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We have no criterion for what counts as a local minority, and coloring a whole state fluorescent green because there are expats in one city is misleading (plus why shouldn't, say, Mexico count?), so I removed the green. Vietnam isn't even 1% francophone. I'm happy to put it back if we can come to an agreement as to what should count as green. However, I did change Romania to light blue, as it's part of the francophonie, and added Andorra. (Though removed Syria.) And added the Channel Isles as official. From this map I rediscovered that French is an official language of Puducherry, so I added that to the infobox of this article.
Anyway, if there are other changes that need to be made to the map, could people list them here? Is the green worth restoring? Maybe as small squares the way it's done on e.g. the map for Italian? — kwami (talk) 21:38, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Kwamikagami: Surely being part of the Francophonie (Romania) is not enough on its own, since you excluded Vietnam (which is also a member)? Double sharp (talk) 07:41, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I'll remove Romania.
Romania's made a big deal about French, Vietnam not so much, and there are many more French speakers in Romania, percentage-wise, though all the talk might be part of separating itself from the Eastern Block and re-orientating to the West. By raw numbers, there aren't as many Francophones in Romania as in several other European countries which are left grey (Netherlands, Italy, Portugal). — kwami (talk) 07:52, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
When I read such language maps, honestly the questions I'm most interested in are: if I go there, (1) will the signs be in language X? (2) will a significant number of people generally understand me if I speak to them in language X? (3) do people naturally speak language X to each other, or do they just learn it for school and chatting up foreigners? (4) even if (1) and (3) aren't true in most regions, might they be true for a region where a linguistic minority is concentrated? I guess Romania might fit (2) but not (1), (3), and (4), based on the high percentage of French speakers. But I think (2) is a separate thing not on the map (it's more like the map under English language#Geographical distribution), though I'd be curious about it for de Swaan's 13 supercentral languages. (And for (2) as phrased, I guess it would become tricky for cases of mutual intelligibility, like going to Azerbaijan and speaking to the locals in Turkish.) Double sharp (talk) 08:32, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree Romania (and Syria) should be removed. French Polynesia and New Caledonia should be dark blue as French is the largest language spoken at home in those terrirories. It would be cool if there was some way to show the significant populations of native French speakers in Libreville, Yaoundé, and Abidjan even if the countries as a whole are not native francophone. Joiedevivre123321 (talk) 17:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Joiedevivre123321: all but the last had already been done, but someone replaced the corrected map with an old one. I restored it -- is that better?
We could certainly add francophone communities in cities. The question for me would be consistency -- do we have a RS for which cities to include? E.g. London was once counted as one of them. — kwami (talk) 22:38, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! This map is much better. I feel like the overseas territories should all be dark blue though. Reunion, Guinee Française, Guadeloupe, and Martinique are all majority native Francophone. Mayotte is mostly French as a second language so I think the lighter color is appropriate for that one. That's just me being nitpicky though the map looks great! Joiedevivre123321 (talk) 19:25, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
According to Ethnologue, Reunion is 20% natively French-speaking, French Guiana 8%, Martinique 4% and Guadeloupe 2%. — kwami (talk) 20:30, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good catch. I guess the creoles are often not fully intelligible with French from the Hexagon and are their own thing. Merci pour la carte! :) Joiedevivre123321 (talk) 14:14, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"It has been noted that French is increasingly be-coming the mother tongue and the initial language of the younger generations in urban Gabon (Pambou, 1998:147; Ndinga-Koumba-Binza, 2005a:72 & 2005b:141; Idiata, 2008:85; cf. Blanchon, 1994). In fact, studies by Ntong Amvame (1984), Bouché (1998), Mbondzi (1998), Ompoussa (1998), Itembo (1999) and Mouloungui Nguimbyt (2002) have shown that pupils of various ages and grades at schools learn French more efficiently than any other Gabonese language. Idiata (2008:200 & 2009:126) has also noted that some pupils do not speak any of the Gabonese native languages at all.
One of the reasons for this phenomenon (i.e. French being the mother tongue of younger generations) is cross-ethnic marriages.
In fact, many couples of mixed ethnicity prefer French rather than Gabonese native languages as the code for better communication within the family. Children from a family of this kind have no choice but to acquire French as their first language. The children learn the language at home from the parents before they even get to school, therefore lessening the chances of learning any of the Gabonese native languages.
This urbanisation is also to be considered as a cause for French being the initial language of Gabonese younger generations. In fact, “in certain urban contexts there is a large degree of learning by contact at an early age” (Lafage, 1993:216)."
I had no idea Gabon was so urban! Our map at 'urbanization' shows it as perhaps the highest in Africa.
I agree, if Gabon fits the criteria, it should be colored appropriately. Do you know of any actual figures? Because what you have basically just says "a lot", which while interesting isn't helpful. — kwami (talk) 04:38, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ethnologue has the following:
1,515,000 [French-speakers] in Gabon, all users. L1 users: 265,000 in Gabon (2021). L2 users: 1,250,000 (Marcoux et al 2022).
That's for a population of 2,233,000 [no date].
From that, it would seem that Gabon is 2∕3 French-speaking, but only 12% natively French-speaking. That's still a high number, and promises to only increase, but it's not high enough to warrant coloring Gabon as an L1 rather than L2 French-speaking country. — kwami (talk) 04:44, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is fair! Thanks for checking - I agree, it will only increase in the coming years IntelloFR (talk) 05:54, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Since the 2nd part of this discussion has been moved to Commons, should note here that we decided to add a dot for Libreville, Gabon. — kwami (talk) 08:23, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How did Ethnologue come up with those numbers? Most of the people in the DOM (Mayotte excepted) speak both French and their local creole. 2600:1702:6D0:5160:4CB6:57CF:7727:27B1 (talk) 23:59, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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In the "Numerals" section under "Vocabulary", this part should be replaced :
In the case of currencies, the currency markers are substituted for decimal point, i.e. "5$7" for "5 dollars and 7 cents".
By :
In the case of currencies, practices differ depending on the currency. For euro, the currency marker can be subsistuted for decimal point, i.e. "5€07" for "5 euros and 7 cents", or be simply placed after the decimal number, i.e. "5,07€". When using other currencies, the latter option is preferred, for example "5,07$". Snekye (talk) 19:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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change "Quebec Board of the French Language" to "Quebec Office of the French Language", "office" is in its french name as well 108.255.197.210 (talk) 04:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure if this is a good source, but I speak some French, I have listened to French speakers, and I tend to hear the pronunciation of the language being [lɑ̃ŋ fʁɑ̃sɛ] more times than not, I didn’t remove the other one, but I added this to show to readers pronouncatiion can vary ChauConlangs (talk) 01:21, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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