Talk:Cleveland/Archive 1

Clevelanders! Please contribute to the rapid transit page

I've added a Cleveland Rapid Transit page, but everything I know about the system comes from the Web and various railfan sources. It would be great if a local could look this over and fix any mistakes.

--Jfruh 23:39, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Natives?

I was looking at the list of Cleveland natives and I'm not sure that this list takes the right approach. It includes LeBron James, who is from Akron, which is really too far away geographically and historically to count as Cleveland. Lou Boudreau was born in Illinois and as far as I know wasn't a Clevelander until the Indians took him there. Jim Brown was from Georgia. I understand "native" to mean someone who was born in a city, or at least grew up there. I wouldn't complain about Bob Hope if he were on the list, because while he was born in England he grew up in Cleveland. Is there a standard approach to determining who is a native of a city? If sports stars for Cleveland teams count as natives then every movie actor should count as a native of Hollywood.

--Lemuel 14:50, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps we need to include a section on "local heroes" or "figures associated with Cleveland" to differentiate between those raised in Cleveland and those who are associated with it, etc. For example Rockefeller was eliminated today although (at least in the city) it is often said that "Rockefeller started his career selling apples on Public Square."

--T. R. Stratton 07:50, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't have a problem with "local heroes" or "figures associated with Cleveland". Another title might be "famous residents". I removed Rockefeller because he didn't move to the Cleveland area until he was 15 or 16, and then it was Strongsville. He didn't live in Cleveland until later. To stir things up more, Paul Newman should probably be removed from the list since he is actually from Shaker Heights, a city with its own Wikipedia article. --Beirne 12:28, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure this has been discussed in some wikipedia board somewhere (I don't really have time to search for it), but it seems to me that people who came from traditional suburbs should be including on the main city's list. For example, I was born in Parma, Ohio, but never lived there. I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, and Brooklyn, Ohio, but if there was to be a wiki article about me I would want to be listed as a Cleveland native. Of course we can't ask people where they want to be listed, but if we go only on birthplace, there will be some strange singularities. Also, in some parts of the world the suburbs are always annexed by the city and in some places they aren't, so, for example, native lists in the united states are going to be rather odd if they cut all the people who grew up in the suburbs. I agree that Rockefeller probably shouldn't be listed as a native, unless there are some caveats, etc., perhaps he should just have the listing in the earlier section only. --T. R. Stratton 22:21, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

People from suburbs should not be included in the list of Cleveland natives. If you read my earlier comment you will see that I wouldn't complain about Bob Hope, who was born in England but came to Cleveland as a child. I consider someone who grew up in a city to be a native. Where to draw the line is a bit hazy, but I'd say before 5 or 6 years of age. Regarding suburbs, point about suburbs being annexed doesn't fit. If someone was born in Ohio City, formerly a separate community, they should be listed as a Cleveland native. If they were born in a separate suburb, though, that is where they should show up. I understand that in casual conversation with people from elsewhere one tends to identify themselves with a major known city rather than an unknown one, but Wikipedia is about the facts, not convenience or civic pride. Listing suburban natives would be fine in an article on Northeast Ohio or Greater Cleveland, but the Cleveland article isn't about either of those things. It is about Cleveland.

--Beirne 00:16, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

I pulled out LeBron James, Trent Reznor, and John D. Rockefeller again for the reasons I mentioned earlier. I thought the idea of listing "local heroes" or "famous residents" was a good one. It would be fine to make that kind of section and list them as well as others.

I just pulled a bunch more names out of the Cleveland Natives section. I hate to be a pain, but there were two reasons to pull out the names. One, they only lived in Cleveland as adults. The idea of being a native is that the location is where you were born or at least grew up. If someone wants to add a "Famous Clevelander" section it could contain Rockefeller, Bob Feller, and many others. The other reason was that many of the people listed weren't actually from the city of Cleveland, they were from other nearby communities. I understand that in casual conversation someone may be referred to as being from the nearest known city, but the Wikipedia needs to be precise. Paul Newman, for example, should be in the Shaker Heights article, not the Cleveland article. There is a Greater Cleveland article that would be appropriate for Cleveland-area natives if someone wants to add them there.--Beirne 14:59, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

I just took out Toni Morrison, who is from Lorain, Ohio. No one from around here considers Lorain to even be a Cleveland suburb. Pmeisel 04:10, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The census disagrees with you. DirectorStratton 23:20, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

Auto industry

I'm not sure the auto industry paragraph is correct. There are a number of auto factories in Greater Cleveland but I don't think there are any Cleveland itself. The Ford plants are in Brookpark according to my Commercial Survey Company atlas. I'd like to drop the entire paragraph. --Beirne 05:18, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

Well, I work at those plants. I pay Brookpark city taxes, but the mailing address is Cleveland 44142, and the signs say "Cleveland Engine Plant #1", "Cleveland Casting Plant", and "Cleveland Engine Plant #2". Cleveland Hopkins Airport next door is part of Cleveland though surrounded by Brookpark, and Brookpark and Cleveland just traded several acres of land to facitate airport development.

If you pay Brook Park city taxes then the plant is in Brook Park. The post office used in addresses often does not match the city. For example, people in Fairlawn have an Akron address even though their post office is in Fairlawn. The name on the plant is a convenience because no one outside of the area has heard of Brook Park. Since there is a Brook Park, Ohio article the plant should be listed as being there rather than Cleveland. --Beirne 13:34, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

No one has ever heard of Walton Hills, Metuchen, Batavia -- and not many of Milan, Sharonville... to name some other Ford plants. But I can live with moving this material to Greater Cleveland. A lot of people actually do know where Brookpark is, it is considerably more notable as a community than either Walton Hills or Batavia.--Pmeisel 13:58, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

So -- I think the paragraph needs some work but the concept of automotive industry should stay. Note -- an earlier version of the article referred to Ford assembly plants, the nearest of which are in Avon Lake and Lorain. No one in those cities thinks of themselves as being in Cleveland.

Again, the census disagrees with you. DirectorStratton 23:18, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

The census does not say that Avon Lake and Lorain are part of the city of Cleveland. --Beirne 23:27, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

In this context I assume the author meant Greater Cleveland and not Cleveland. DirectorStratton 05:59, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

If someone wants to talk about the auto indusry in Cleveland, you can mention that the city and area was and still is a major auto parts supplier. One could also mention Peerless Automobile Company. DirectorStratton 07:43, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

The area doesn't count in this article but the article could certainly include information on the auto parts business that takes place in the city. It could also include the city's automotive manufacturing history, including companies like Peerless and Winton. --Beirne 12:20, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Cleveland-only Cleveland page

I have made a number of changes to remove people and businesses from the Cleveland page where it said they were from Cleveland but weren't. Now my suggestion to deal with the rest of the non-Cleveland information is to move it out of the Cleveland article and put it in the Greater Cleveland article. We should then add a comment to the top of the Clevland page referring people who want information on the Greater Cleveland area to that page.

The areas that would be moved are the references to companies outside Cleveland such as Progressive and the sections on colleges and theaters that are outside of Cleveland. I'm not sure why a list of theater companies is in an encyclopedia at all, and at least two of those listed are in Summit County, but in any case only Cleveland things should be in the Cleveland article. The Cuyahoga County Airport is another candidate since it isn't in the city. Any thoughts before I make the changes? --Beirne 13:41, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)

I am ok as long as we move, not delete, all the content. --Pmeisel 16:38, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

OK, I went ahead and moved all of the suburban content to the Greater Cleveland article. The only content I deleted was a theater company or two that disbanded. --Beirne 13:10, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

Public schools?

Does having an enormous list of the Cleveland Public Schools' buildings serve any purpose? - EurekaLott 04:29, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't think so. It takes up a lot of space, making the article harder to navigate, and doesn't add any useful information. I vote to remove it. --Beirne 12:36, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

Public School Funding

Could someone provide a source that says that Cleveland city schools spend the most per pupil? Otherwise I will cut this line because I just don't believe it. DirectorStratton 23:23, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

I can look for one. My understanding was that it was not necessarily the top spender, but it spends far more per pupil than do many districts with better academic ratings. And the stats I saw were for the county, not the state, but I'll check on it and get back.

I found some state statistics, here: http://www.ode.state.oh.us/school_finance/simulation_fiscal_analysis/EFM_exp_per_pupil.asp

Cleveland city schools spent $11,121 per pupil, in 2004, when the statewide average per pupil was $8,755. There are, however, other school districts with higher per-pupil spending, even within Cuyahoga county, such as ClevelandHeights-University Heights, at $14,442 per pupil, and Beachwood, at $18,685 per pupil. Mamawrites 12:50, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

To me, it sounds that Cleveland spends around the state average when you consider that it is located in a large city and thus would have higher expenditures naturally. DirectorStratton 22:50, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Population

Why is the population for "Cleveland, Ohio" listed as over 2 million? I know it says that it's the population for the metro area, but if someone was skimming the article quickly this could be very misleading. This article is about the city of Cleveland, not the metro area, so it doesn't make much sense to me to even have the metro area population listed in the quick facts box (although it might make sense to mention that in the article somewhere). Any thoughts? --Mesulliv 03:10, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

As one who has made lots of changes to ensure that the article is only about the city of Cleveland I feel a bit funny defending something about the metro area, but I'll explain why it ended up there. The infobox for cities has a population note field that is generally used to show the metropolitan population (Template_talk:Infobox_City). I'll admit that the city's population should be more prominent, but that is how the infobox was designed. If it is considered a serious enough issue the item can be removed but not easily made less prominent. --Beirne 03:35, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

In that case, I'm alright with it, especially now that I see that other pages mention the metro area population in the same way. I'll mention something about it on the infobox page, in case somebody wants to tackle a fix for this, by adding an item to the info box specifically for metro population (rather than putting it in the "population_note" field). --Mesulliv 04:17, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Wikimania 2006

Fellow Clevelanders, if you would be interested in helping to put together a bid to host Wikimania 2006 in our fair city, please come on over to m:Wikimania_2006/Cleveland. Mamawrites 18:13, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

The history of Cleveland

I've been researching the history of Cleveland lately and I was thinking, perhaps an article should be started about it. I think that if we started this page, then maybe we could shorten the history section on the main Cleveland article and cut down the size of the article in the process. What do you think? -- Clevelander 23:29, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely. I think it would be a fantastic addition, and it would absolutely cut down on the size of the main article. I'll be glad to help out any way I can...once I get some sleep after working on the featured article nomination! :) I'm sure you know about this, but just in case...the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History is indispensible in an article about the history of Cleveland. That should give you (at least!) a good head start. Good luck, and if I can help, please let me know! PacknCanes | say something! 04:25, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I was actually using the book "The Encyclopedia of Cleveland History" by Van Tassel-Brabowski. I had no idea it was also available online! Thanks! -- Clevelander 20:10, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Changing titles of sections

Please do not change the title of any section in the article, unless you are adding something substantial to that section. There's no need for a section called "Cleveland Culture" in an article about Cleveland; what other city's culture would we be describing? Pittsburgh? I can assure you that renaming "Culture of New York City" (and "History of New York" too, for that matter) would be at the top of the list should the New York City article ever come up for nomination as a featured article again. Thanks -- PacknCanes | say something! 21:00, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I apologize for renaming the Culture and Sports sections. It will not happen again, I assure you. No hard feelings. -- Clevelander 22:55, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

No harm done. Thanks; I know you have good intentions. PacknCanes | say something! 23:19, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

The Cleveland History article is now online!

Check it out here! I encourage fellow Clevelanders and Cleveland experts alike to give this article a read over and correct any mistakes or add any missing facts. I will be adding more to it soon (information, photographs, a timeline, etc.) -- Clevelander 02:08, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

City Fact Box

Is there a reason the Cleveland fact box format is completely different from the fact boxes of Cincinnati, Columbus, Chicago, Atlanta, etc... The boxes of these cities look cleaner and easier to read. I see that our format is the same one used in Dallas and Houston. Why don't we have a picture of the city skyline on top of the fact box like the other cities do? What happened to the city flag? I like how the rest of the article flows, and to everyone who worked on it together Nice Job.

Thank you!!

I'd like to extend my thanks and appreciation to EurekaLott, Beirne, Clevelander, and all others who have contributed to this article to get it to featured status. For posterity's sake, here's the link to the article as it looked at the time it was promoted to a featured article. If you had seen where this article was before peer review, you know what an accomplishment it was to get it up to featured status in less than a month; thank you to all, and fantastic job! PacknCanes | say something! 12:12, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I too would like to say a big thanks for those contributing to my hometown article. Sidar 02:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC) ---

blatant Baricelli Inn advertisement needs to be removed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.106.201 (talk) 21:14, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Cleveland Portal

Calling all fellow Clevelanders! Be sure to regularly contribute and/or expand the new Cleveland portal now online! -- Clevelander 20:47, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Sports table

How do you guys feel about the giant table of sports teams that was recently added to the article? I don't know if it adds anything meaningful. Much of it is a duplication of material covered in the text, and it adds more bulk to an already large article. Is there a good reason to keep it around? - EurekaLott 02:32, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I scaled it down and cleaned it up a bit to match that of the Chicago one. I would support keeping it because it stays consistent with other big city articles on Wikipedia. It is a bit bulky, though. - Clevelander 02:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

This version is a definite improvement over the initial table, but I still doubt that it's needed. Allow me to explain my thoughts for each of the table's columns: name, league, and venue are adequately addressed in the text. Listing the sport is redundant when the league name makes that perfectly clear, the year founded is something I'd expect to find on the individual team articles, and including the logo serves no clear purpose. Consistency is a noble goal, but in this case, I think keeping the article size under control is more important. - EurekaLott 07:27, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to delete the Cleveland Rockers part of this table...they are no longer around. Someone may want to edit the page to show that the Rockers did exist at one time, though. BigMar992 20:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I added a short line about the Rockers. BigMar992 20:39, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Could someone throw in a line or two about the Cleveland Crusaders WHA franchise? Hx823 (talk) 00:03, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I will, if I can find the time.Hx823 (talk) 22:05, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It is also noteworthy that the Cleveland Crunch was the first Cleveland pro sports team to win a championship since the 1964 Browns beat the Baltimore Colts.Hx823 (talk) 22:21, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Nicknames - Mistake on the Lake

Speaking of other nicknames, as a native Clevelander, I've never heard "The Heart of New Connecticut." Is this nickname verifiable? If so, from what source did it come? The only thing a google search of the term turned up was the title of this book: Avery, Elroy McKendree. A History of Cleveland and Its Environs: the Heart of New Connecticut. (Chicago: Lewis Publishing Co. 1918.) This was the only reference to the nickname, and it barely filled two search pages. I hardly think that it merits inclusion in this article, and I'm going to remove it for that reason. If someone can find substantial evidence that it's widely known and/or used, please feel free to put it back in, with an appropriate citation. On a related note, I think that "The North Coast" is fairly well known; it's frequently used in the names of area businesses, at least in their advertisements.

I've put in the nicknames section a brief mention of "Mistake on the Lake." This has been reverted and I think I'll revert it back (without starting a revert war, I hope). In brief, I think Mistake on the Lake is a much better known nickname than "America's North Coast" or more than half the other nicknames listed in that section. I don't think that Wikipedia is supposed to censor reasonable reports of well known sayings, nor is it supposed to report only a sympathetic point of view - rather it's supposed to be a neutral point of view. "Mistake ..." as a well known nickname is a fact, that I'm sure all Clevelanders have heard of and know how to deal with.

BTW, I spent part of my childhood growing up in Wadsworth and Alliance, and watching Jim Brown and Leroy Kelly. I like "Greater North East Ohioland" (I don't think this nickname made it!) Go Browns!

Hmm, well, you may have something there. Although I am senstive to that particular name, I believe that yes, Wikipedia must have a neutral point of view. It shall stay. -- Clevelander 03:23, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I should have read the entire article. M on the L is already mentioned lower down in the article. I guess I just have an aversion to all those promotional nicknames that most cities have - and was looking for some balance. I'll let others judge how the overall balance now stands and make the right edit. Smallbones 06:15, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

The MotL nickname definitely needs to remain in the article, but since it isn't a presently used nickname, perhaps it is best left in the "history" section, rather than at the top. I'd toss some of the other nicks down in history as well, including "Best Location in the Nation", which was probably last commonly used at the same time as MotL. Avogadro 14:26, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I removed both nicknames "Best Location in the Nation" and "Mistake on the Lake" from the introduction section. They now can be found in the history section. -- Clevelander 12:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

In the interest of making the article seem less like a promotional piece, I removed a couple of the less commonly used nicknames. I also deleted a recently-added paragraph from the history section because it read more like a newspaper editorial than an encyclopedia article. Please feel free to re-insert it, if you can manage to remove its POV statements. - EurekaLott 07:56, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that you removed the background reference I added on the origin of the "best location in the nation" slogan. Did you find it to be inaccurate? IIRC the page at the external link I provided is credible. (It's still extant in the "History of Cleveland, Ohio" entry.) Mapsax 19:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I only took it out because it was in both places, and because the Cleveland article is already a bit larger than it should be. I don't doubt its credibility - it's just that we can only afford so much detail in the main article. Do you feel it needs to be included? - EurekaLott 20:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

No, as long as it remains somewhere :) Mapsax 21:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC) [Edited:] Actually, isn't the History section mostly redundant to the separate article? Would it be a good idea just to eliminate the History section and replace it with a link to the separate article? Mapsax 19:01, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Summary style. Generally, there should be a summary of the main article rather than simply a link. older ≠ wiser 19:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Technology

I made some small changes to the technology information. I clarified a little of the text on the OneCleveland-Intel arrangement and I added a bit about current delays. I did that (and I am writing this) as part of a class project that involves learning about Wiki's. Please give my work a careful look and update it as the Digital Communities project (hopefully) goes forward. I don't think anything I did was controversial (or even substantial), but I wanted to take the time to explain it. CyberGroup 07:59, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Nickname Mistake by the Lake

User:Joececchini has been adding unsourced nicknames to city articles. A reliable source must be referenced for this nickname before it can be allowed back in the article. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 09:45, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Just look in any Pittsburgh-area newspaper, and it sometimes refers to Cleveland as the "Mistake By The Lake" when the Steelers and Browns play each other. Clevelanders also have used this as a form of self-depreciation, just as us Pittsburghers have called the Steel City a dirty Steel town, or "blue-collar idiots". I found an article on the term "mistake by the lake" on CBS News.com. This is definately not vandalism. Jgera5 01:14, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Nobody is claiming your edits were vandalism. It's just that the article already covers the nickname in more detail in the history section, and there's no need to add bloat by duplicating information. See the talk a couple sections up from this for some older discussion. - EurekaLott 01:28, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, considering I'm from Pittsburgh, I would've likely got assumptions that it was vandalism, that's all. I didn't know it was already covered. Jgera5 01:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Too Heavy an Emphasis on CWRU?

Anybody else feel that the artilce goes too in-depth about Case Western? I feel that the information included there goes beyond the scope of an article that is supposed to be about Cleveland. The superfluous information (i.e. stuff about the new president and his mission) can easily be found out by clicking on the link to the CWRU page. I will edit this informaiton out if other agree with me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hutchk26 (talk • contribs) .

I pruned the section and left a note for the user who added it. - EurekaLott 07:56, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

World City

Has anyone come across the world city or global city article? It mentions Cleveland as a "potential city" of earning world-class city status. Does anyone think this should be mentioned in the Cleveland city article? For an example, check out the article on Kansas City, MO...[second paragraph] OhioDesi 00:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it would be appropriate to mention it. The Global city article does mention Cleveland, but doesn't rank it very highly. The Globalization and World Cities Study Group refers to the city as a minor regional-global center. I'm reverting the addition. - EurekaLott 13:46, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Recent neighborhoods addition

A few days ago, an anon added this:

Several inner-city neighborhoods have begun to gentrify in recent years, particularly on the city's west side, with areas such as Ohio City, Tremont, Detroit-Shoreway and Clifton-Edgewater attracting increasing numbers of artists, gays, and young professionals. A live-work zoning overlay for the city's near east side, meanwhile, has facilitated the transformation of old industrial buildings into loft spaces for artists and professionals.

Should we include it? Is there a source for this information? -- Clevelander 01:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The information is accurate. I replaced the deleted section and added a couple references. In the future, please do a little research before reverting reasonable additions. - EurekaLott 03:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Good article nomination

I've nominated the Cleveland article along with the History of Cleveland, Ohio article for Good Article status. -- Clevelander 13:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the Wikipedia:Good article nomination, as the Good article feature is meant to "identify good content, which may have the potential to become featured after some development" - and this is already featured. Poulsen 18:30, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I understand. I should have read over that part before nominating it. -- Clevelander 19:46, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Trimming

Because the article was getting on the chunky side again, I deleted three tables that duplicated the article's prose. I removed the list of sister cities, which is partially covered in the text and completely at Sister Cities of Cleveland, Ohio; the sports team table, which presented almost zero new information; and the table of neighboring suburbs, which in addition to duplicating the narrative, awkwardly attempted to classify every community in a single cardinal direction. - EurekaLott 01:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Western Reserve

I just added "historic" in front of the description of Cleveland being in what was the Western Reserve, but I started wondering why the WR is mentioned in the intro at all. It's not used to describe the region today, and it's already mentioned in the history section. Because of its low importance, that should be sufficient. What do you think? Confiteordeo 06:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

That's fine. -- Clevelander 11:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Since no one else has weighed in on this, I removed the reference and cleaned up the sentence. Confiteordeo 22:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Permission ?

Did anyone have a problem or any objection with me inserting and adding photo in the article later on provided it is formatted nicely
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Berniethomas68 01:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Uh, yeah. The photo is a copyright violation. It should probably be deleted. - EurekaLott 01:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Survey on proposal to make U.S. city naming guidelines consistent with others countries

There is a survey in progress at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements) to determine if there is consensus on a proposed change to the U.S. city naming conventions to be consistent with other countries, in particular Canada.

This proposal would allow for this article to be located at Cleveland instead of Cleveland, Ohio, bringing articles for American cities into line with articles for cities such as Paris and Toronto.--DaveOinSF 16:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

However the proposal would allow U.S. cities to be inconsistent with the vast majority of other U.S. cities and towns, which (with a few exceptions) all use the "city, state" convention. -Will Beback 23:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Seventh most dangerous city

This isn't what the AP report says. It's actually a ranking of the safest cities, and Cleveland ranks 365 out of 371. The list isn't even all-inclusive (it doesn't include New Orleans, for example,) since the report says that it's only based on cities that submitted crime data. Also, I don't think it's meaningful to compare Cleveland with cities with populations under 100,000. For the moment, I'm going to remove this info from the article, but if someone can come up with a good reason for its staying, please say something on this page and put it back in. Confiteordeo 10:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi please provide links for this to make it accessible. Lakers 01:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

United_States_cities_by_crime_rate - ranked 9 with homicide rate of 23.8 per 100,000 people.
Here's compared to national crime rate.
What AP says is based on the FBI report and it includes all towns, regardless of population - probably for mere amusement and nothing else. For more meaningful information, check the first link above, as it contains FBI's data the AP report was based on.
The article is nice for a tourist's booklet. Do include a section about crime in Cleveland, OH. Rosier 06:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Cleveland's loan default 1978 - not the first large city in USA to do this

I would like to take polite exception to the current statement in the Cleveland history to the effect that Cleveland was the first large city in the USA to default on its loans. I know for a fact that New York City defaulted on its loans in 1974, and as a result was forced to lay off over 30,000 city employees. I lived on Long Island at the time, having just bought a home there at the time of the default. The lingering effects of the default and resulting layoffs cast a pall on the real estate market on Long Island that lasted for over 4 years.

David P Norby, Ph.D. david.norby@abbott.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.36.62.140 (talk) 23:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

• New York City didn't actually default on its obligations, though it came very close (the details are here). The city needed substantial federal and state help, but the bonds and loans were paid as due. Cleveland wasn't the first large city to default in any case - I believe that there were other instances during the Depression - but it was the only such time that it happened over to such a large city over a number of decades. --DMG413 23:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Cleveland revitalization investigation

Hey everybody. I'm the student of Moscow State University (Department of foreign countries), Russia, and i'm on my graduation work at present. This sience work is dedicated to american cities revitalization and redevelopment. Also it is tightly connected with Cleveland. The main target is to learn the ways of revitalization in Cleveland, Oakland, Pittsburgh etc.

So, dear Clevelander or someone who interests in it, could you please describe me the way of redevelopment in your city? The main point for me is to know all about measurement that were made. When exactly did it begin? What were the steps to revitalize the city? Was the downtown take down and rebuild? Were the citizens settled apart? I'll appreciate very much for any detailed information.

Any kind of information would be very valuable for me! Thank you. Simon Freydlin Freydlins 18:45, 24 February 2007 (UTC) P.S. Feel free to write me on this theme: boardpizza@mail.ru And please forgive me for my poor english.

There is an excellent forum at urbanohio.com that you may want to check out. That's probably the best place for your question, since this talk page is supposed to be for discussion about the Cleveland Wikipedia article. Good luck with your research! Confiteordeo 20:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, very much, Confiteordeo! That could be a great source for me. Freydlins 00:40, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

But there is a kind of problem with registering and entering this forum... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Freydlins (talk • contribs) 00:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

Picture caption needing revision

A collection of bridges crossing the Cuyahoga River in downtown Cleveland. The low-level bridges are drawbridges, while the high-level bridge in the background is fixed.

Regarding this picture: The bridge in the right foreground is a vertical lift bridge; that (or those) those in the left midground also seem to be of the same type; and there appear to be three high-level bridges in the background, some kind of girder bridge, a concrete arch bridge, and a cantilever bridge. This level of detail is not needed in the caption, but if a detailed description is given, it should be correct. Kablammo 02:13, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Caption changed. Kablammo 16:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Opening

Should the first sentence not state that Cleveland is a city? It's not even mentioned in the first paragraph.24.79.73.50 03:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Too Much Spin

Cleveland as a city has collapsed from a population of 914,000 in 1950 to less than half that today (c454,000). The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is not enough to stem the decline. This type of overly-positive spin for places like Cleveland and Pittsburgh aren't going to help. Only changing fundamentals, like reducing the costs of doing business, reducing the crime rate, etc. will have a positive effect. Fake spin doesn't work, as the latest census numbers show.68.219.235.37 19:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC) Are you serious? I've read many city articles and most try to put a personal spin on them. I don't think its not accurate. If someone wants to know about that they can click on the specific links to specific articles. Yes Cleveland has problems but they have a lot of residential developements that are being bought up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.205.127.33 (talk) 01:43, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I lived in Cleveland for 3 years and I found it an amazing place to live. The low cost of living allows you to live the lush life even with a modest income. I would hardly call reviews like the ones cited on this page "fake spin". Cleveland has art and music to rival major cities like NYC and Chicago, and in my opinion it has some of the best restaurants of any city I've ever visited, and all of this with a very low cost of living. If it makes you feel better, I just expanded the crime section. I think it's important to accurately portray all the positives and negatives of this city--because Cleveland sure has a lot of both. Cazort (talk) 00:35, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you kidding? I have lived here for 4 years. This is the worst place I have ever seen! I have lived in over two dozen locations in all of my travels, and the third world countries I have been to were far more pleasant then this place. There is a damn good reason why the population is decreasing. Cleveland sucks! The inferstructure is falling apart, the local governments are bloated, and ineffective. The cops are lazy, and only good for handing out tickets. The people are miserable, unhappy, and only get enjoyment out of making others unhappy. All of this is surprising too! They have more taxes then any place I have ever seen. A state tax, a county tax, and a city tax. You would think with the amount of money that they rob from their population that they would have enough to run this place correctly. The Rock'n Roll Hall of Fame should pack up, and run like hell. Oh yea, and their sports teams properly represent the area, sad an ineffective! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.33.49.45 (talk) 16:04, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Population

Population claims make no sense. Is it the largest or the 2nd largest city in Ohio? http://www.city-data.com/us-cities/The-Midwest/Cleveland-Population-Profile.html mentions the 2003 data as 461,324 and national ranking as #40. It is likely that the population and ranking have declined further.--70.229.212.172 23:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

sources

I have recently tagged this article in many places where sources are needed. For a featured article, more of this material needs to be sourced. If this material is not sourced soon, I will nominate this article for a featured article review.--Sefringle 05:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

A few things that are marked for needing citations don't actually need citations.

• Cleveland having the rock and roll hall of fame does not need a citation - just go to the article for the rock and roll hall of fame that is wikilinked and there are even pictures. For example, you don't need to site that San Francisco has the Bay Bridge or Minneapolis has the Mall of America.
• "Playhouse Square includes the State, Palace, Allen, Hanna, and Ohio theaters within what is known as the Theater District of Downtown Cleveland. Playhouse Square's resident performing arts companies include the Cleveland Opera, the Ohio Ballet, and the Great Lakes Theater Festival." These two sentences do not need to be cited - once again, you don't need to site common information. If you made a claim about one of these things, such as saying that the Celeveland Opera is the third largest opera company in the nation, you need to cite that.
• Local sporting facilities don't need to be cited - they all have wikipedia articles anyway, there is no claim that needs verification there, its obvious.
• In the transportation sections, you don't have to provide citations for the existence of highways and roads and where they traverse. What are you going to cite, a map?
• "Burke is primarily a commuter and business airport." ... mmm I really don't think that needs to be cited. It is a claim but its a pretty benign one. I think its a little nitpicky to want that cited.... Okiefromokla•talk 22:54, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The frist should be easy to cite, should be on the websites link. Moving on to the third point. That does need citations, and if they are on the wikilinks, just copy them here; however many of the wikilinks are often also unsourced, meaning there really are no souces. It would be a lot easier for someone doing research on the city to just click on the footnote, rather than click on the wikilink and hunt for a source. Point 5: I disagree here too. There needs to be some verification for that. I don't think that is common knowledge. The points I didn't comment on, are common knowledge.--Sefringle 04:42, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Livable?

I find the claim that Cleveland is one of the most livable cities in America to be extremely doubtful. Cleveland faces terrible schools, high crime rates, and crushing poverty. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6080044/ This claim needs investigation. I clicked on the citation and it went to a blank page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.162.192.24 (talk • contribs).

It appears the the original article on The Economist's website expired. I replaced the reference with the copy in the Wayback Machine. - EurekaLott 06:35, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the "livable" refers to Cleveland being relatively cheap compared to other cities its size. I have read quite a few articles about Cleveland being a good city to live in. The schools, under the new superintendent, have vastly improved within the last year. They still aren't the best but they are better than they have been in awhile. Cedarpointohio2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.205.71.153 (talk) 21:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Religious Tourism

Tourist destinations have always included historically significant religious architecture and its a huge part of the tourism industry. Whoever deleted this paragraph should google the term religious tourism first. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Orestek (talk • contribs).

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid the section can't stay. You've been very persistent in inserting these details, but it comes down to a question of space. Because the article is on the large side, there are many interesting aspects of Cleveland's architecture that can't be addressed here. If there was space, there are quite a few topics that should be covered before the material you added, like the the Cleveland double style houses, the impacts of urban renewal, the collection of bridges over the Cuyahoga, the recent surge in residential construction, or some of the historic buildings in Category:Buildings and structures in Cleveland. The churches you added don't even have their own articles. From your edit history, it's clear that this is a subject you find interesting, but unfortunately, we can't cater to every hobby. - EurekaLott 11:00, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Disagree, and don't appreciate not assuming good faith on Orestek's part. If you'd like to set down a rule that "we can't cater to every hobby", please bear in mind that this is not your pet article either. Such a rule is anti-Wikipedian in its most fundamental aspect, so please couch an argument that relies on something other than your opinion.

The material you struck was two sentences long, and meets WP:A. Frankly its a far better edit than most here on WP. The only thing wrong with it is that you don't seem to think it belongs. Sorry, but that's not a policy or guideline.

Personally, I think architecture/civil works deserves its own section, but this is a start. Cleveland's ecclesiastical architecture is considerably more notable than the subjects you mention, except perhaps for the Cuyahoga's bridges or genuinely historic buildings. However, Cleveland two-family eye-sores barely deserve mention even in a dedicated article. MARussellPESE 02:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Please don't make unfounded accusations. I'm more than open to additional discussion of the subject. If there's consensus to keep the lines, then I certainly wouldn't stand in the way. If the decision is to keep them, then more discussion will be in order. Where do they belong, under tourism or cityscape? Which religious structures are most notable and deserving of mention? First, though, I'd like to see more opinions about whether the lines belong. - EurekaLott 20:25, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Future of Cleveland

I believe that a wonderful addition to the page would be a section on the future of Cleveland where construction projects in the Flats, Downtown, the Euclid Corridor, the Waterfront plan could be discussed. --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.190.129.249 (talk • contribs) 01:13, June 13, 2007 (UTC).

There's actually a detailed list in the downtown Cleveland article, but I agree that it would be nice to see some of that information in the main article. My main concern, though, is size. It would be tough to pick and choose certain projects, but I think there are some that should definitely be mentioned, such as the Euclid Corridor and the Flats East/West Bank projects. What do you think of a small paragraph at the end of the history or cityscape sections? --Confiteordeo 23:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that a small paragraph at the end of the cityscape section about the subject would be best.

FAR

There are 10 cite needed tags, most of which date back over a month. The references aren't listed in a consistent format. There are copious redlinks in Tourism. The suburbs section should be removed, as no other city articles have this, unless, in Cleveland, the suburbs play a larger role than in (for example) Atlanta. Unless someone wants to put some serious work into this, I'm putting this up for WP:FAR.--Loodog 02:52, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. FAR can be found here.--Loodog 00:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

They do play a large role.--Firebird17139

Can we hear from some of this article's editors on the FAR please? Okiefromokla•talk 21:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Automated Review

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• Consider removing links that add little to the article or that have been repeated in close proximity to other links to the same article, as per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links) and WP:CONTEXT.^[?]
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You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Davnel03 21:14, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

New text

Last night, IP 76.189.216.194 expanded (without referencing) the Neighborhoods section. I'm not aware of the process with featured articles: should it be tagged, and just left there for a while, or do we just remove it after a few days, or something else? Nyttend 11:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

new text

Why is there no mention of asiatown. asiatown (commonly known as China Town) cleveland is expanding with new apartment buildings being built and Asian Town Center, a new, 115,000-square-foot retail complex in the works. There are 4 grocery stores, a plaza, a couple bakeries, a dozen restaurants, and they have events occasionally there. http://www.asiatowncleveland.com199.232.231.96 (talk) 07:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe its not notable. A neighborhood isn't necessarily important because it has a new shopping center. If it is notable, write something about it. I would shy away from using Asiatown's website as a reference, but you can start with this from the Plain Dealer.Montco (talk) 13:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

It's also borderline advertising.--Loodog (talk) 16:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Asiatown is notable, but it's an odd case because it emerged after the city's Statistical Planning Areas were defined. It's mostly in the St. Clair-Superior neighborhood, but also partly in Midown and the Quadrangle. I think that details about Asiatown belong in the St. Clair-Superior article. - EurekaLott (talk) 04:31, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Cleveland Ohio crime

Where is the section on crime?--Margrave1206 (talk) 03:08, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that there should at least be a section that addresses some of the more infamous crimes that have occurred in the Cleveland area, if only as bullet points with links to other pages, such as:

• The Cleveland Torso Murderer case
• The Sam Sheppard case
• The Kaber Murder case
• The Beverly Potts case

…just to name a few. I'll post more as I think of them. Max Density (talk) 05:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

African American Population

Can anybody explain the historical circumstances that led to such a large African-American population? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.109.255 (talk) 22:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Many African-Americans came to Cleveland looking for industrial jobs in the early part of the 20th century. You might want to look at the article on the Great Migration for more info. --Confiteordeo (talk) 05:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Indoor Soccer

I trimmed the text about indoor soccer again. This article has to cover a lot of territory, and cannot afford to dwell on relatively minor items. The additions about indoor soccer made it grossly out of proportion to the other topics in the sports section. A sentence might be justifiable, but an entire paragraph makes the section very unbalanced. It wouldn't be difficult to argue that something as inconsequential as indoor soccer should be omitted entirely. If you'd like to contribute more on the subject, I suggest adding to the Cleveland Force article, which has a lot of room for improvement. - Eureka Lott 01:46, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't think that there would be sports snobbery around here. Then might I suggest that the fact that the Browns won the NFL chanpionship in 1964 be deleted. That is already covered in the Cleveland Browns article. And certainly don't need to mention the close calls the Indians have had, that's covered in their article. And the Cavs vs. the Spurs? We can look it up at the Cavs (or Spurs) article, can't we? If we could just delete Art Modell too, while we're at it.

On a serious note, four sentences is NOT devoting too much time to Indoor Soccer. If you feel that four sentences is a disproportionate amoumt then beef up the Cavs, Indians and Browns sections. Soccer is the most popular sport in the world. And even the overseas leagues engage in Indoor Soccer matches, albeit slightly different than the American version. And if you want to ignore the tone of my first paragraph, there is justification for the three or four sentences that were added. Let's see, both teams folded, (Cleveland Rockers), they won a championship (Cleveland Browns). I did not ramble on and on about the subject, I tried to be short and sweet. You are acting (and over reacting) as if I did a total rewrite of the section which is not true at all.

And FYI, I am working (slowly, but working nonetheless) on the Cleveland Force article, thank you very much!Hx823 (talk) 23:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you're missing the point. The article is about Cleveland, not its sports teams -- defunct or active. The info you are concerned about belongs in articles about those teams. The Browns, Indians and Cavs warrant mentioning, perhaps more so than the others being that they still exist and contribute a disproportionate amount of revenue for the city than the other teams mentioned -- and the Force and Crunch didn't even play in the city or even Cuyahoga County for that matter, so there isn't even any relevance besides the name Cleveland. If you want to mention that they existed in the article, that's fine... but it isn't contributing anything noteworthy with regard to the town itself. Look around at other big city articles: nothing is mentioned about the Chicago Sting in the Chicago article, and I don't think the Baltimore Blast get any more than a quick mention in their town's articles either. Call me a snob. I love soccer, and follow the EPL almost as much as I follow the Browns and Tribe... but I don't really see why mentioning two defunct indoor soccer teams should be important to the Cleveland article. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 06:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I was not aware that the Wolstein Center was not in Cleveland (or Cuyahoga County for that matter). Where is it? Mentor? Elyria? Akron? Maybe it's secretly in Sandusky. Check your facts out first. And since when is it not notable that a pro sports team won a league championship (or three)? I am not minimizing the Indians, Cavs or browns or their impact. You're acting like I'm trying to merge these articles. I am not. I am not persuing an agenda, no matter what you think.Hx823 (talk) 23:37, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

If you want me to call you a snob, I will but that is beside the point, you can't say that the article is about Cleveland, not it's sports teams and then say we'll include the Cavs, Indians and browns because of the impact (economic or otherwise) these teams have and not include a three time champion is the height of hypocracy. OK, that line is not entirely true unless you look at Eureka's comments about something as inconsequential as Indoor Soccer not being difficult to argue against including. Excuuuusssee me? I lived through that 90's era that saw the Crunch be the most succesful Cleveland team (w-l pct wise) of that decade and dominate almost like the browns did in their first few years in the NFL. Now, before you start accusing me of being biased, I also lived through the last browns championship in '64. I lived through, heck, I attended several of the Cavs 'Miracle In Richfield' playoff games against the Bullets. I lived through the 'Kardiac Kids' era of the browns (I have the 45 rpm records to prove it!). So I am hardly biased to insist that the Force & Crunch have brief moment in the article dealing with their Championships. Perhaps you were just thrown off by the fact that this section was merged into the section that dealt with the announcement of a possible expansion team in the MLS. Moving the section about the Force and Crunch there certainly made it seem a little weighty. I believe originally, the section about the Force and Crunch was seperate from this to minimize such a happening.Hx823 (talk) 00:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The silence is deafening!Hx823 (talk) 23:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Cleveland is also home....

How many times is this stated in the article "Cleveland is also home"? Could the wording be worked on. --Margrave1206 (talk) 15:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Demographics

It is important that we consider what we are putting into this section. I have fixed two things here: first, not all Lebanese Americans (or Lebanese Nationals) are Arabs. Don't lump them into one group because it is convenient. Second, there is no mention of religious groups in the article, so to include Jews (or any other non-Christian religion for that matter) as an ethnicity, is a divisive move. While a claim that Judaism can be labeled as an ethnicity is debatable, it is quite irrelevant for the purposes of this article (or anywhere on Wikipedia for that matter). Most of the Jews, particularly the established communities of Orthodox Jews in the Greater Cleveland area, reside in the Eastern suburbs, not in the city. Otherwise, for national origin purposes, many are already covered ethnically in the article as being of Eastern European origin/descendants. Please be considerate, and don't forget to cite sources. If religion is important to the article, then let's add a brief paragraph on Cleveland's religious communities (using citations backed by census info of course). Ryecatcher773 (talk) 23:35, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The heart of the argument

Here's what the paragraph reads:

There are also substantial communities of Hungarians, Arabs, Romanians, Czechs, Slovaks, Greeks, Ukrainians, Albanians, Macedonians, Croats, Serbs, Lithuanians, Slovenians, Koreans, and Han Chinese. (emphasis is mine)

Besides the debatable part of being an ethnicity (which is opinion oriented as much as anything ), here's a fact: there are no significant populations of Jews living 'in the city limits of Cleveland. They left a long time ago.

Look, it's about accuracy. My observation is from the perspective of having lived in the near Eastern suburbs of Cleveland for the first 20 of my 36 years, as a Jew in a predominantly Jewish community. I've had relatives who lived in Glenville years ago, before it changed and the suburban exodus took place. I worked downtown for years, and I still get back home to visit family, so it's not like I didn't get around town, nor have things suddenly changed after decades -- there hasn't been a substantial Jewish population in the City of Cleveland in years -- unless I'm mistaken, the article is not about the suburbs, but the city itself.

True, my own experience, while empirical and a primary source in nature (neither are allowable under Wiki standards) they still inform the argument. But regardless, cited sources in this case are irrelevant to my half of the argument. I'm not trying to include anything, I'm seeking an exclusion of inaccurate info.

Here's what I'll offer you: As per Wiki standards, if you can name a single Jewish neighborhood in the city proper (and I mean a neighborhood, not simply a couple of families living on the same street), I'll go along without an argument or a revert -- but it needs to be cited using a census-backed source (The Cleveland Jewish News might be a good place to start [1]). Or, if you really want to mention religion in the city, start a subsection in the demographic section regarding religion. I'm not opposed to that. Just cite it and I'm satisfied -- as Wikipedia would be as well. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 05:25, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

As an inner-city non-Jew who has known Cleveland-area Jews and has had them for friends, I too would be surprised to learn there were more than a few thousand Jews residing in Cleveland proper. If I've ever met any, I can't recall it. Google "jewish synagogues cleveland" and the map that comes up on the results page tells the tale. There are just a handful of results listed as being in Cleveland--one on the West Side out on Triskett Road, which is actually geographically west of Lakewood, one south of the city at Broadway and E. 71st, and a bunch that for one reason or another have Cleveland addresses despite being in the Cleveland Heights/University Heights vicinity. A scan of the Jewish Community Federation of Cleveland's community resources page [2] confirms that only very few institutions (schools, etc.) are in the city proper, and even those mostly have addresses which place them on the cusp of East Side suburbs. The call for evidence of a Jewish enclave in the city of Cleveland is justified. Robert K S (talk) 06:02, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

There are a few Jews living on the west side, some on the border with Parma/Brook Park area, some living right along the fringe by the suburbs, and some in the University Circle Area. I think most Jews now live in Shaker Heights and Beachwood, where there are more synagogues, the Jewish Community Center, etc. I also did the "jewish synagogues cleveland," and I know of more temples in Cleveland besides the ones shown. Spencer^T♦C 12:03, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

population estimates

I can understand wanting to stick by actual Census figures, but if we're going to put these cities in a ranking, we can't do it on different terms. I removed all population rankings from the lead since they fell into direct contradiction with Table of United States Combined Statistical Areas, Table of United States Metropolitan Statistical Areas, List of United States cities by population.--Loodog (talk) 02:11, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Although I understand the concern about contradicting another article, I don't think that it is necessary to completely remove the rankings. At the time of the Census, the rankings were accurate, and they have not changed all that dramatically since (that is to say, Cleveland hasn't fallen to 120th most populous,) so the 2000 rankings still give a good idea of the city and metro's size with respect to the rest of the country. I have re-added the rankings but reworded the sentences to clearly indicate that the rankings are the 2000 numbers. If people want what the Census Bureau's current guesses, they can see the pages you reference (which are also linked to in the article.) --Confiteordeo (talk) 03:57, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

"not changed all that dramatically"? It went from 33rd to 40th! If Cleveland is the 33rd-largest city in the country, what is Albuquerque? Failing to update the rankings gives a misrepresentation of the city of Cleveland. The fact is that many cities like Cleveland, Detroit, Pittsburgh, and Buffalo (the Rust Belt) are losing population while Fresno, San Jose, and Dallas (the Sun belt) continue to grow. Why obscure the picture with a different reference of ranking for each city, depending on what makes it the biggest? Every other city article I've seen runs on latest Census estimates, including the Rust Belt cities I just mentioned.--Loodog (talk) 04:19, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you think that data is being misinterpreted, but the fact of the matter is that the last time that people were actually counted in Cleveland and in every other city in the country was in 2000. In that census, Cleveland's population dropped by 23,000 from the 1999 estimate. Marion County, Indiana gained something like 50,000 people from their '99 estimate. Since the 2000 figures were published, Cincinnati, DC, and Boston have argued their way to gains in their estimates of between 30,000 and 60,000 each. These cities were all projected to have lost population, despite Boston's two previous decades of growth, and Cincinnati and DC appear to have magically reversed 5 decades of significant population decline. These differences are not insignificant and can move a city 7 spots in the rankings, and of the thousands of cities in this country, no, 33rd to 40th is not terribly dramatic. 32nd to 83rd, however, is. Cleveland is still a medium-sized city with a lot of regional and some national importance. Sorry, but I'm not misrepresenting anything- the population decline is obvious if the reader looks at the table in the demographics section, and nothing in the lead implies that Cleveland is growing. Just because other city articles use census estimates doesn't mean that this one has to. I'm well aware of the demographic trends, thank you, but we won't have really accurate numbers again until 2010, and the rankings mean sh!t without them.

Also, please don't accuse me of trying to make Cleveland the biggest I can (way to assume good faith, btw.) If I wanted to do that, I would have used the Social Compact Drilldown Study from 2003 that found 588,362 people living in Cleveland. I think that's a bogus number, too, and it rightly isn't used in this article. --Confiteordeo (talk) 05:39, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

A city doesn't have to get hit by a hurricane for notable demographic changes to happen, Cleveland being a prime example with an est. 7% drop in population. Next, I beg to differ on whether the population decline of the city can be inferred. The demographics section doesn't include the 2006 estimate so the only information the reader has (and then only if looking for it) is: the population was dropping in 2000. But, aside from representing current trends, my main concern was consistency with the above rankings. If you're deeming them worthless without actual headcounts, that's something to take up on those articles, rather than piecemeal fixes in individual articles.--Loodog (talk) 16:12, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

That "notable demographic change" is debatable (I can elaborate on your talkpage if you wish.) Although the city is likely still losing people, why should we cite numbers based on shaky data? The consistency argument is bullshit because the Cleveland article now clearly states that the rankings are from 2000 (and it implied it before I made my changes,) and the lists explicitly say that the estimates are from 2006.

Also, don't try to tell me what articles to edit. I actively contribute to this one and am concerned with its content, but I don't give a rat's ass what's in a bunch of silly lists, unless its vandalism. Do I go around screwing with other cities' population figures? No. So don't accuse me of making piecemeal fixes in multiple articles. I'm not advocating a sweeping change here, I just want this article to contain the most accurate information possible, and unfortunately, that data is seven years old. --Confiteordeo (talk) 18:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

A) Rankings are meaningless without actual headcounts

B) The articles I've presented rank based on estimates

Therefore C) The articles I've presented have ranked improperly.

Any use of A) to justify the 2000 rankings in this article requires you to take issue with the other articles' rankings first.

How about including a minor note next to the 2000 rankings, suggesting estimated trends on this tentative rank?--Loodog (talk) 19:15, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I have to say I doubt Cincinnati has increased in population so those estimates arent correct. My city census from 2000 says there is only 7% Latino population and their estimates follow the same line just increased the whole population of the city. When Latinos are 33% of the population. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.205.127.33 (talk) 01:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the whole point is that the estimates say the city's population has declined since 2000.--Loodog (talk) 01:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Very interesting points have been made. Not to mention there will be people in cities where census estimates show population growth, so some people in those cities may want to list those numbers or rank the city by the estimates; and people in cities where estimates show population loss may not believe population statistics or rankings should be based on estimates. And even still, there will be cities where no estimates has been released recently, so now that's comparing apples to oranges because all the cities are being ranked based on estimates for different years. Therefore, where a city sits in the ranking order of largest to smallest is not accurate. No one would doubt that New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago still hold the top 3 spots even if estimates are wrong, but for other cities where populations are separated by just tens of thousands or 100,000 it could make a difference.

So how do you work it out? Well, there is of course one answer, the only answer that logically makes sense. Only provide population numbers, and rank the cities based on the actual U.S. Census count done every ten years, not the estimates. Think about it this way: What if I gave you a bucket of small rocks and asked how many were in there? If you poured them out and counted them, that's the actual count. If you looked in the bucket, or lifted it up and down to see how heavy it was and gave me a number, that's an estimate. Well that's what the U.S. Census Bureau is stating, these are just estimates. We shouldn't be reading in articles that City A is the 19th largest city (because the writer was looking at the actual census count), and City B is also the 19th largest (because the writer was going by the estimates). An accurate statement, regardless of estimates, would simnply be: "City A is the 19th largest city in the nation based on the last U.S. Census count". Now if a sentence follows that (but really not necessary) stating it may have jumped to 18th largest due to 2006 estimates, then that's ok, but the high profile information should be it IS the 19th largest based off the actual count. And in that statistics box on the right hand side of the article, it should only show the population from the census count, not from any estimates, as the federal government along with some states, cities, and organizations are doing estimates, all coming up with different numbers. With these suggestions, we won't read about multiple cities holding the same ranking in size, or cities having their rank or population based off different estimates for different years. Just use the actual ten year count. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.192.176.30 (talk) 01:56, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Beit She'an is a sister city

It should be added.

DarkestMoonlight (talk) 17:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

No Indians?

I'm a bit surprised that there is not a single word about pre-history, and that there is not even mentioned that there are indians living in Cleveland. --Hans-Jürgen Hübner (talk) 13:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Hm, good point. If you want to, you can add this information would be at History of Cleveland, Ohio, possibly using this website. Spencer^T♦C 19:12, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I have written the german version of Cleveland's pre-history [3] and have used the same source. Nevertheless, thanks for the hint. Now I've tried to write the english version, although I'm shure the text needs some rectification. --Hans-Jürgen Hübner (talk) 08:25, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll look over it. Spencer^T♦C 10:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Demographics

I am the primary contributor of the current version of the Demographics section presenting the impact of court-ordered busing and the corresponding ethnic demographics and economics which changed as a result. I tried to use a reference citation for almost every single sentence knowing that it is a controversial area. My father worked as a teacher, guidance counselor, and administrator in the Cleveland Public Schools system from the mid-1960s through the 1990s so I am well acquainted with the issues and I attempted to convey as factual and neutral-POV as possible, citing as many reference sources as I reasonably could.

My contribution to the Demographics section was in response to someone deleting someone else's "similar" contribution which was reasonably factual but which lacked appropriate reference citations.

The section is rather long and could potentially be moved to either a Cleveland Public Schools or similar article and replacing it in the Cleveland, Ohio with a reference to the longer section in another article and a briefer summary of the effects of a changing economy, mandatory-busing, and changing demographics on the total population and its demographic composition.

Alternatively, if someone has alternative references which express other points of view, I would not object to reviewing and including them. The Wiki "Point of View" policy is NOT that any view be excluded (unless they are obscene or offensive), but rather that either a neutral/middle-of-the-road view be expressed or that "all" (common/relevant) points of view are expressed.

What raised this post was someone (anonymous/IP) deleting the entire section citing OR and POV (which someone else subsequently reverted), with about one reference citation per sentence it is obviously not OR, and I tried to stay as neutral/middle-of-the-road as factually possible.

If anyone has other opinions/views, ... here is where to express them so that the section can be updated. LeheckaG (talk) 23:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Film and Television references

There seems to be some confusion with the works listed in this section. I think it would be more in keeping with the encyclopedic nature to list major films and television shows that are based in Cleveland (like Antwone Fisher, Major League, American Splendor, The Drew Carey Show, etc.) with an aside to films that used Cleveland as a backdrop for other locations (like A Christmas Story or Spider-Man 3) along with a link to a list. Before any wholesale changes are made, I would like to open it up to discussion. Any strong opinions one way or the other on this topic?Max Density (talk) 16:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Inclusion in Introduction

I find it a little unbalanced that the rock-and-roll hall of fame is listed in the top paragraph of the introduction to this article...and yet older, much more world-renowned institutions such as the Cleveland Orchestra and the Cleveland Museum of Art are not mentioned. Thoughts? Cazort (talk) 00:41, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Update sellout record

I commented this out until someone can update, per the new Red Sox record. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:32, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

hmmm. no one fixed it, so I guess I'll do it myself. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:51, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Music

Please somebody add the Dead Boys to the list of musicians from Cleveland.92.100.33.169 (talk) 14:33, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Cleveland Museum of Art

I think it should be included under the "fine arts" section that the CMA is a free museum, the only [or one of the only] large museums in the world that can boast such a status. This is due to so many contributions over the years, and the desire to keep it free. The only part that isn't free in the CMA is the traveling exhibit.

http://www.clemusart.com/planyourvisit/FAQ.aspx —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rayneslayer (talk • contribs) 16:13, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Brooklyn Centre website

The Brooklyn Centre neighborhood of Cleveland has a website at http://www.brooklyncentre.org/. Could somebody please add the hyperlink to the article, in the section on Neighborhoods? TimFerris (talk) 04:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Association With Rock Music / Rock N Roll Capital of the World?

Cleveland is NOT considered that. This needs to be removed, and no disrespect to Cleveland, but just because the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame is located there doesn't give it this honor. Major music genres and/or artists have been bred in New York City, Chicago, London, Los Angeles, Nashville, Seattle, Atlanta, New Orleans, Liverpool. Now, over the course of the last 60 years, yes, some acts would have been from Cleveland, as they were from virtually every other midsize city in the Western world. But Cleveland did nothing that outpaces or that's even on par with the above mentioned cities. How in the world could Cleveland be the Rock N roll Capital of the entire world? If the museum wasn't there, this wouldn't even be in discussion. And the museum is the only reason it has an association with rock music to begin with. It clear to see why this article is locked from editing. Any real music fan or person not from Clevland would remove this, knowing its pure fabrication. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.192.176.30 (talk) 20:50, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Cleaveland->Cleveland

I see that the sentence telling how Cleaveland lost its "a" was taken out because of the source. I figured the source was OK, but went looking for a better one. In the process I found the book A History of the City of Cleveland [4] from 1896. I had ignored most web pages telling the masthead story of the name because they were likely just taken from the Wikipedia article, but this obviously wasn't. As it happens, though, the author of this book doesn't believe the Advertiser story. He thinks it started with a newspaper called the Herald, where the "a" was damaged in printing and a new "a" could not be gotten quickly. I don't know which story is true, but wanted to start some discussion here so that the issue can be straightened out. Another thing I noticed when looking for a reference in Google was that the supposed year varies from 1830 through 1832. That will be another detail to firm up. --Beirne (talk) 12:50, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

That was me. I remembered learning in my fourth grade Ohio History class that no one was really sure how the spelling got changed, so I wasn't surprised to see that the source wasn't actually legit, especially since spelling is so much more fluid in places that don't yet have widespread print media.

Good work finding that book, though. I spent a while looking around for something and came up with crap. I'd say that the best course of action would be to note that the question of the missing A has been a mystery for more than century, and that although several stories are in wide circulation, one author who examined the claims in the late 19th century said that the most likely one was blablabla.

That would (a) address the change in spelling; (b) acknowledge that WP does not yet have a reliable explanation for it; (c) provide the best known theory; and (d) stop perpetuating the false stories. — Bdb484 (talk) 15:37, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I did some more research through Google Books and am inclined to go with the Advertiser story. It turns out that the Herald version only showed up in the one book and did not appear at all in books before or after. The judgment of history is the Advertiser, and without doing original research I don't see us coming up with anything different. The only loose end is whether the new spelling appeared in 1830 or 1831. Both show up, including one older source giving an exact date fo 1/6/1831. I would credit it to the Advertiser in 1830 or 1831. --Beirne (talk) 21:40, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

The William Ganson Rose history of Cleveland names January 6, 1831 as the first day the Advertiser was published and the day it dropped the a. Is that the same source you saw? - Eureka Lott 05:28, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's the one. Later on in 1987 the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History appears to use it as the details are the same.--Beirne (talk) 13:52, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I read further down in Ganson Rose's book. He mentions that the first issue of The Advertiser was published without an "a" in Cleveland on January 6, 1831, and that the Cleaveland Herald switched in 1832. He gave three stories about why the "a" was dropped in relation to the Herald rather than the Advertiser. He also said that the "a" was in general use until about that time. So this leaves us with some questions: Did the Advertiser leave the "a" out after the first issue? Did the township of Cleveland drop the "a" because the Herald did, or was the Advertiser's spelling finally catching on? --Beirne (talk) 19:41, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Requested move (inactive)

There is currently a proposal on the table to amend the Wikipedia naming conventions for US cities to follow the AP Stylebook's suggested names. This would effectively move a number of US city articles currently on the list, so Cleveland, Ohio would be moved to Cleveland. To comment on this discussion, please go here. Dr. Cash (talk) 16:48, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

There also exists a question as to whether or not Cleveland should be on the exemption list due to being a sufficiently primary topic; see Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(settlements)#Cleveland. Shereth 18:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

If Cleveland is not sufficiently primary to be the title of this article, then Cleveland should not redirect to this article. But it does, and it has for years. If anyone wants to question that, this is the page on which to try to achieve consensus on this point. But the absence of any such effort here, much less a successful one, implies consensus is that Cleveland is sufficiently primary to redirect to this article (rather than to a disambiguation page), and thus sufficiently primary to be the title of this article, and should not be on the exemption list. --Serge (talk) 17:25, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• The result was not to move both Cleveland, Ohio and St. Louis, Missouri due to questions of primary topic and/or need for specific discussion on this talk page. All other cities listed as exemptions at WP:NC:CITY were moved. Cheers, Rai•me 19:22, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

That is not quite what I meant. What I suggested was that before the articles on these cities are renamed further debate on their talk pages with notification to other editors via the talk pages of other articles that could be affected should be initiated. I did not mean to imply that there was not a considerable consensus via a general principle that they should be moved, just that editors of the major pages listed on the relevant disambiguation pages should be informed of the proposed move and that their views are taken into consideration. In this case there is a question of "National varieties of English" to consider and that means informing the editors of Cleveland, England and as a courtesy Cleveland, Queensland. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 10:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Serge - if this article is primary enough to be the target of the redirect, it's primary enough to be the main article - the direction to the disambiguation page is clear enough at the top of the article in any case. --DMG413 (talk) 00:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Demographics>>Schools

I broke up a huge run-on paragraph about forced busing. It gets extremely detailed (much more so than any other part of the page). Does anyone think that this subsection should be moved to the "Education" section and perhaps shortened?

Matthiashess (talk) 19:11, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Sister cities?

From the article: "Its (Cleveland's) 20 sister cities include Holon, Israel; Volgograd, Russia; Bratislava, Slovakia; Ljubljana, Slovenia; Miskolc, Hungary; Bangalore, India; Alexandria, Egypt; and most recently Fier, Albania." Does that seem wrong to anyone else here? Not taking into account that it doesn't even add up to 20? Bcdefg123 19:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I have found some other sister cities and added them. Leppi (talk) 17:16, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Nettuno, Italy - is a sister city

Nettuno in Italy is a sister city, it should be added.

Thanks

added Leppi (talk) 17:26, 24 June 2009 (UTC)