monarchy etc, reflected a war’s oucome; prime examples are Third Anglo-Dutch war, the First Boer War, Eastern front of WWI, Angolan and Mozambican wars of independence. I see that this article is no different to those in that respect. Eastfarthingan (talk) 10:45, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Asking a question

Should i include the separate section for the UFO sighting that occured from September 18 to September 24, 1964 in Surabaya, East Java? Alvaro Ivan Daniswara 2017 (talk) 13:01, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Why would it be relevant?-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:08, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, what relevancy is this? Eastfarthingan (talk) 17:40, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

that sighting occured while the Dwikora operation (during the Indonesia-malaysia confrontation) and some tried to shot down the UFO but failed. The event was known as "UFO Dwikora" Alvaro Ivan Daniswara 2017 (talk) 21:45, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

No, as it's not relevant. You may put it in List of reported UFO sightings though. Ckfasdf (talk) 09:51, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Number of British killed

The article uses the following source to back up a statement in the infobox and elsewhere that British armed forces had 140 killed:

• UK Armed Forces Operational deaths post World War II (PDF). Ministry of Defence. 2015. p. 4.

Note that the Gurkhas were part of the British armed forces, and therefore the claimed figure of 44 Gurkhas killed must be included in the figure for British killed.

Page 10 of UK Armed Forces Operational deaths post World War II lists many conflicts, but the following are relevant to this discussion:

• "Brunei (GSM) 8 Dec 1962 to 23 Dec 1962"

"British Forces were deployed by air and sea following an attempted coup against the Sultan of Brunei led by the North Kalimantan National Army which enjoyed strong covert support from Indonesia. The coup was successfully suppressed."

• "Borneo (GSM) 24 Dec 1962 to 11 Aug 1966"

"The Indonesian–Malaysian confrontation erupted into a violent conflict which stemmed from Indonesia's opposition to the creation of Malaysia. Initial Indonesian attacks into East Malaysia relied heavily on local volunteers who had been trained by the Indonesian Army, however, when the infiltration forces became more organized, the British responded in 1964 by launching their own covert operations into Indonesian Kalimantan, under the code name Operation Claret."

• "Malay Peninsula (GSM) 17 Aug 1964 to 11 Aug 1966"

"This campaign was an extension of the conflict in Borneo where British and Malaysian troops were operating against Indonesian insurgents. In 1964, the Indonesian President decided to attack the Malaysian mainland. Parachute landings were made in Johore while other troops managed to land across the Malacca Straits from Indonesian Sumatra. Between November 1964 and March 1965 there were five attempts to establish guerrilla groups in Johore, all of which failed."

The following table is based on page 8 of UK Armed Forces Operational deaths post World War II, the totals are the same as given on page 4. The Wikipedia article defines the Confrontation as starting on 20 January 1963 (p10 of the source says 24 Dec 1962), and treats the Brunei revolt of 8–17 December 1962 as a different conflict. The Wikipedia article includes the expansion of the conflict to the Malaysian Peninsula as part of the Confrontation. The fifth (yellow) column is the total for Borneo plus the Malay Peninsula, which is the definition of the Confrontation used by the Wikipedia article.

Year	Brunei	Borneo	Malay Peninsula	Borneo + Malay Peninsula
1962	7	2		2
1963		29		29
1964		43	11	54
1965		47	19	66
1966		19	9	28
Total	7	140	39	179

I think the correct figure to be quoting from the source is 179 (including Gurkhas).-- Toddy1 (talk) 15:24, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

"From December 1962 until August 1966, the British lost 19 killed and 44 wounded and the Gurkhas, who with the Royal Marines had necessarily taken from brunt of the fighting, lost 43 killed and 83 wounded. The Australians lost 22 killed with 7 killed in action and the New Zealanders had 7 killed and 7 wounded in action. Of the three known to have been captured by the Indonesians … none returned alive." van der Bijl, Nick (2007). Confrontation, The War with Indonesia 1962–1966. Barnsley: Pen & Sword Military Press. p. 241. ISBN 978-1-84415-595-8.

"During that time, total Commonwealth losses had amounted to 114 killed and 180 wounded, a figure that included 43 Gurkhas killed and 87 wounded, 16 Royal Marines killed and 20 wounded, and the infantry battalions 16 killed and 51 wounded." Jackson, Robert (2011) [1991]. The Malayan Emergency and Indonesian Confrontation: The Commonwealth's Wars 1948–1966. Barnsley, South Yorkshire: Pen & Sword. p. 139. ISBN 9781848845558.

Moulton, J.L.; Barclay, C.N.; Yool, W.M., eds. (1967). Brassey's Annual, the Armed Forces Year-Book, 1967. London: William Clowes & Sons Ltd. p. 349. [Pages 333-409 contains "Extracts from: Statement on the Defence Estimates 1967 (Cmd. 2902)"] "The following casualties occurred:

		Killed	Captured	Wounded	Total
Commonwealth	Military	114	–	182	296
	Civilian	36	4	53	93
	Total	150	4	235	389
Indonesian		602	886	222	1,710

The cells shaded yellow are not in the source, but calculated from the other cells in the table. -- Toddy1 (talk) 12:46, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Carver, Michael (1986). "Conventional Warfare in the Nuclear Age". In Paret, Peter (ed.). The Makers of Modern Strategy: From Machiavelli to the Nuclear Age. Princeton: Princeton University Press. p. 806. ISBN 9780691027647. Casualties were 114 killed and 181 wounded, a high proportion Gurkha. There were also 36 civilians killed, 53 wounded, and 4 captured, almost all local inhabitants. It was estimated that 590 Indonesians were killed, 222 wounded, and 771 captured. -- Toddy1 (talk) 20:50, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Australia

"Indonesian Confrontation, 1963–66 | Australian War Memorial". www.awm.gov.au. "Twenty-three Australians were killed during Confrontation, seven of them on operations, and eight were wounded." -- Toddy1 (talk) 15:30, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

New Zealand

"NZ and Confrontation in Borneo – Confrontation in Borneo | NZHistory, New Zealand history online". nzhistory.govt.nz. "Although there were no fatalities as a result of enemy action, 12 New Zealanders died or were accidentally killed in Southeast Asia the period of Confrontation between 1964 and 1966. The New Zealand roll of honour records the deaths of 20 New Zealanders on operational service in the Malayan and Malaysian campaigns between 1948 and 1966." -- Toddy1 (talk) 15:30, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Save the establishment

to avoid vandalism Trollers739 (talk) 16:21, 18 March 2024 (UTC)