Talk:French Fifth Republic

Untitled discussion dated 7 June 2012

Currency was never CFP Franc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.118.1 (talk) 12:37, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

War on terror

This section having nothing to do with the fifth republic I deleted it. Mthibault 11:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

As many states use numbers to refer to different republic, it is important to state which state's fifth republic it is. While I don't know of another fifth republic, there are a number of first and second republics. It is worth keeping a consistent style throughout all the French republics, so it should be [[{state} {number} Republic]]. FearÉIREANN 17:27 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Presidents Timeline

I tried working on the timeline in the Fifth Republic: Presidents section, but I can't quite get it to work right. The problems with it, as I see it are: its bad links (for Georges Pompidou and Valery Giscard d'Estaing), it's unreadable (light blue on blue?), and Mitterrand's block is red for no apparent reason. Onepairofpants 04:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Have you considered that Mitterrand's block may have been in red because he was a Socialist? Just a thought. -- Lincolnite 23:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Someone changed the timeline to a list, then someone changed it to a table. Good calls. Thanks MiShogun and Mthibault for that. Onepairofpants 03:07, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Alain Poher

Monsieur Poher isn't usually venerated as a true président de la République. If nobody's really against it I'll take his name off the list and put a note down below or something. As it is, he looks just as important as de Gaulle, d'Estaing or Mitterand. Any comments or suggestions ? Take a look at the French version to see how they do it, too. --Aquarelle 23:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Your proposal is good to me, I think Poher's name should be put only in a note, as René Coty's one (he continued to act as a temporary head of state in 1958-1959 before De Gaulle were elected, see French version again). MFG, 23:49, 25 February 2007

Just for your information, Alain Poher is considering as a real President, even if he was not elected. Constitutionnaly speaking, in case of vacancy of President (death or over big reason), Senate President have to assure the Presidency, with smaller rights, to organize new election (same as vice president in United Stated, with rigth smaller !) Véronique Pagnier (talk) 16:15, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposed name change

To Fifth French Republic (I am proposing this change for all French Republic articles.)

Fifth French Republic is a more precise translation of Cinquième République Française. The official name of the country is the French Republic, and it is the fifth one. Funnyhat 07:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Let's keep the discussion unfragmented, since we will either make all these name changes or none of them. Could everyone please respond on Talk:French Fourth Republic? Phaunt 22:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposed Merge

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Since this discussion has been open for 6 months, and the majority of opinion is against the proposal, I think it's safe to declare consensus doesn't exist for merge at this time. JEdgarFreeman (talk) 10:32, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

This article does not have any useful information, and having two separate articles for "French Fifth Republic" and "France" is completely useless. --Fixman_{(Praise me)} 00:45, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Add Support or Oppose followed by an explanation, then sign your opinion with -~~~~'

• Support for reasons already explained --Fixman_{(Praise me)} 00:45, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. France refers to the region; the Fifth Republic refers to the government. Bsimmons666 (talk) ^Friend? 02:09, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. IMHO an odd suggestion. "The Fifth Republic" is clearly a subject which rates a standalone article. Submerging this article in the general article France would be a bad idea. -- 201.53.7.16 (talk) 15:47, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. For the same reason that The Weimar Republic and Holy Roman Empire are separated from Germany. You might also look in Category:Defunct_constitutions for links to articles on the particular regimes associated with those constitutions. French Fifth Republic should have the same focus, as well as the same level of integration into and overlap of France, Government of France, Constitution of France and History of France. T L Miles (talk) 17:28, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. The topic contained in this article is distinct from the France article. If there is no useful information on the topic in the article currently, generate some. 21:49, 29 January 2009 (EST)
• Oppose I understand the reasoning behind the proposed merger. However, T L Miles couldn't have put my concerns better. This political entity is distinct enough to warrant its own article, imo. JEdgarFreeman (talk) 10:26, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Opinion

• It's not necessary, because article France discusses everything about the country, while this article only discusses about the government itself. 98.112.201.198 (talk) 07:05, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Dubious

See Talk:French_constitutional_referendum, 1958. Our 79.2% percentage does not fit any of the meaningful percentages one can compute from the official data. David.Monniaux (talk) 00:03, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I have found a figure of 85.14% from a reliable source, "Government and Politics of France" a book by Anne Stevens. The same source gives turn-out as 80.49%. I cannot from these figures see where the figure of 79.2% has come from, and am going to change in on the original page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.169.115 (talk) 20:06, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Republic series format

This article should probably be brought inline with the formatting of the other republic articles in the series. I've copied the template over, but unfortunately the country template doesn't seem to offer support for linkages to former incarnations. Other tweaks are also necessary. --Belg4mit (talk) 17:26, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:French First Republic which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 03:45, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Map - Djibouti missing?

Djibouti got indipent in 1977... shouldn't it be on the map in the infobox?--Alexmar983 (talk) 17:28, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:French Third Republic which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:29, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Map - Britain still in EU

In the first map, the United Kingdom is still pictured as light green in the European Union. RaiBrown1204 (talk) 17:28, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Carolyn Danielle

Maybe Thank You everything is beautiful 2601:18E:C401:F00:74E1:1F96:480A:FF05 (talk) 23:54, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

France still a republic in the twenty-first Century?

Collapse per NOTFORUM and trollism.

Is France still a republic? I doubt it. I recon all of France has been under foreign occupation again since about the time of the Millenium. That would make Jaques Chiraq the final president of the fifth republic. Ps. not sure if its the NAZIs this time! ( 31.52.124.188 (talk) 14:30, 13 February 2022 (UTC) ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.52.124.188 (talk) 14:22, 13 February 2022 (UTC) Collapsed. Mathglot (talk) 20:20, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Fifth before French

This title must have been written by a non-native English speaker. The order of adjectives requires it to be the Fifth French Republic. 2600:1702:6D0:5160:6CEA:6F40:FC58:A459 (talk) 16:22, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

It seems to be in line with French Fourth Republic, French Third Republic, and French Second Republic. It probably stems from the fact that French has a different adjective ordering.

Alternatively, it could be something to do with the number being more tied to the word Republic than to the word French. Someone may refer to it as the "Fifth Republic" in a context that it being French is already assumed. In this case, the "French" qualifier is differentiating it from other Fifth Republics as opposed to Fifth differentiating this Republic from other French Republics.

The most likely reason is that it is tradition. I bet if I were to read into the history of this name choice, it would be a decision made a long time ago by diplomats as to determine how they wanted France to be referred to; this makes sense to me when you see places like the Ivory Coast request to formally be referred to as Côte d'Ivoire or the Czech Republic wanting to be referred to as Czechia.

So, in the end, I think you are right that a "non-native English speaker" made it, but I doubt it was a Wikipedian. Most likely it was an ambassador or diplomat in the 18th or 19th century. GigaDerp (talk) 16:50, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

sorry to be that editor, but nope. It is is the Fifth Republic because the French rewrote their constitution four times, and the French Fifth Republic on Wikipedia for the benefit of English speakers who don't know that. The editor talking about word order above is correct to say that French adjectives follow the noun they modify, but that is only a rule of thumb, and ordinal numbers are among the exceptions. Don't ask me why; it's apparently one of these things that are too obvious to explain, since I looked this up and while there are two articles about them, one is math definitions about set theory, and the other goes into enormous detail about the fine points of when to use second and when to use deuxième. And don't ask me to explain that either <g> can you explain when you should use "the"? Elinruby (talk) 03:59, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

in a context that it being French is already assumed yes, exactly Elinruby (talk) 04:03, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Ignore This

Ignore This. Misread what it said. 2601:541:480:EDA0:F31B:73F6:925D:193A (talk) 15:35, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Merge proposal 13 September 2023

This artiche should be merged with France and Government of France.

None of the other countries have a separate article for the current regime. For example, after the Taliban takeover Afghanistan's regime became Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, but it just redirects to Afghanistan.

There was a previous merge discussion 14 years ago (see #Proposed Merge), with some editors opposing because this article is supposed to be about the government or politics, but there are already separate articles Government of France and Politics of France. Vpab15 (talk) 20:50, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

There is no question whatever that the French Fifth Republic is notable, so the only remaining question is whether it merits a standalone article or not; your proposal claims that it should not. The article is 34kb, and the French one is over 55kb, which this one could easily expand to that size or larger. The article Government of France is 14kb (40kb in French), and the article France is 273kb. I think it's clear that "France" is not going to be part of any merge; if anything, a WP:SPLIT should be discussed for that one. That leaves Government of France and French Fifth Republic as possible merge candidates.

The word "government" in French doesn't mean quite the same thing in English as in French. In the case of French government, it means one of two seats of executive power of the Republic. Under the Fifth Republic, there is a dual system of executive power, shared between the head of state (the President), and the head of government. The head of government is the prime minister, who is named by the president, but is from the majority party in Parliament, which may differ from the party of the President, who then proposes his cabinet ministers to the President, who appoints them. Both of these posts have antecedents in prior republics; under the 3rd and 4th, the head of government was the president of the Council of ministers. So the whole question of "Government" in France is tied in to the notion of the powers of the Prime Minister as one-half of the "bicephalic" executive power, and the ministers he names.

The analog (or, "other half") then, of the "Government of France" is the "Presidency of France" (a redirect), and logically speaking, if you wish to merge "Government of France" into French Fifth Republic, then it makes no sense to be half-assed about it, and you really would have to simultaneously merge President of France (34kb) into French Fifth Republic at the same time. President of France has 23 citations (147 in fr-wiki) so there's no doubt about the notability of that topic, either. It just seems to me, that these three topics are better off on their own. That said, I think the definition of our "Government of France" article is not clear, and nor is the scope of the article, probably due to confusion or uncertainty between the different meanings of "government" in English and French. That article could stand to have an {{Unfocused}} template added to the top of it.

So, I don't think the articles you propose for merger should be merged (certainly not "France"), but if you wish to merge the other two, then you really have to merge the Presidency article as well. Mathglot (talk) 09:50, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Maybe one reason we don't usually have articles on countries' current regimes is that there isn't much to write, but that's not the case for the Fifth Republic. The topic here isn't the era that the Fifth Republic represents, but the underlying system/setup, whose strengths and weaknesses have been studied academically; it's distinct both from the country itself, and from past systems like the 4th/3rd republics. And I don't think other merges (Government & President) would make much sense either. In my experience merging a high-pageview article (like President of France) into a much lower pageview article (this one) tends to confuse readers and to be a good heuristic that we're organizing information poorly. DFlhb (talk) 07:42, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I also oppose the merge request. (1) There's the length issue to start with. All of these are major articles and shouldn't be jammed together. (2) The constitutional history of France over the past two centuries is extremely complicated. Having separate articles for the different constitutional phases is appropriate, in light of that history. There are separate wikipages for the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th republics, so it would be odd not to have one for the 5th republic (see: French Republics). (3) I gently disagree with the suggestion that "government" has a different meaning in English and in French. The concept of a "government" as separate from the constitutional structure is very common in parliamentary systems. For example, see the two Canadian articles: Constitution of Canada and Government of Canada; and the two Australian articles: Constitution of Australia and Australian government. Having separate articles for the history and operation of the 5th Republic, and for the French government, fits with that approach. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 19:23, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per above statement. The France article itself is well over 200,500 bytes, and cramming the French Fifth Republic and Government of France into the article isn't going to help with the length issues it already has. Along with the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th republics, the 5th republic has the same right to stay as its own article.

TheCorvetteZR1^{(The Garage)} 15:18, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose primarily due to article size. Instead, consider merging political stuff into Politics of France, and history into History of France (Fifth Republic) (or a similar title). Good faith undoubtedly, but way too big. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 20:28, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose the article is already had too much information and is cluttered to read clearly. Merging the two articles would just confuse the reader even more. Rager7 (talk) 22:26, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose I commented above, but didn't make it official, so just registering my !vote now. Mathglot (talk) 07:47, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Inconsistency - move to Fifth French Republic

So, the English Wikipedia has articles entitled First and Second French Empire. Number, then nationality - which is proper according to the rules of adjectival order in English.

This is not a matter of empires vs. republics, as we also have articles on the First and Second Spanish Republics.

Yet we persist with this inaccurate and inconsistent "nationality, then number" rule for the French Republics. I'm going to assume that a non-native English speaker made the innocent mistake of writing "French First Republic" (and continued from there) in the beginning ... but do not understand why we insist on perpetuating this mistake.

But then, we spent two decades displaying the wrong flag of Austria-Hungary, so I guess we're a stubborn bunch? 2600:1702:6D0:5160:D9B3:92CC:9790:303E (talk) 20:49, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Opposed. Usage and WP:COMMONNAME trumps WP:CONSISTENCY, so you'll have to deal with the former, if you can. You can start with this ngrams. Looks like you might have had a point, up until around 1980 or 1985, but since then, there seems to be consistent support for the current name in books. Mathglot (talk) 06:07, 21 April 2024 (UTC)