Talk:Alberto Fujimori/Archive 1

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DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.

This archive page covers approximately the dates between the page's creation and late February / early March 2005. See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.

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The archive continues on Talk:Alberto Fujimori/Archive02

Please add new archivals to Talk:Alberto Fujimori/Archive03.

He was made president on his birthday? Luck or bad data? -- Error

Coincidence.

First Lady

I think that the point that his daughter served as first lady should be clear. -- Error 00:25, 8 Aug 2003 UTC)

Higuchi's party

Why the part about Higuchi's party was deleted? -- Error 04:51, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Because I created a separate article for her, Susana Higuchi, and moved it there. I indicated this as such in the Summary field, which you can see in the Page history:
16:49, 22 Aug 2003 . . Viajero (mv paragraph to Susana Higuchi)
As you can see, I didn't have a lot amount of information on her; perhaps you can add more. -- Viajero 09:55, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)~

Book reference

"Ciudadano Fujimori", by Jojamovich, Perú 1994

I could not find a reference to this book on Amazon.com, suggesting that its availability is not universal. Also, being a Spanish language title, it might better be referenced in a Spanish Wikipedia article about Fujimori. So I moved it here for the sake of further discussion. -- Viajero 12:10, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Self coup ?

Some of the political analyst says that dissolving the congress is just a Constitutional infraction, because in other countries the president has the power to dissolve the congress, and in Peru not. Fujimori, at that time, was in power and was elected in voting; then, he was a constitutional president with all the powers to make some changes. 10 Aug 2003

Can somebody explain the international reaction to the self-coup? I don't remember it?-- Error 01:19, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Other countries react with worry. The OEA, ask Fujimori to call for elections and re constitute the Peruvian congress. Fujimori did, and he won the biggest number of sits on that congress (Congreso Constituyente Democratico). Fujimori, according to the polls, had a 80% approval.

Er, no. Under the constitution then in force, the president had no power to suspend or annul the Constitution (or dissolve Congress or the Supreme Court, for that matter).

Name

Are you sure that his name is Albert and not Alberto? -- Error 01:19, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

don't wikify all the dates

Vancouverguy, please don't wikify all the dates. Please refer to Wikipedia:Make only links relevant to the context. -- Viajero 20:28, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It should be relevent to wikify the dates Mr. Fujimori begun and ended his presidency of Peru. Vancouverguy 20:31, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)


ok, just be sure not to edit vandalized version. -- Viajero 20:34, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I didn't know there was a vandalized version. Vancouverguy 20:35, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Some Fujimorista keeps deleting and changing material and I keep reverting his changes, and in doing so I rolled back some of your edits too, since you had edited his vandalized version. -- Viajero 20:41, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Some Toledista, keeps adjetives on the Fujimori´s page and vandalize it. Do not accept other facts. It is necesary to be neutral on political issues, it is mandatory to maintain personal opinion outside. It is necesary for this Toledista to know that this is not his page. It is every body page! There are other sites where he can make political persecution to Fujimori. ie www.fujimoriextraditable.com and others. But here, you have to be neutral.
Opinions are not against NPOV. Passing them for facts is. So it is wrong to say Fujimori is a saint or a devil, but stating what Amnesty International or Fujimori himself say and labeling it so is fine if it enriches the article. Try to get a consensus on what an impartial and informative article should read. -- Error 01:09, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)
To our friend in Lima: If Toledo partisans add material to this article, it will be judged as impartially by those of us interested in this topic as that added by anyone else.
It is possible this article contains errors; but since it is currently protected, we cannot edit it directly. So, if you are interested in further discussing these issues in a civilized way, please list on this page exactly what information you consider erroneous and what information you consider is missing. However, if you want to do so, please first open an account, log in, and sign your postings in these Talk pages. This can be done most easily by typing four times '~' at the end of your message. -- Viajero 16:52, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I do not think that if somebody is putting facts is becoming a partisan of somebody. I am partisan of the truth. The controversial part has to be written as a debate, without taking one side or the other. But, firstable, DO NOT FEEL FEAR OF THE FACTS!!!!the facts will make you free!; take your emotions out, since emotions are not rational. (cuzco100, write to: cuzco100@hotmail.com
I'll unprotect it. Just tell whenever that vandal is back and I'll protect it again. 172 16:55, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I first referred it the person as a vandal, which was perhaps not entirely fair; he (or she) is a partisan, something different. -- Viajero 17:18, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I think we have to take out of this article all the adjetives. Also stop considering the persons as a "partisans" or "enemies" or "toledistas". Let´s all be partisan of the facts; going to the truth. Of course it is difficult, but a good article about Fujimori deseves it. cuzco100@hotmail.com


Pronunciation

How do Peruvians pronounce the j? As in Spanish or as in Japanese? -- Error 02:21, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Interesting question. A native Peruvian told me that his family and Peruvian news anchors pronounce his surname the Spanish way: "Fuhimori". --Menchi 03:24, Aug 25, 2003 (UTC)
Isn't it more like fukhimori? -- Error
Yeah, I think it is the IPA: [x]. But when I listen to Spanish speakers (usually of Mexican ancestry), it sounds very much like [h]. But then again, the pinyin h is also IPA [x], and I absolutely don't find it to be like loch. Maybe it's my dialect. --Menchi 02:39, Aug 26, 2003 (UTC)
[h] is an allophone of [x] in Spanish (Probably, Peruvians may have different pronunciations according to dialect). -- Error
Lived there most of my life, it's always been said "FuHimori" -- Sweeper

Let's get a new image so we dont have to deal with whether to label the current one as the "interpol image" of fujimori. It's too grainy anyways. --Jiang 09:58, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Agreed! I have never liked it. PS, please stick around! -- Viajero 10:53, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Woops! I didn't see this discussion but quite by chance, just tinkered a little with the image. It's a little better now, but still not great. Tannin 10:59, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Cuzco100, please discuss your issues here

Cuzco100, kindly do not keep reinstating an old version of the article. You are destroying additional work made on the text by me and others. If you disagree with the content, please list your grievances here. This is the only way for us to proceed constructively. -- Viajero 13:02, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

This article says Fujimori divorced his wife Susana Higuchi in 1994; Higuchi's article itself says they divorced in 1998. Which one is correct? -andrewsg@eml.cc 28 Mar 2004

I think they separated in 1994 and divorced in 1998. Thanks for pointing out the discrepancy. -- Viajero 12:17, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)


I will put the {{npov}} notice again. I believe that this article is strongl biased against Fujimori. I believe that although he made mistakes, Fujimori changed the underlying economic structure of the country for the better. He undid a great part of the damage started by Velazco and "finished" by Alan Garcia. --AAAAA 06:22, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Biased against him? I'd say it's biased in his favour. Shorne 20:05, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Most of the article shows his "bad" side. Why do you state is biased in his favour? Furthermore, if you think it's biased, then you agree that the "Neutrality is Disputed".--AAAAA 12:43, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It seems that the article currently presents accurate and factual information in a tone that is very far from shrill. If AAAAA and Messhermit would like to add equally well-supported data that pleases them, they are free to do so. H

Kenya or Kenyo?

The Japanese Wikipedia writes Fujimori's name as Alberto Kenya Fujimori Fujimori (アルベルト ケンヤ フジモリ フジモリ) but it appears as Kenyo in the English Wikipedia (as well as in other languages). I did a Google search and it returned 738 results for "Alberto Kenya Fujimori", 476 for "Alberto Kenyo Fujimori" and none for アルベルト ケンヨ (Alberto Kenyo). Which one is correct? Sabbut 20:21, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have no idea about 'Kenyo' spelling, but the pronunciation of his KANJI name is 'Kenya'(and not Kenyo definitely). Maybe Peruvians read it like Kenyo? Hans castorp81 09:31, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This article is highly biased AGAINST Fujimori

I must say that most of this article is clearly parcial and doesn´t present an equal point of view aobut Fujimori. I believe that more research is needed before writing something agains a political figure or former statesman. Also, this article is clearly more focus in promoting him as "evil" rather than something more accurate. A rectification is needed. Messhermit 14:15, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I totally agree with Messhermit.--AAAAA 16:47, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Mayor modifications

I just saw that somebody remove the "Disputed Article" of the Page, and I decide to take action about it. First them all, I believe that this article is higly biased against the former president, since it lacks to present an NPOV.

I will explain them steep by steep:

- The self-coup was made in order to remove APRA and FREDEMO from power. Until 1992, Fujimori couln'd get any piece of legislation to pass Congress. The APRA was making this in order to have another chance to get elected in the 1995 elections, after a "failed" Fujimori Government.

- The Fujishock did not created a social disaster in Peru. It was proved that betwen 1989 and 1990, the Garcia Government artifially keep the prices of most basically needed products in order to create a sence of "stability" and at least give the party enough votes in congress to avoid being investigate. The Fujishock was the elimination of government subsides on this. Unfortunately, when the subsides dissapeared, the real cost was show.

- Terrorist activities that does not involved him where deleted

- He did not run away from Peru: He was representing Peru on a International Forum that was located in Brunei. The real motive for his self exile in Japan is that opposition parties already have control of the congress, and they were ready to impeach him. He submit his resignation, but this was rejected in a really controvertial vote on congress.

- The level of corruption during his government was high, but it was not the biggest in the country. The Garcia Administration was far more corrupt than his government.

- the ressecion on Peru was also caused by the Asian Crisis on 1997. At that point, Peru stop to grow. Privatisation was mostly of inefficient government owned companies. (i know this fact becouse my father worked in ENTEL, the telephone state company during the 80's and later on Telefonica)

- I don't think that the foreign opinions about the self coup add a NPOV. I see them as an attemp to create a sence that he use illegal force to seised power.

- Interpol image is of poor quality. If you have a good picture of Fujimori (as President) please put it here. If you want to put the interpol image, at least one of better quality.

About the accusation, I wouldn't count as a serious investigation the ongoing ones by the Toledo Government, since it has a poorly sence of Justice: Former President Alan Garcia is free to walk in the streets of Lima, even that he face crimes such as the Fronton Massacre. After 4 years, Accusations are the only thing that they have. Fujimori has not being condem of any of those.

Please state your point of view here if you have any question. Messhermit 04:58, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

  • Good Job!!! Totally agree with you. This article was highly NPOV, as if made only by Fujimori-haters. Be prepared for their response. If you need help, message me.--AAAAA 11:59, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This progress on NPOV is remarkable, i support you.Many people with no knowledge of Peruvian Politics may be badly informed about events in the 1990's on fujimori era over the internet write this kind of articles with a point of view clearly unaccurate and with rotten intentions.It is obviously known the current Government use it as a shield to excuse its own mistakes.As peruvian citizen and universitarian student i must say there isn't actually a perfect gobernment without any trace of corruption, i agree with you about the Brunei Forum, it must said that if he could decided to come back to Peru it woulded be a treat to his personal integrity and of course the congress it wouldn't be impartial to made an appropiate judgment.
    1. There are some corrections i wish to support too.
      1. We cant say former president Fujimori was a political figure outside of assistance by Montesinos, however it is well known Montesinos was the power behind the figure of Fujimori doing many kinds of crimes against humanity, hopefully Montesinos is behind the bars now, as a criminal. (Declarations from him must be completely examinated, as his declarations are completely untrustable and unrealiable).
      2. Facts about Fujimori are completely wrong, many opposers believe he was a man who used his etnicity to come to power to then take wealth and return to Japan, and obviously this point of view it was reflected on the previous version, the fact is six years of investigation on Fujimori supposed crimes, none of them could be appropiate explained no evidence could be found until today.

Please User:Viajero , if you have enything to discuss do it properly in the talk page and not reverting the article. That one was already labeled as Neutrality Dispute be wise and humble.HappyApple 17:27, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I am not interested in debating Peruvian partisan politics in this forum. The facts about Fujimori are well known and documented, and that is what the bulk of this article should contain, as well as a small amount of space for presenting various interpretations of those facts. Politicians are politicians; most of them are corrupt or incompetent, albeit in Peru or any other country. If Peru had a extradition treaty with Japan, Fujimori would now be behind bars, where he belongs, sharing the view of the Callao harbor with Guzmán and Montesinos, and answering for his crimes like the two of them. And if he ever returns to Peru, he will be arrested, no? As for the privatizations, it was well-documented, in the Peruvian media, that of the some seven billion dollars raised by privatizations during the Fujimori era, only one billion ended up in the Peruvian treasury; the rest got spent on election campaigns, bribes, etc. Moreover, many of those state-owned enterprises, like the Cerro de Pasco mines, which I have visited, were sold far below market value to Fujimori's cronies, who have made a forture exploiting them. In a country as poor as Peru, that really is a crime. -- Viajero 21:53, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The fact that you are talking in that way clearly show your lack of information about Peruvian Politics. Behind bars is a strong word to use, and in fact, you are no judge or jury to decide who belongs there and who does not. Besides that, Comparing Abimael Guzman (A mad man that torn apart my country for nearly 10 years) also show how pathetic is your efforts for demonize Fujimori. As of Montesinos, I'm sure he is cooperating, giving soooooo much information to the actual government that they destroy almos the political career of everyone who is against the Toledo Administration. Documented Media??? what Media are you talking about??? Since when the "Peruvian Media" is independent? Oh, I'm sure that is "FAIR AND BALANCE" as in American, isn't it?. May I remaind you that unfortunately Latin America medias are highly controversial?.
Besides that, here in Peru, We don't need your pitty. Poor or not, This country rise up after the economical suicide that the Garcia Government left us. Fujimori was only a small part of that. If you have lived in Peru during the 80's, I'm pretty sure you will not talk so freely about this. Let's put Garcia in the Jail where he belongs if that was the case. Oh, by the way, did you know that most of the peruvian mines are owned by American Transnationals since the Government of Fernando Belaunde? And that Most State Owned Companies where saturated with APRA Party members during the Garcia Government that made them almost inefficient? I'm sure you ignore those facts.
At least you didn't vandalize the page, that is something good. If you wanna make clear or debate some points, do it so... but do it without hate or preferences to anyone. Messhermit 01:59, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • I totally agree with Messhermit and HappyApple. I believe that Viajero is misinformed.--AAAAA 15:37, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

note to Messhermit

Hello,

I would like you to explain a number of the assertions you want to add to this article.

In late 2000, while representing Peru in a International Conference in Japan, he submitted his resignation by fax.

In everything I have read about Fujimori, I have never heard anything about a conference as his reason for going to Japan. Could you please provide a reference? A link to an article in online mainstream news site would be best.

Fujimori call for early elections, wich were due to be held on April 2001. He also stated that he will not be one of the candidates, since he will transfer the Government to the next President elected.

Are you saying he called for this election from Japan, after he had fled from Peru? This is the first time I have heard of this. A citation please.

Also, you want to remove this text:

many in hastily and poorly-organized privatizations. Of the estimated $9 billion raised in the process, only a small part ever benefited the Peruvian people; much of the money raised disappeared in Fujimori's patronage machine.

These were the findings of a congressional investigation led by Peruvian congressman Javier Diez Canseco in 2002. Do you deny these findings?

And you want to remove this text:

it did so at tremendous social cost; it generated massive poverty and pushed Peru's economy into a deep recession from which it has yet to recover.

The last time I looked, the poverty rate of Peru was about 55%, with some 15% living in extreme poverty. These figures are a lot worse than they were in 1990. What is the current unemployment rate in Peru? Is it even possible to measure it? We both know that the recent growth rates have been due to mining activities, a notoriously capital intensive activity, and one of little of any benefit for the vast majority of Peruvians (the profits leave the country). If Peru is not in a recession, then the word has no meaning.

And you want to remove this text:

Despite a constitutional prohibition of a third term of office, Fujimori insisted in declaring his candidacy for the 2000 elections.

Are you insisting that a third term was permissible under the consitituion of Peru?

And you want to remove this text:

It emerged in 2002, on the basis of forensic investigation and testimony of witnesses, that only one of the 14 rebels actually died in the assault; the others surrendered peacefully but were summarily executed by the commandos on the order of Vladimiro Montesinos.

Forensic investigations determined that the thirteen were executed in cold blood, and this was confirmed by eyewitnesses; this report was published in La Republica on 20 May 2002. Here is an excerpt:

General William admite que se dispararon tiros de gracia
Los comandos que el 22 de abril de 1997 rescataron a los 71 rehenes de la casa del embajador japonés en Lima "fueron instruidos para disparar a los subversivos en una parte vital del cuerpo", afirmó el general del EP José William Zapata, quien estuvo al mando de la preparación militar del los miembros del "Comando Chavín de Huántar". William explicó que la técnica que utilizaron los militares que participaron en la acción fue la de disparar a los subversivos hasta asegurarse de que estén "fuera de combate".
[...]
El general José William Zapata es uno de los 12 oficiales del Ejército que se encuentran con orden de detención preventiva, según lo determinó la jueza Cecilia Pollack Boluarte, por ser los presuntos responsables de los asesinatos de Nicolás Cruz Sánchez (a) "Tito", Luz Meléndez Cueva y Víctor Peceros Pedraza, terroristas que supuestamente se habían rendido antes de recibir los disparos que les causaron la muerte. [1]

Although I realize that Fujimori cannot be held responsible for all the actions of Montesinos, in this particular case, as you may recall, Fujimori took explict credit for the outcome, posing for the press amidst the bodies of the dead rebels. DO you remember those photos? Here is one: http://www.aprodeh.org.pe/mrta/web00.htm

And you want to remove this text:

"The order will be issued worldwide for human rights crimes for which he can be pursued and which do not expire," said Peruvian Justice Minister Fausto Alvarado.

Are you denying that Alvarado issued this arrest warrant?

Thank you for answering these questions first before reverting the text again. -- Viajero 12:17, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

For Viajero

Well, once again you are ignoring several facts about what happened in Peru during those years. Let me explined them to you in a easy way so you can understand a lot better about peruvia politics:

- Fujimori, as President of the Republic, was invited to a asiatic forum that was held in Brunei, 2001. During those days, The Opposition parties manage to impeach Dra. MArtha Hildebrant, President of the Congress and member of Peru 2000, Fujimori´s political Party. It was widely know that they would try to impeach Fujimori from Office. They did it 2 times, and in the last vote (wich was extremely controvertial) they succeded.

- 16 de septiembre: Fujimori llama a nuevas elecciones generales y dice que no participará. (Reuters y Dpa). Fujimori WAS PRESENT in Peru after the Vladi-video.

- Peruvian Congressman Javier Diez Canseco is one of the most untrusted members of this failed parlament. If you didn't know, he was an active member of the EXTREME Left during the times of the Civil War here in Peru. He was involve in several scandals during the 80's for his open suport to Sendero Luminoso. He was in China (representing Peru in that Communist country) at the time of the self-coup, and he lost his seat in the chamber of deputies after that. It is not surpricely that he had exagerated much of the information that he use and his open hate towards the former President is widely know. Besides that, Public enterprises here in Peru where already collapsing becouse of the saturisation of APRA Party Members in those institutions.

- Peru is in resecion for other motives. Since when international financial crisis does not affect some countries? you are ignoring the fact that during 1997 there was also a mayor political crisis her due to the hostages in the Japanese emmbassy.

- The Constitution of 1993 IS NOT retroactive. Fujimori was elected with the 1979 constitution. According to some lawyers, this make him possible to run for a 2th term under that constitution. (he was democraticaly eleccted in 1995 with the 1993 constitution.) It was controvertial, it's true. But most of the power struggle here was caused by the fact that the most important (before the 90's) political parties in Peru were already tired of being ignored by the electorated.

- If you are trying to sell me the idea that the poor terrorist were slaughter with no feeling by the Army, you are completely wrong. May I remind you that it was a war zone? that the poor terrorist where armed with ak-74 and that they have and RPG inside the embassy? Oh, of course that Aministia international will defend them to death, since is their job to do that. I agree with Colombian President Alvaro Uribe when he said that they only care about terrorist and not their victims. once again, this is a patetic effort by yours to rewrite history.

- That order was removed several days latter due to the fact that it created a political storm here, becouse Fomer President Alan Garcia is also accused with the same and is free walking around Lima. Due to political Pressure by the APRA, it was removed, and if you know, that minister was already fire from his post.

Please, read carefully and don't go around trying to rewrite history. We don't forgot ours, but it is sad to see how missinformed can be the world about what really happened here. OH, and by the way, Please, before reverting something please stated why are you reverting it. Messhermit 15:19, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

  1. added material re. election announcement of 16 Sept.
I already stated that below.
  1. regarding the impeachment. What is your point?
He resign from the presidency. He was impeach. that is all.
  1. Constitution of 1993. What is your point?
That it was not created in order to assure his reelection. The controversy was only present during 1998-1999
  1. Japan embassy: after laying down their arms, MTRA rebels had same right to fair trial as you or I
That is what you said. Sadly, most of the time is not true. MRTA and Sendero don't have the same Ideas.
  1. Javier Diez Canseco: that is your opinion
No its not, Go around and search a little but about this congressman.
  1. retraction of international arrest order. Citation please.
Read below, I already stated that.
-- Viajero 17:50, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

I take it somebody doesn't like mr. Fujimori? Lets make that a little less obvious in the article, shall we? (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 17:31, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A Knight named Fujimori

In medieval Japan were called Samurai different as Ronin which them got no king to serve, and the name of this knight is Fujimori. There are some reasons reflected in this article that lacks of neutrality point of view, users like viajero are trying to confuse people over the internet. There are no accurate proves what facts are just accusations without fundaments, which indeed is like among traitors, such as Bruto to Julius Caesar.

  • President Alberto Fujimori accepted to let to public knowledge his accounts on foreing banks, proving he is innocent.
  • All acussations have submitted a large scale of nonsense journalist attacks from big newspapers to over small pages on internet, and even portals of knowledge like Wikipedia.
  • Peruvian congress has useless investigated Fujimori without having a real prove, what they all have as same as media on Peru are entirely accusations without arguments.
  • Peruvian prosecutor Ugaz and his 30 member tean have been a useless investigation too, even to the cinism to see what was hinded behind the old house of Fujimori - Higuchi couple.
  • It is impossible to have so many delits as press say, facing this fact, without leaving any evidence of the crime, THE perfect robber? i dont think so.
  • Even Montesinos could have said any appropiate argument or just any clue against him, just yada yada yada ~
  • All the accusations against Fujimori have been done in base or arguments said by criminals and people on jail, obvious pressed by circumstanses. Such as ms. Pinchi Pinchi former Montesinos assistant which obviously does only for attracting mass media attention.
  • If all those arguments about the accounts Fujimori has, who know where they are?

6 years have already passed and there is no clue, we know about other so called presidents such as Alejandro Toledo which indeed they are guilty of borrowing money from national treasury to favoring his family.

  • Obviously the monarchy of Japan has analysed all this information against him, and knowing there is no arguments that has proves or evidence, let him stay in his heart-motherland
  • Peruvian politics such as Weisman even said Mig 29 were scrap, hopefully he admitted his mistake, and even said he wouldn't wish to said that.
  • About the gold ingots all is entirely false, based on proves by the BCR (Peruvian National Treasury Bank) , the institution proved there was no evidence that even a singe gold ingot could be left.
  • About the welfare retirements found , it is well known by media was already in shrink crisis since 15 years ago.
  • It is impossible to use the word criminal to a president that let Peruvian wealth and stability came after 100 years of reining corruption and insiduous wars internal and external ones.
  • President Fujimori has a universitarian title and studied in one of the most prestigious universities in the science field in Peru (UNI - Engieenering and Science National University), and even has been a tv personality during the 80's, a simple man, industrious, does this seems a figure to a criminal to you?.
  • Criminals are those who died on Japanese embassy in 1997 trying to let old and extinguished and rotten ideals from comunism back alive, they were terrorist which they kill people without asking, or even doing any judgement.
  • Montesinos managed by himself all by his interest, money he earned all these years has been adquired by insiduous operations held alongside drug and gun traffickers, and if you want a criminal there you got, hopefully as i stated he is behind the bars where he belongs.

Well people among on wikipedia, it's time to face the facts, never a single man in peruvian history was investigated so far like Fujimori.

  • More then ethnicity is Fujimori has shown to all of us the tradition it is in his veins, the brave and courage from admiral Togo which defeated the Russians in 1905, and integrity of war time Hirohito, and the peace and wisdom of late prime minister Junichiro Koizumi its time to let in your mind, known he is a real knight.HappyApple 21:39, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Lengthy essays not helpful

These alternating, lengthy essays are not very helpful in letting anyone who is not deeply engaged in this article sort out the (apparently several) matters under contention. I'll attempt to start a list of disagreements as to what the article should say, so that each can actually be discussed, but up till now I've had no involvement in the article, so I probably will not be able to do this comprehensively. Please, intersperse your comments relative to particular issues. Also, I strongly suggest that in matters where there is disagreement, we need to rely heavily on clearly cited sources. It is fully possible, indeed often desirable, for Wikipedia to indicate that disagreement exists on certain matters, and to cite the most authoritative view on each side. It is rarely appropriate to delete one authority's opinion in a controversial matter simply because another authority disagrees. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:44, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)

Hi Joe, for my part, I would like to see citations in support of two assertion of Messhermit:
  1. that Fujimori left Peru to go to Japan to attend an "international conference",
  2. that the international warrant for Fujimori's arrest issue by Justice Minister Fausto Alvarado was later retracted
I hope we can sort this stuff out without too much trouble. -- Viajero 23:08, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Messhermit, do you have some comparable priorities for citations from Viajero? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:58, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)

Yes I have them. This will finally settle down the issue about the Brunei Conference:

"Habiendo salido del país para asistir a una reunión internacional en Brunei, Alberto Fujimori anunció desde el Japón su renuncia a la presidencia de la República el 19 de noviembre. Dos días después, el 21 de noviembre, el Congreso de la República decidió no aceptar su renuncia, declarando la vacancia de la presidencia por incapacidad moral, asumiendo entonces el cargo el Presidente del Congreso, Sr. Valentín Paniagua Corazao."

  • Translation by Jmabel | Talk "Having left the country to attend an international meeting in Brunei, Alberto Fujimori announced from Japan his resignation from the presidency of the Republic November 19. Two days later, November 21, the Congress of the Republica decided not to accept his resignation, declaring the vacancy of the presidency on account of moral incapacity, with the President of the Congress, Sr. Valentín Paniagua Corazao, then assuming the charge [that is, taking on the responsibilities of the position]."

This one is more accurate:

"Luego de asistir en noviembre a la Cumbre de Líderes del Foro de Cooperación Económica Asia-Pacífico, celebrada en Brunei, país del sureste asiático, Fujimori hizo una escala en Japón, tierra natal de sus padres. El 20 de noviembre, luego de que la oposición tomó el control del Congreso, Fujimori envió su renuncia por fax al Congreso desde la habitación de un hotel en Tokio. El Congreso rechazó la renuncia y declaró a Fujimori como incapacitado moralmente para ejercer el cargo. El político moderado Valentín Paniagua fue juramentado dos días después."

  • Translation by Jmabel | Talk "After attending in November the Summit of Leaders of the Forum on Asian-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC), held in the souteast Asian country of Brunei, Fujimori traveled up to Japan, his parents' native land. November 20, after the opposition took control of Congress, Fujimori sent his resignatino by fax to the Congress from a hotel room in Tokyo. Congress rejected the resignation and declared Fujimori to be morally incapacitaed to exercise the charge [of the office]. The moderate politician Valentín Paniagua was sworn in two days later."

Regarding about the warrant

"Interpol had suspended an earlier warrant for Fujimori on February 27 (2003) after asking Peruvian officials to provide evidence tying the former president to a paramilitary death squad and to demonstrate the charges were not politically motivated"

"A Japanese Foreign Ministry spokesman said the ministry had not confirmed the Interpol order and added that Tokyo had not received any extradition request for Fujimori from Peru."

About this, you can read it on this webpage: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/americas/03/11/peru.fujimori.ap/ Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Messhermit: the two Spanish-language quotations you gave, where are they from? I believe that you didn't just make them up, but who are you quoting? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:07, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
No, they are not made up by me. this one (2th) mention what happened in those days -> http://www.cpj.org/CPJespanol/Ataques_00/peruSP.html
And the 1sth one -> http://stucchi.tripod.com/politica/decenio.htm
I don't agree with much of what is writed in those page, since most of they also show a POV vision of the former president. However, they also mention those events, wich are part of peruvian history and cannot be rewrited. Messhermit 00:48, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Points of dispute

In all of the following, I am taking the liberty of correcting grammar, spelling etc. If I have actually misunderstood what someone meant to say, my apologies in advance. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:13, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)

  • I notice that some of the reversions are as trivial as "Fujimori" vs. "he". Could people please all refrain from reverting such trivia while there is an actual dispute in progress? (Copy edits are fine, but please make them in separate edits from the substantive changes.)
  • Should the lead of the article mention that his resignation came "while representing Peru in a international conference" in Japan?
    • I imagine this should be uncontroversial, and if it will make someone happy, why not just let him/her have this one. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:13, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
    • The issue is whether Fujimori left Peru to go to a conference or left because of impending disaster, like getting arrested.-- Viajero 00:18, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • No, What Viajero is saying is totally Biased. The truth is that he attend the conference at Brunei and he found himself unable to stop the political storm that was happening in Peru on those days. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Ok, perhaps we can use something from this timeline I found:
  • November 10: Fujimori win approval from Congress for elections on April 8 2001.
  • November 13: Fujimori leaves for a visit to Brunei for the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum.
  • November 16: Valentin Paniagua, an opponent of Fujimori, takes over as president of Congress after the pro-Fujimori leadership lose a confidence vote.
  • November 17: Fujimori travels to Tokyo from Brunei for an international conference. He says he may run for a seat in Peru's Congress in April.
  • November 19: Prime Minister Federico Salas announces that Fujimori will resign by Tuesday. Government ministers present their resignation en bloc.
  • November 21: Paniagua becomes interim president to oversee elections on April 6, 2001. Congress declares Fujimori "morally unfit" to govern.[2]
  • -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Agreed upon and entered. -- Viajero 20:38, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Should state-owned enterprises be described as "inefficient"?
    • I would think that it is clear that this does not belong in the narrative voice of the article, but that it would be clearly appropriate to cite someone as calling them that. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:13, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
    • The Problem with State Owned Companies at the begining of the 90's is the fact that most of them were completely overcrowded by the former Administration (APRA). Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Gross generalization and neoliberal propaganda. Completely unacceptable. --
  • Neoliberalism is no justification for getting this fact out of the discussion. You are trying to label me of "Neoliberalist"? If that's so, once again I fell sorry for you. Messhermit

Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Agreed upon and entered. -- Viajero 20:38, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Economics
    • "...and pushed Peru's economy into a deep recession from which it has yet to recover."
      • At the very least, this needs an "as of". This either needs citation or needs statistics: is the present size of the economy demonstrably smaller than during the mid-1990s boom? Or is something else being asserted? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:13, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • My reading of the facts is that while Fujimori achieved short-term economic stability with the so-called "Fuji-shock", which we acknowledge in article, the long-term effects on the economy were negative; levels of poverty rose. Citations:
La situación de pobreza en el país ha crecido de 41.6% en 1986 a 54.1% en el 2000. En 1961 el producto per-capita (PBI) era de 740 dólares y en el año 2000 era de 841 dólares [La situación de pobreza en el país ha crecido de 41.6% en 1986 a 54.1% en el 2000. En 1961 el producto per-capita (PBI) era de 740 dólares y en el año 2000 era de 841 dólares. [3]
  • and
La Estrategia Nacional de Alivio a la Pobreza que infructuosamente intentó la dictadura fujimorista, la creación de la Mesa de Concertación de Lucha contra la Pobreza en el Gobierno de Transición y el establecimiento de programas especiales en la actual gestión gubernamental, para apuntar al mismo objetivo, refleja a todas luces que este fenómeno social continúa como el penoso rostro de la crisis y recesión que afecta al país.
A ello se aúna el maquillaje de las cifras del régimen fujimorista comprobado ahora por el presidente del Fondo Nacional de Compensación y Desarrollo Social (Foncodes) Pedro Francke Bavlle, y el jefe del Instituto Nacional de Estadística e Informática (INEI) Gilberto Moncada. Moncada dice que durante el gobierno fujimorista se ocultaron las reales cifras de la pobreza, como el incremento de este fenómeno que se produjo entre 1997 y el 2000 de 42,7% a 48,4%.. [4]
  • As you can see, Fujimori even tried to cover up the bad news. -- Viajero 00:18, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • No, They are not Viajero, Look for yourself and see how NPOV is the Phrase "Dictadura Fujimorista". If you can find a "independe" investigation, fine with me. But the fact that that words are in that article completely disregard them as indepedent. Highly Biased. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • The phrase "dicatura fujimorista" was added by the journalist who wrote the newspaper article, not Pedro Francke. You may disagree with the editorial point of view of La Republica, however you cannot dismiss the INEI statistics just like that. -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • It wouln't surprise me if the actual congress actually used that word. This congress is considerated one of the most irrelevants on Peruvian History, even nicknamed "congreso Chauchilla" Messhermit 09:07, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Agreed upon and entered. -- Viajero 20:38, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Auto-coup
    • "Fujimori was elected President, but he did not have a majority in Parlament. The APRA and FREDEMO were still in control of both chambers (Deputy and Senate) and they blocked several economic reforms."
      • I fail to see what is controversial about this, except perhaps the choice of the word "reforms". Am I missing something? Why is this in dispute? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:13, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • I think you need to reread the whole paragraph. This assertion is meant to justify the auto-coup, that he only did it because was "he had no choice". -- Viajero 00:18, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Once Again, Viajero Is using his own POV in order to demonize the former president. The Fact that the APRA wanted complete control of the parlament even if they failed to win the presidency was widely known:
Recordemos lo sucedió durante el inicio del gobierno fujimorista. Los parlamentarios de cambio 90, siguiendo ordenes de su líder, se unieron a los apristas en las votaciones decisivas para NO lograr denunciar constitucionalmente al ex presidente García. Gracias a Fujimori, García consiguió librarse de un juicio justo y necesario.
  • As you can see, Former President Garcia used Fujimori in order to avoid being judged. Later Fujimori realize that he was being used by the APRA, since after the accusations against Garcia failed to reach the Judiciary, APRA managed to block anything that Fujimori send to congress. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Every opposition party in the world tries to control congress or parliament. What is so special about that? You are just using partisan politics to try to justify the auto-coup. -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • And I'm seeing that you don't have a real argument to use against my precious sitation. Read and investigate much about that topic. You will find most of the information that clarify my arguments and ovbiously, reject yours. Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • Congreso Constituyente Democrático
      • I see no basis for translating this as "National Assembly". Am I missing something? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:13, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
      • Calling it "subservient" seems to me simply to be true, but if there is controversy, we should probably cite someone in particular as saying so. I do have to say, though, that I doubt the intellectual sincerity of an argument against this adjective: It looks to me like nitpicking in a matter that is not factually controversial, and is not the sort of thing inclined to make those who disagree with you ever give you the benefit of the doubt. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:13, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
      • The mistake is to call it "Subeservient". Since when a congress that give the president a mayority is called subservient? I don't understand why give it such a name if it was fairly elected, and they created a constitution that was approved by the Peruvian People on a Referenfum. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • "and ensuring his re-election"
      • This really could use some fleshing out. As a blind statement, it is simply unclear what it is asserting. How did this "ensure his re-election"? and is there a citable source on this? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:13, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
      • I agree. The controvercy about his re-election was not a question until the years 1998-1999. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Agreed upon and entered. -- Viajero 20:38, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • "Neoliberal" vs. "ultraliberal"
    • "Neoliberal" seems to me to be exactly the correct word. "Ultraliberal" is unclear in its meaning here. What is the objection to "neoliberal"? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:13, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
    • Fujimori applied what is call "Neoliberalism" here in Peru. I see no point in calling it "Ultraliberal" rather than distortioning some facts. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Agreed upon and entered. -- Viajero 20:38, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Allegations of corruption
    • Should the lead of the article mention "allegations of far-reaching corruption in his administration"?
    • Disputed text: "many in hastily and poorly-organized privatizations. Of the estimated USD $9 billion raised in the process, only a small part ever benefited the Peruvian people; much of the money raised disappeared in Fujimori's patronage machine."
      • Is there a citation to back this up? If so, it clearly belongs in the article, with citation. If not, it clearly does not belong in the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:13, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • Yes, here is a citation:
El proceso de privatización iniciado por el gobierno de Alberto Fujimori no trajo beneficios para el país, de acuerdo al balance de las cifras presentadas en una audiencia en que se analizó el tema. [...]
LOS COSTOS DE LA PRIVATIZACIÓN
El balance de las privatizaciones es negativo para el país, pues de los más de 9 mil millones de dólares que supuestamente debieron ingresar a las arcas fiscales, solo ingresaron más de 6 mil millones y ahora apenas quedan unos 223 millones, afirmó Javier Diez Canseco en un forum en el que analizó las consecuencias del proceso privatizador iniciado por el gobierno de Alberto Fujimori. Allí no quedó todo. El Estado asumió deudas por unos US$ 1,460 millones, a lo que hay que agregar deudas tributarias de las empresas privatizadas por más de US$ 600 millones, informó al cuestionar las bondades del modelo privatizador aplicado. [5]
and:
El legislador de Perú Posible Santos Jaimes Sérkovic preside la subcomisión que investigará al ex presidente Alberto Fujimori Fujimori y a 19 de sus ministros de Estado, por el supuesto mal uso de cerca de dos mil millones de dólares, según constan en las denuncias constitucionales números 28, 82 y 119. Según Santos Jaimes, quien instaló su grupo de trabajo, el dinero corresponde a las privatizaciones de las diferentes empresas y de la deuda exterior. Este dinero, señaló, habría sido invertido en compras de armamento militar durante la dictadura fujimorista. [6]
-- Viajero 00:29, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Once Again Viajero is poorly informed. See how (once again) the phrase (Dictadura Fujimorista) is present in those "investigations"? I believe that at least that source of information is higly POV, and that it doesn't provide an accurate picture about privatisations. The current government has sponsored many of this investigations, but none of them have manage to demostrate something that can be argue against Fujimori. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • These documents are on Peruvian government and quasi-government websites. It is a fact that many Peruvians regard the post-auto-coup period as a dictatorship because Fujimori gave himself illegal powers. Canseco and Sérkovic led congressional investigations of Fujimori's privatizations. Are you saying the Peruvian congress is unreliable? -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Go ahead and look for the approval rating about this congress. You will find that most of the population believe that is unreliable and completely inefficient. About Government sources, They are of no use for this webpage: most of them are controled by most of his political enemies. Besides, peruvian population is still divide about his legacy, so until you gave me a citation about 50% or more that think that he was a dictator, PROVE IT. Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • Messhermit, you seem to be misunderstanding the nature of Wikipedia. It is not a matter of proving that he was a dictator, it is a matter of citing someone reasonably authoritative as saying so, and being clear whom you are citing. And if you have a comparable citation to the contrary, then that also belongs in the article. Where there is a difference of opinion, we try to represent the clearest statements of all sides.

Also, being popular does not mean one was not a dictator. The two matters are incommensurate. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:09, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

    • I don't understand your point here Jmabel. Are you saying that just becouse somebody said that he was a dictator a that person currently holds power, it is correct to said that is right? I'm only asking Viajero to Prove me those statements with fairly accurate and Independent investigation. Regarding the nature of Wikipedia, Go ahead and look for my previous collaborations. I only try to reach a NPOV stand. Messhermit 09:07, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Agreed upon and entered. -- Viajero 20:38, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • "signed a peace agreement with Ecuador on the border" vs. "signed a peace agreement with Ecuador"
    • I do not understand what the dispute here is about. In fact, I do not even understand what the second alternative is supposed to mean. Is it saying that the agreement was signed at a location on the border (which seems to me trivial, and should be omitted)? Or is it saying that the agreement pertained to the border, in which case, fine, let's get it in there, but let's word it better. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:13, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • 2000 election
    • "Despite a constitutional prohibition of a third term of office"
      • I see from the discussion above that one side thinks this is simple, and the other thinks it is more complicated. I also see from the edit history that the side that thinks it is more complicated seems to want to deal with it in the article by complete omission. That is obviously not appropriate. We probably need to quote different authorities on which constitutional provisions applied, and let readers draw their own conclusions from who said what, but I cannot imagine a valid argument for ignoring the issue. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:39, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
      • The constitution of 1993 is not retroactive. That is a fact. Fujimori first term was under the 1979 constitution, and according to the 1993 one he did not break the constitution by proposing huis candidacy on 2000. Controvertial, yes. Inconstitutional, no. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • "The scandal exploded into full force when on the evening of September 14, 2000, the cable TV station Canal N broadcast a video of Montesinos appearing to give a bribe of $15,000 to opposition congressman Alberto Kouri for his defection to Fujimori's Perú 2000 party."
      • This seems extremely specific, clear, and amounts to a citation. What, if anything, is the argument for the alternate, less specific wording? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:39, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
      • It could be arranged to be less POV. But I will also add that the Video was bought by the FIM, an opposition party for (some sources say) at least 50,000 USD. That is also part of the truth about the Video.
  • Citation please -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • I'll give you your citation:

En su relato, Barrera da cuenta del precio inicial de 500 mil dólares y luego de un millón de la misma moneda que se planteó como precio del video, con un claro fin utilitario.

      • Conversely, why not mention that the video-tape was nicknamed Vladivideo?
    • The allegations severely compromised Fujimori, who on 16 September announced a new election in which he said he would not participate..."
      • Is there something controversial about this? If so, I don't see what it is. Why is this in dispute? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:39, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
      • Don't Known. Ask Viajero. He can't Rewrite history in that fact. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
      • I added this after Messhermit requested it. Not controversial. -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
      • You did not. You just reverted to your version every change that I made to the page. Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • "...but the damage could not be contained and he fled to Japan from where he faxed his resignation to the Peruvian Congress..."
      • "but the damage could not be contained" seems to me to be unnecessary introduction of POV. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:39, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
      • Agree. It is clearly a POV. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
      • Ok. -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
      • "fled" seems to me to be unnecessary introduction of POV. It is probably more appropriate to say something to the effect that he took advantage of the occasion of an international conference in Japan. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:39, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
      • Agree. He did not fled from the country. He was representing PEru in Brunei when all this happened. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Ok -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • "...the Peruvian Congress, which rejected [Fujimori's resignation] and voted on November 17 to remove him from office after condemning him as morally unfit to hold the presidency."
      • Is there something controversial about this? If so, I don't see what it is. Why is this in dispute? The alternate wording just seems less well put, and not substantively different. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:39, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
      • Not for me. That is what happened on those days. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Ok -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • "...and deeply concerned that he would be impeached..."
      • Is there a citation for this? As it stands, it looks like a projection as to what Fujimori was thinking. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:39, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
      • I agree that is controvertial. But we must remember that the main opposition parties were already demanding that, and by lossing the Parlament, Fujimori would have a fair idea that they would procede to do that. If you wanna arrange it in another way, fine with me. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • "Fujimori called for early elections, which were due to be held on on April 2001..."
      • This is unclear. Is that the date of the early elections, or the date of the elections they replaced? I presume inclusion of this is uncontroversial, once it can be made clear. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:39, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
      • Fujimori constitutional Term was due to expire on July 28, 2005. By calling to early elections he was due to give up the presidency on July of 2001. The elecctions were schedule for april 2001 too. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • "He also stated that he will not be one of the candidates, since he will transfer the Government to the next President elected. Because of this, his political party Peru 2000 lost control of Congress."
      • Is there something controversial about this? If so, I don't see what it is. Why is this in dispute? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:39, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
      • Not by me. Ask Viajero. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Ok -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • "In an election rerun on May 28, 2001, Toledo was elected president in elections widely acknowledged to be clean and fair. He was sworn in on July 28."
      • Is there something controversial about this? If so, I don't see what it is. Why is this in dispute? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:39, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
      • Again, not by me. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Ok -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • "campesinos" vs. "peasants"
    • In a Latin American context, these terms are exactly equivalent in meaning, right? Why is this a matter of dispute? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:56, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
    • Not by me. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Ok -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Sendero, MRTA, etc.
  • "MRTA terrorist" vs. "MRTA rebel"
    • I would lean strongly toward "rebel", "armed faction" or some such. "Terrorist" is a totally loaded word. Using it without indicating who characterizes them as such is inherently POV. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:56, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
      • On second thought, "rebel" is probably not correct either, it suggests more political legitimacy than they should probably be granted. Word stricken above. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:40, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
    • Terrorist is somebody who use terror in order to achieve his political goals. If that was not the main idea that MRTA was doing, then what they were doing on the Embassy. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Rebel please, "terrorist is word to avoid" -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • This is really annoying. Go ahead and try to use that in the Palestinian Conflict, or about the Iraqui Insurgency. Here in Peru we have enought with people like "Lori Berenson" who tries to make us believe that those who use terror are rebels ore guerrillas. Please, As a Peruvian, excusing those who use terror to achieve its polical goals is offending. Messhermit
    • So you are saying you should be allowed to use this inflammatory word, but you understand why it's prohibited in matters where you don't have a partisan position? Sorry, but this is exactly why this is a word to avoid. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:15, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
    • Ok, so you are saying that I cannot be allowed to use the word terrorist, but in the West Bank Article , The word terrorism is stated 3 times, including the one saying Palestinian terrorism. So just becouse for some (badly informed) people don't considerated those as terrorist, I can't be allowed to stated what most peruvians think about those grups? I believe that that is acting with a double standar and with clearly a POV. Go ahead and try to convince a Colombian that the FARC and the ELN are rebel groups too. Messhermit 09:07, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There is a line between terrorist, and terrorism.--Dbroadwell 06:51, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • "The report indicates most atrocities occurred during the 1980-1990 period, during the gevernment of Fernando Belaunde Terry (AP), and Alan Garcia (APRA)."
    • Is this disputed? Or was it just caught up in the edit wars? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:56, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
    • Not by me. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • This doesn't belong in this article and I removed it. It can go in History of Peru. -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Well, I think its important to put it here, since this proves that much of the violance didn't started with Fujimori. It should be there. Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • What are the arguments for including/excluding the photo of "Fujimori viewing corpses of MRTA rebels in the aftermath of the Japanese embassy hostage crisis"? Similarly "Fujimori was seen on television next to the bodies of the dead rebels, and used the event to bolster his image as being tough on terrorists."
    • Offhand, these look appropriate to me to include. It's not like Fujimori was there by accident. He must have intended his presence as a statement. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:56, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
    • that is higly POV. That must be analize in another topic. Those photos are not relevant for the topic. Messhermit
  • Entirely suitable and appropriate. Fujimori did it for PR purposes, right? -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • No its not. Viajero, stop using those "Human Rights" "independent" information to support your statements. Those are clearly Highly controvertial and clearly a POV. Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • Messhermit, I don't see your point here. I assume there is no question of the authenticity of the photo, or of the fact that Fujimori deliberately put himself in the position for it to be taken. Given that, what, precisely, is the argument against using it. "Controversial" can't simply mean "I don't like it". It has to mean that there is actual controversy, based on some principle, such as factuality, editorial standards, etc. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:25, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
  • The same can be argue against that Jbamel. Why don't we put the photos of George W. Bush showing the death bodies of Saddam Hussein's Sons? That is acting clearly against the person involved, gaving the Reader already an idea that Fujimori was a monster, clearly trying to clear of guilty (and glorifying) to those MRTA Terrorist. Messhermit 09:07, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • "In one case, fourteen members of the armed forces were tried... and sentenced... [but] did not spend a day in jail and returned to active service."
    • Is this in factual dispute? (A citation would certainly be nice.) Or is the argument that it is not relevant to Fujimori? or what? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:56, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • "only one of the 14 rebels actually died in the assault; the others surrendered peacefully but were summarily executed by the commandos on the order of Vladimiro Montesinos" vs. "at least one of the terrorists surrendered, but was summarily executed by the commandos on the order of Vladimiro Montesinos"
    • This major difference should be easily settled by citation. -- 23:56, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • Ok, here is one that indicates that at least eight were executed:
    • Recent forensic investigations, however, have established that eight of the guerrillas were apparently shot in the head after capture or while defenseless because of injuries. A Japanese former hostage declared that he saw one of the guerrillas, Eduardo Cruz Sánchez, alive and in custody after the raid. Forensic examination revealed that Cruz died from a single bullet to the back of the neck. [7]
-- Viajero 01:05, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Search for that Hostage, and you will find some interesting information about him. You will find that he is not impartial about the history of the embassy. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Sorry, I won't do your work for you. -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • I hope that was a yoke. Becouse if it was not, I would considerated as offensive. Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • "'The order will be issued worldwide for human rights crimes for which he can be pursued and which do not expire,' said Peruvian Justice Minister Fausto Alvarado."
    • Citation would be nice, but is there any dispute as to the factuality of this? And if not, what is the argument against its inclusion? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:56, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • Ok, here: Reuters, 8 March 2003 [8] -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • THAT's IT. Using Lori Berenson's Web page to support something??? As a Peruvian, I'm offended about how you can use that as a "independent" source of information. May I remind you that the Toledo Administration already sentenced her to 30 years in jail and that the OEA and another International Court say that her trial was fair enough???? PLease, with this, you have basicaly no idea about what has happened in Peru in the last years. Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Many Americans are offended at seeing an American citizen tried in military tribunes by hooded judges under questionable laws and held in prison under barbaric conditions. -- Viajero 12:48, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Regarding about the warrant

"Interpol had suspended an earlier warrant for Fujimori on February 27 (2003) after asking Peruvian officials to provide evidence tying the former president to a paramilitary death squad and to demonstrate the charges were not politically motivated"

"A Japanese Foreign Ministry spokesman said the ministry had not confirmed the Interpol order and added that Tokyo had not received any extradition request for Fujimori from Peru."

About this, you can read it on this webpage: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/americas/03/11/peru.fujimori.ap/ Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

  • You are mixing things up. The warrant was issued but NOT retracted. Interpol may have had doubts about whether it had the jurisdiction. Later, in 2004, an extradition petition was submitted to Japan. -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • "but it is not clear how the petition can prosper, as Peru and Japan do not have an extradition treaty."
    • I don't think this is well worded, but ti seems to me that the lack of a extradition treaty is worth mentioning in the article. Is there any argument against it? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:56, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • This is an important point. -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • I would gladely agree if its rewrite it in a NPOV way. In that State, It is clearly a controversy and I will not acccept it. Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Attorney General Nelly Calderón also travelled to Tokyo to argue Peru's request for Fujimori's extradition before Japan's judicial authorities. She detailed Fujimori's crimes to the Japanese authorities and pointed out irregularities in the former president's dual Peruvian-Japanese nationality."
    • Again, citation would be nice, but I doubt there is any factual dispute. Relevance is obvious. It's hard for me to imagine an argument against including this. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:56, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)
    • But is a POV. I don't think that is important, but if you want to keep it, fine with me. (unsigned)
  • Include -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Since when do you decide what is included and what is not? leave it out the article until this dispute is resolved, this is controvertial also. Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • As remarked above, controversial in what sense? Just that you don't like it? That is not a valid argument. Messhermit, are you saying this is factually inaccurate? Or what? Assuming it is true, its relevance seems obvious. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:25, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)
  • Most of those accusations were already disregard by the Japanese Government, and add nothing to the controversy. And is not that I don't like it. Plese, I would like to you, Jmabel, to retract that precious statement. Messhermit 09:07, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Starting from "On November 14, 2003...", there seem to be some very minor differences in the next few paragraphs. On a quick read, Viajero's version seems slightly clearer. Are there any matters of substantive dispute here? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:26, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
  • The problem with Viajero Modifications is that are poorly informed or badly supported. that is what concern me. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • "...he still has many supporters" ... vs. "he remained the most popular potential presidential candidate"
    • If the latter is factual (again, there is no citation) it seems to me worth saying. Both versions say "...with an approval rating of 17% in the polls." Is 17% really the most popular? If so, wow. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:26, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
    • Not in that Sence. President Toledo has 6% of approval rating, for example. The Approval rating what you are mentioning is about the next presidential elections here in Peru. 17% is how much of the electorade is willing to vote for him. Another Example of this is Former President Alan Garcia, who has the same %. I belive that He is still supported by 17% of the Electorade is much better. (as March 2005). Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • I have reservations about including such ephemeral poll information. In any case, I haven't seen support for asserting he most popular candidate at the moment. Citation please. -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • I´ll give you citation once again.

De acuerdo con una encuesta difundida el mes pasado en Lima, Toledo registró en diciembre un 8,1% de aprobación, lo que constituye el más de bajo nivel de su gestión, mientras un sondeo publicado el 18 de diciembre otorgó a Fujimori un 17,1% de popularidad, frente al 10,2% en octubre y al 12,8% en noviembre.

  • "the population in general" vs. "another section of the population".
    • Unless someone has a poll to cite showing over 50%, the latter wording seems correct. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:26, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
    • I agree. the Quote "Another Section of the Population" is more NPOV. Messhermit
  • The latter. -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • "...a vast network of corruption and patronage was established, unparalleled in the country's history..." vs. " a network of corruption was created, headed by his associate Montesinos"
    • I think that "vast" and "unparalleled in the country's history" are probably true, but probably inappropriate to state in the narrative voice of the article. Can't we find someone to quote on this? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:26, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
    • Totally Disagree. The Garcia Administration was by far the most corrupt government in Peruvian history, with massive Human Right Violations and Corruption (Remember the "Dollar MUC"?). Every Government hace its own levels of corruption, I will not argue that. But saying that Fujimori was the most corrup is simply ignoring the fact that the previous administration was far more involved in corruption cases. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • "...headed by his associate Montesinos" seems a bit like an effort to deflect responsibility from Fujimori personally. I don't know what is the right thing to say here, but this seems like a POV choice of wording. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:26, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
  • Montesinos is another topic. It was widely know that he was behind most of the corruption acts that happened during the Fujimori Administration. However, It is not known if the former president was involved in any of those. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Untrue. Fujimori is considered the "intellectual author" of a number of human rights violations, like the Barrios Altos massacre, as well as other illegal activities. These are specified in the extradition request given to Japan. -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • TRying to rewrite Peruvian History Again? No investigation has reach to that conclussion. Those are merely especulations. It is sad how you use the Barrios Altos Massacre to justify your statements. Please Jmabel, exclude that paragraph until this can be solved. Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • a lengthy trial in Lima "that is looking into the breadth and depth of corruption of the Fujimori regime."
    • The prose here seems a little purple. Something more concrete as to the charges would be better. A trials presumably relates to specific charges and is not an open-ended investigation of corruption. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:26, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
    • Agree. just corruption is enough. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • Ok -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • "criminal charges" vs. "charges"
    • "criminal charges" seems entirely accurate, what is the argument against? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:26, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
    • I don't Agree. Most of those accusation are poorly based and most of them have not prosperated. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • That is your opinion. That they have no prospered might have something to do with the fact that Peru can't extradite Fujimori.. -- Viajero 02:28, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • That is not my Opinion and they have not prospered not even in Peru. No Judge have reach a veredict regarding the former president and has nothing to do with the fact that he cannot be extraditate. The Japanesse government has merely said that it doesn't have relevant arguments to extraditate. Please, Stop saying that is my opinion. THAT is annoying. Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I believe this is reasonably complete, but feel free to add issues I may not have identified. Please keep it concrete and related to the actualy wording of the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:26, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for saparating this and taking all this time to try to reach compromise. I will continued to support a NPOV on this article. Corrections can be made, but with really accurate sources. Messhermit 16:47, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Messhermit, a few of your comments seem to assume that I am going to write things into the article. Except for fixing grammar, etc., I intend mostly to stay out of trying to write this myself. My chosen role here is to enumerate the points of disagreement, try to facilitate the process of reaching agreement on at least some of them, and make comments on things where I have an opinion. Period. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:42, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

If you believe that I was trying to force you to choose a side on this, You are totaly wrong. I though that since you were out of this controversy, you could act as a judge and stated or replace something that was already settled. I'm deeply sorry is my pervious statedment offend you in someway. Messhermit 09:07, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

But I also said that modifications made by Viajero without disscusing them will be coniderated as irrelevant and reverted to a previously more NPOV article. That is all. Messhermit 09:07, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The US, The UK and the EU said that MRTA and Sendero are TERRORIST GROUPS =

For Viajero, Let me gave you an explanation of what is Sendero Luminoso:

"Otto Reich, enviado especial del ¨Presidente George Bush, informó que la posibilidad de que Sendero Luminoso vaya a retomar sus actividades terroristas ha causado "preocupación" en Washington, donde consideran que Perú puede tener la seguridad de contar con la ayuda de Estados Unidos en su lucha contra la subversión. Reich formuló estas declaraciones a propósito de las informaciones de un posible rebrote del terrorismo en el Perú, cuyo gobierno tiene una popularidad de menos del 10%. Por otro lado, el congresista Luis Iberico (FIM) calificó de presión inaceptable la huelga de hambre declarada por los cabecillas subversivos recluidos en la base naval del Callao. Indicó que sus reclamos para el retiro de los locutorios no son válidos, y anotó que este tipo de medidas son por la seguridad del país. "Primero está la seguridad de todos los ciudadanos y luego se evaluará lo que puedan pedir los subversivos", aseveró."

It is here -> http://www.cajpe.org.pe/cronolog/mayoperu8.htm

By the way, Please stop using web pages as the one of Lori Berenson. Any Peruvian will be offended when they heard about this woman, a terrorist who has no right to come and harm our country. Messhermit 04:55, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It would be appropriate to say that MRTA is characterized by the UK, US, EU, and the Peruvian government as a terrorist group. It would not be appropriate to say blindly that they are a terrorist group.
As for Lori Berenson "even the Devil can quote scripture". If, for example, her site reproduces a document, it is perfectly valid to cite it, just as it would be perfectly valid to cite a document posted on a right-wing paramilitary sympathizer's site. The fact that a Reuters' dispatch is quoted on Berenson's site doesn't invalidate the fact that it is a Reuters' dispatch, unless your claim is that it had been misquoted. There is no rule that we can only quote those who are generally agreed to be nice people. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:42, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)


It worried me that your previous statement failed to provide a reasonable answer and also try to gave a distortionated POV about this. Excusing those who use Terror to achieve its political goals (Most of the Wolrd would agree that it doesn't matter if they are Right-Wing, Left-Wing, Anarkist, Eco-Terrorist or whatever) is wrong. Period. Peruvians are very concern and don't forgot about what Sendero and the MRTA truly are: Terrorist Organizations. What type of "rebels" plant car-bombs on Neighboors? Maybe you don't know about the Talara Bombing on Lima, or the destrucction of elecctric towers, leaving the capital withouth electricity for hours, and more recently, another carbomb during the visit of George Bush on 2001. It is sad to see how some people can get trick by those murders and even get defended. If you are so concern with the "neutrality" that the word Terrorism, go ahead and also modify the West Bank Article. And most other article that talk about that. The fact that you are using a double morale to defend this is clearly POV. Regarding Lori Berenson, Most of us don't forget her defient words, claiming that he was supporting a revolution. I can't see how her oppinions can be of any use in achieving a NPOV, but only to add controversy. Messhermit 09:07, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There are very, very few hard and fast rules in Wikipedia. There are, however, a number of useful guidelines for handling controversial topics, such as terrorism (see Wikipedia:Words to avoid). A substantial number of editors, such as Joe and me, prefer to avoid labelling people "terrorist" for reasons explained on that page and discussed at great length on many Talk pages; namely, that it is not a objective, scientific term and it depends largely on your point of view. My preference is to avoid using it where possible and use the worda "rebel" and "militant", and to speak instead of "terrorist acts", which is less ambiguous. How about simply presenting the facts and letting readers be the judge of whether people are "terrorists"? It is a form of intellectual laziness to simply moralize about these phenomena; it is far more useful to try to understand them. It would, IMO, behoove you to spend less time ranting about SL and MRTA and more time understanding why they came into being. Indeed, SL and MRTA have been erradicated, but the societal problems that led to their creation have not been addressed, and in fact today Peru is demonstrably worse off in many ways than it was ago in the 1970a. So, theoretically at least, it is possible that violent revolution returns to Peru some day. This time you managed to destroy it. Next time, it might destroy you.
As for the use of term "terrorist" in Middle East articles, this is and has been an extremely controversial matter for as long as Wikipedia has existed. -- Viajero 14:42, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

-- Viajero 14:42, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Judges all over the world have already condemn the actions of MRTA and SEndero. They have label them of terrorist and even Narco-terrorism (just like the FARC's) Of course, the fact that you are using the term "rebel" only in the case of MRTA and SEndero,shows that you have no knownledge of the atrocities that they cause in Peru. Most of peruvians will definetely not agree with your vision of "Armed Revolution". This was a Civil War that torn appart my country for nearly 10 yeas. As for next time "it will manage to destroy me"... that is just a pathetic rethoric and I pray that it was just a desperate attack in order to counter my arguments. Do you have any idea of what you are talking by saying that? I assume you not, since you have talked so freely. It will mean a genocide of the seice of Cambodia at least. You have already proved me that you have no knownledge of Peru AT ALL, and your opinion towards we used to be better on the 70's are completely irrelevant. Go ahead and if you are so impartial, change the word terrorism in the Palestine article, ok? Please, stop telling to us, peruvians how we must call this terrorist, The fact that our civil war is not as widely know as the palestinian conflict doesn't give you any authority to try to appologise those murders. you are acting of bad faith and with a double standar to judge things. Messhermit 15:42, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't think "rebel" is particularly appropriate either. I'd say "armed faction", "armed group" or some such. But that's a secondary issue. Messhermit, I see no sign that Viajero is acting in bad faith, and would suggest that you withdraw the accusation. There are edits from each of you that I think represent POV, and I've called them as I see them; so far, he has been far more open to reconsidering than you have.
The article "Palestine", which you allude to, does not contain any form of the word "terror". The only occurrence of that word in the article "Palestinian" is a link to a separate article "Palestinian terrorism". "Palestinian" is an article with a dispute tag on it; even that begins very cautiously: "The term Palestinian terrorism is commonly used for terrorist acts committed by Palestinian citizens and Palestinian organizations against Israeli Jews, and occasionally against nationals of other countries. Valid or not, "Palestinian terrorism" is often regarded..." There is a parallel article, also disputed, entitled "Israeli terrorism".
About the only article on a major Israeli politician that I can readily find that uses the word "terror" or "terrorist" with reference to Palestinian actions is "Yitzhak Rabin", which uses it with reference to the Entebbe hijacking. That is a long way from the peppering of the word through the present article. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:54, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

Constitutionality of third term

I have found on article in the New York Times which provides a useful, non-partisan analysis of the third-term issue:

December 28, 1999

Peru's Chief to Seek 3rd Term, Capping a Long Legal Battle

By CLIFFORD KRAUSS

BUENOS AIRES, Dec. 27 -- President Alberto K. Fujimori of Peru announced his candidacy for an unprecedented third term today, arguing that his country needed him to guarantee an end to terrorism and to complete its economic recovery.

President Fujimori's announcement capped four years of legal and political maneuvering to overcome a constitutional bar against three consecutive presidential terms.

"We do not want to return to the past," he said in an address to the nation. "That is the reason for my candidacy. Another option may have been preferable but there are no alternatives."

The son of Japanese immigrants, President Fujimori, 61, shocked the political establishment by winning election in 1990 and was easily re-elected five years later. During his decade of rule, he has brought the country's traditional hyperinflation under control, greatly reduced the cocaine trade and negotiated a settlement to a border conflict with neighboring Ecuador.

His enduring popularity, however, comes from the retreat of two guerrilla groups that once controlled wide swaths of territory but now can do little more than mount small, isolated attacks. In his speech today, President Fujimori pledged to "extinguish every vestige of terrorism from the country" in his next term.

But President Fujimori's often autocratic methods -- including replacing the Congress and the Supreme Court by decree in 1992 and taking a television station away from a critic of his government -- have attracted widespread criticism among human rights groups. Most recently, critics have accused him of manipulating and even replacing judges and election officials who opposed his re-election bid.

The 1993 Constitution prohibits a third presidential term. But three years later, supporters of President Fujimori who control the Congress pushed through a law that excluded him from the prohibition since his first term began before the document was written. Over the last two years, the Congress dismissed three senior judges who opposed the law and then blocked a popular referendum intended to block his re-election.

[...]

From: http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/americas/122899peru-fujimori.html

And also this, in the Miami Herald:

March 1, 2000

Peru's president accused of illegal campaign ploy

[...]

CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUE

Presidential candidate Luis Castaneda Lossio, third in the polls, cited the allegedly forged signatures as an example of how Fujimori and his allies ``trample the constitution and remain on the margins of the law.

Most opposition candidates maintain that the president's candidacy is unconstitutional.

Fujimori was first elected in 1990. During his first term he dissolved Congress and convoked a Constitutional Congress to write a new constitution, which permitted reelection. It was approved in a 1993 referendum.

Fujimori won reelection in 1995 with 64 percent of the votes. Fresh off that victory, his allies in Congress interpreted the new constitution to mean that he had been elected only once under it and, therefore, could run again in the 2000 election.

[...]

From: http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/peru/ploy.htm


-- Viajero 11:56, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

On the internet you will find interesting even some more interesting information.

La Resolución N° 243-2000 de la Comisión Ejecutiva del Ministerio Público, de hace algunos días, ha señalado "la complejidad de la investigación" llevada a cabo por la doctora Trabucco, ha advertido que la denuncia se funda tan sólo en declaraciones testimoniales y ha indicado que la falsificación de un millón de firmas no es verosímil ni le puede constar a tales testigos

from http://www.cronicaviva.com.pe/sis/nota.php?id=13161 Messhermit 15:26, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Also, Information about the 2000 Elections (wich where controvertial by both sides)

EL número de firmas presentadas por los partidos políticos para inscribirse en las elecciones generales del 2000 ascendió a 22'523,345. Extraña cifra si se repara en que el padrón electoral de entonces llegaba apenas a los 14'562,468 inscritos.

Por algo, tres partidos (Perú Posible Current Government, CODE-Renovación y Perú 2000) tienen denuncias en el Poder Judicial por falsificación de firmas, lo que sugiere que no sólo está comprometido Perú Posible en el asunto.

La amenaza sobre el sistema político es seria, por más que algunos políticos vean irregularidades en un solo lado. Cabe preguntarse entonces, ¿cuántas firmas de las más de 22 millones presentadas el 2000 corresponden al resto de partidos?

from http://www.caretas.com.pe/2005/1857/articulos/margarita.html Messhermit 15:26, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Also, on this webapage of internation jurist you will find that the reelection Once again as I stated, was controvertial and not inconstitutional.

Nota: La Ley 26657 fue aprobada por el Congreso de la República, promulgada por el Poder ejecutivo y publicada en el Diario Oficial "El Peruano" el 23 de agosto de 1996. Contra esta norma se interpuso una acción de inconstitucionalidad ante el Tribunal Constitucional. En la sentencia respectiva, el Tribunal declaró "inaplicable" para el Presidente de la República Alberto Fujimori los alcances de esta ley.

from http://www.cajpe.org.pe/rij/bases/legisla/peru/lh-rij14.HTMl Messhermit 15:26, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Any other "independent" investigation? Messhermit 15:26, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Perceptions of AF's regime: Totalitarian? Autocratic? A dictatorship? A mafia?...

La Republica,4 January 2000:

UPP hace enérgico llamado a la unidad de la oposición
Unión por el Perú, frente a la ilegal candidatura del ingeniero Alberto Fujimori y su convalidación igualmente ilegal en días pasados por el Jurado Nacional de Elecciones, expresa a la opinión pública nacional e internacional lo siguiente:
1. La maquinaria estatal fujimorista continúa con su pretensión de entronizar en el país un régimen autoritario de larga duración y un sistema económico antinacional al servicio de los intereses transnacionales. El control de las instituciones básicas (poder Judicial, Legislativo, FFAA, Ministerio Público, etc.), el empleo abierto y descarado de recursos del Estado, el control de algunos medios de comunicación, la persecución a la oposición, la impunidad para los corruptos y violadores de los derechos humanos y, ahora último, el uso de lúmpenes para agredir a todos aquellos que no comulgan con la verdad oficial, nos muestran que los peruanos nos enfrentamos, luego del intento criminal del senderismo, a la más grande amenaza por imponer un sistema totalitario en nuestra patria. El triunfo del fujimorismo significaría la consolidación de un gobierno que, tras un fachada aparentemente democrática, ejerce el poder de manera clandestina, empleando para ello métodos policiacos.
2. Frente a esta amenaza totalitaria, a la que se suma un manejo económico que prometiendo prosperidad a los peruanos los empobrece más, Unión por el Perú, consciente de su responsabilidad, hace un llamado a las fuerzas de la oposición democrática a buscar la más amplia unidad. Sólo unidos podremos derrotar a la dictadura fujimorista e iniciar la construcción de un país democrático, desarrollado y justo, capaz de enfrentar colectivamente los retos de la globalización. Es hora, pues, de deponer intereses de grupo y escuchar el reclamo de millones de peruanos que aspiran a un país unido y a un régimen democrático. La UPP reitera, en este contexto, su voluntad unitaria.
3. Finalmente, Unión por el Perú reitera su confianza en el pueblo y lo llama a reflexionar sobre las consecuencias para nuestra patria que significa la instalación de un sistema totalitario. Estamos convencidos, como siempre lo hemos estado, que los peruanos sabremos responder a esta amenaza y poner fin a la tiranía en el Perú.
Henry Pease García
Secretario General de Unión por el Perú (UPP) (emphasis mine)

and

Michel Azcueta respalda marcha del jueves

«Como ciudadano estoy de acuerdo con la realización de la jornada cívica nacional del 6 de enero porque busca expresar el repudio y rechazo de la población peruana por la ilegal postulación de Alberto Fujimori, quien pretende perpetuarse en el poder», manifestó ayer el vocero de Somos Perú, Michel Azcueta. Aunque sus declaraciones no fueron como un representante de la agrupación política, sino como un ciudadano convencido de la lucha que se deberá emprender contra la dictatura, Azcueta hizo un llamado a los peruanos para que participen de la movilización pacífica, la cual tendrá como objetivos decirle ¡No! al continuismo fujimorista y defender la libertad y la democracia.
«Hay una mayoría importantísima, millones de peruanos que consideran anticonstitucional la candidatura de Fujimori, por lo que me parece normal y lógico que la gente se manifieste pacíficamente y deje sentado en las calles su desacuerdo», expresó.
Señaló que el país lleva 10 años de «oscurantismo cultural», sin avances ni progresos, con una Constitución política burlada, vulnerada y pisoteada'.
«Todos los peruanos tenemos que luchar para que se restituyan en nuestro país la democracia y el Estado de derecho. ¿De qué forma?, valorando a conciencia la independencia del poder, deseando un Congreso constituyente sin injerencia del Ejecutivo y anhelando un Poder Judicial y Tribunal Constitucional autónomos», manifestó. [9](emphasis mine)

New York Times, November 21, 2000:

With Mr. Fujimori signaling to aides on Sunday his intention to resign and remain indefinitely in Japan, there were spontaneous celebrations in the streets ranging from workers and students dunking each other in the colonial fountains of Arequipa to protestors burning tires in other provincial cities while carrying banners demanding that the entire "Fujimori mafia" be imprisoned. The sense of relief that Peru's long roller-coaster of a political crisis may be coming to an end was summed up by the simple banner headline in today's Liberación newspaper: "Finally!" [10]

Congressional records, 31 October 2001:

PACHECO VILLAR (FIM): [...] Eso sí, no tenemos, Presidente, por qué sustraernos ni tener ningún temor de mirar a las cámaras y al país, y decirle sean diplomáticos o no, se trata de servidores y trabajadores que fueron vilmente tratados por la dictatura, por Fujimori, por Montesinos; sin ningún temor, trabajadores de cualquier sector, pero empecemos por lo menos con este sector que ha sido vilipendiado y que está esperando 2 meses a que el Congreso de una vez por todas, se quite el antifaz, mire los ojos de frente y pida a la Cancillería que mejoremos ese servicio por un Perú nuevo, por un Perú que nos permita tener una mejor imagen en el exterior, señor Presidente. [11](emphasis mine)

La Republica, 25 de febrero del 2002

¿Derechos políticos sin derechos económicos?
por Mirko Lauer
[...] A medida que el primer impacto del "descubrimiento" de la mafia fujimorista retrocede en el tiempo, van cambiando partes de la percepción pública del fenómeno. La crítica original a esta red de criminales fue haber montado una dictadura para poder dedicarse al robo a gran escala. La idea era que castigarlos resolvería el problema de la corrupción y la dictadura. [...][12] (emphasis mine)

Once Again, I confirm that you are poorly informed, Viajero. Stop fueling this discussion by adding those Highly Biased arguments, that clearly don't have any NPOV idea. THey are quotes of people that hate the former President, and also show their efforts to demonize him. I could load this entire page with information supporting the president, but i will not dout becouse it will only mean to gave you some justification to keep writing nonsence on this page. Those sources also show how you support your statements: POV and opinions of this corrupt Toledo Administration and those who support Terrorist under the banner of "Human Rights". Please, stop using this kind of rethoric and pathetic information. The former president is controvertial, but not even a 50% + 1 of Peruvians call it dictator. PERIOD. Messhermit 16:41, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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