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Q: Why doesn't the article cover more of Chomsky's view on X political event?
A: This article doesn't cover all of Chomsky's many political views, only the ones that have had significant secondary source discourse to factor into what a general reader would need to know about his general biography. The Political positions of Noam Chomsky article goes into more depth for those with specific interests.
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Current status: Former featured article, current good article
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Define "rationalism" as parallel to definition of "empiricism"
Get a better source for Saudi Arabia political views; try McGilvray
Get a better source for views on partition of Palestine
Reduce hagiography in § In politics: remove quotes, pare second paragraph, expand on Srebrenica massacre remarks, consider page number for Rabbani 2012, consider paring re: Horowitz, Kay, ADL, Dershowitz
Address history of controversial statements on genocide in the political beliefs section doi:10.5038/1911-9933.14.1.1738
Turn the achievements laundry list into readable prose
Confirm with sourced prose or remove the flatlist items from the infobox
Add commas after "in year X" clauses
Consider whether to expand on his views on the Russian invasion of Ukraine
Incorporate noteworthy anti-Chomsky critique into the Political views section so the final section can focus on Influence/Legacy
Given Chomsky's lengthy record of public comments downplaying or outright denying the severity of the 1990s Bosnian Genocide, it is concerning that it's not covered more in-depth in this article. More content regarding these comments would be much appreciated. Royz-vi Tsibele (talk) 00:10, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree per WP:DUE. I read a number of Chomsky's works and listened to his interviews, and I have never heard it mentioned even once. This is a gross exaggeration. However, the issue is mentioned in the WP:BODY. --David Tornheim (talk) 01:23, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Chomsky has denied the Bosnian Genocide (i.e. claiming it never took place; a claim about reality)
Chomsky has denied that what happened constituted genocide (i.e. claiming it doesn't meet the definition of genocide; a claim at least partly about the meaning of words)
Chomsky has questioned whether what happened constituted genocide
The two references provided in that edit clearly show 3; they do not show 2, let alone 1.
So if anything regarding this is added to the article, it would have to be a statement to the effect that Chomsky is known for considering the term genocide overused, and for having used the murders in Bosnia as a possible example. Rp (talk) 18:21, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Rp Denial of the Bosnian Genocide's status as a genocide still constitutes the definition of Genocide Denial. A lot of genocide denial, both anonymously online and by public figures, comes in the form of questioning a genocide's status as a genocide. The Bosnian Genocide was an organized extermination campaign against Bosniaks and Bosnian Croats by the Army of Republika Srpska for the purpose of ethnically cleansing territory for Serbian control. This was a genocide, plain and simple.
Chomsky's claims go against the findings of both the International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. Chomsky has gone on record saying that some media displaying the Bosnian Genocide is fabricated, and that Bosniak citizens could have avoided their deadly fate by just "going along" with Serbian nationalist plans of mass deportation. These comments and others are utterly atrocious, and should be pointed out more prominently in Chomsky's Wikipedia article.
I think calling Chomsky a genocide denial wouldn't violate WP:NPOV; after all, Pol Pot is called a dictator on his Wikipedia article. Although I have a feeling Chomsky would disagree with that position as well, given his comments on the Cambodian Genocide. It's almost as if Chomsky can't accept the fact that regimes he's sympathetic towards can commit genocide.Royz-vi Tsibele (talk) 13:05, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're going to need to provide some more substantial sourcing for these characterizations if you want to establish a consensus that the topic needs more coverage in the article. As it stands, your attempted edit improperly synthesizes claims in your source. Remsense诉 05:11, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're right about that, apologies. Will try to find better sourcing in the future. Royz-vi Tsibele (talk) 00:35, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All of this garbage has been gone through umpteen times before. Chomsky has never downplayed or denied anything in Bosnia; he simply believes the word "genocide" should be restricted to its original meaning, i.e. to describe something like the Holocaust or Rwanda. That's not genocide denial, because nothing in the Yugoslav wars meets that standard. Cambodia: I just cannot be bothered going through it yet again. You're not the slightest bit interested in the facts; you just want to add some tired smears to the article. BowlAndSpoon (talk) 22:43, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You don't need to go through it again. Please refrain from personal attacks It's not as if you're the only person holding this position here. Remsense诉 05:07, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@BowlAndSpoon As @Remsense had mentioned, please refrain from directing personal attacks against me. We are both perfectly capable of discussing this topic without delving into purposefully aggressive language and tone.
As defined by Raphael Lemkin and other critical scholars who worked on the United Nations Genocide Convention, a genocide is a series of "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." In the Bosnian War, the Army of Republika Srpska sought to eliminate ethnic Bosniaks from territories they considered to be "rightfully Serbian;" such a goal is clearly in line with the definition set out by the United Nations and other accredited organizations. Furthermore, the Cambodian Genocide targeted ethnic minorities within the country, such as Chams, Chinese Cambodians, and Vietnamese Cambodians; once again, such a goal is clearly in line with the definition stated above.
Although the term genocide was created to specifically refer to the Holocaust, the definition laid out by the United Nations (and the literal creator of the term genocide himself) clearly includes other crimes against humanity throughout recent history, such as the Bosnian and Cambodian Genocides. To limit the classification of genocide to just the Holocaust and Rwanda Genocide risks feeding into the final stage of genocide: denial. Denial is what Chomsky is doing here, and it is a shame that the wider Wikipedia community does not recognize that, according to the users on this page at least.Royz-vi Tsibele (talk) 00:53, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is OR and synthesis. Your opinions and claims about what genocide is and how they relate to what Chomsky has said about Bosnia are not relevant. To have the article claim that he is a genocide denier or has denied genocide in Bosnia you need reliable sources quoted to that effect, and if possible balanced with RS stating the contrary. 2600:8802:5913:1700:D95E:4856:9AD2:F43D (talk) 06:08, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apart from that, destroying people is not the same thing as eliminating them from a territory: the latter can be done by chasing them away. The takeaway from this sort of discussion, for me, is that the application of the term "genocide" is inherently contentious, so we should be extremely careful with its use in Wikipedia articles. Rp (talk) 12:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The page currently has him at "is", but with a death date; yet the article linked does not state that he has died. I don't think there's reliable sources yet stating he's died. Dingers5Days (talk) 18:47, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Jacobin tweet was a bit confusing, apologies. Will keep poking for a better source. Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 18:54, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently he had a stroke last week but there is no indication that he is dead. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:57, 18 June 2024 (UTC) Apparently he's still recovering from the stroke he had last year? It's a little unclear to me on first read. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:59, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
there was a tweet (no source given) and the jacobin dropped their obituary (which did not mention or provide a source for his death). it's my opinion that we needn't update the article with his death until more information comes in Pallasproserpina (talk) 19:04, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This article may need some protection as several users added it back after my initial edit. I took another look again & you are right. There is not enough confirmation. Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 19:16, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have submitted a request for a temporary extended confirmed protection. Lacanthrope (talk) 19:19, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This needs more confirmation, these types of articles are written well before his death. Social media is ablaze, there will be better sources. Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 19:22, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not enough, if this is confirmed larger outlets will come forward. Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 19:24, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yanis Varoufakis (who seemingly wrote the article) claims he knew him personally, so I would give credence to his claim. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Obituaries are written in advance. Asking Varoufakis for an obituary for someone makes sense, moreover when it is a nonagenary with a recent stroke. Theklan (talk) 19:28, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article mentions "when I heard of his passing", but I agree with you, it's not credible enough. A proper credible news source would disclose the source, i.e. "as confirmed to us by Chomsky's family". If he died, it should be in Reuters et al shortly anyway. Philwiki (talk) 19:30, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Someone this prolific will have bigger outlets come forth than anecdotes. Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 19:29, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This article has since been deleted. Dingers5Days (talk) 19:52, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given the news a few days ago about Chomsky's health struggles, it seems easy hoax material. I don't think a single source considered reliable by Wikipedia has commented on his supposed death. Maurnxiao (talk) 19:20, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This just cites the Jacobin article. Psilopteros (talk) 19:35, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Diário do Centro do Mundo is an extremely unreliable source and was in fact banned on Portuguese Wikipedia along with linked sites. We should wait before editing the article, and hopefully this great man can still recover from his stroke. FelipeFritschF (talk) 19:43, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know Continental, but Vozpopuli is not a very reliable source, as it may just copy from other outlets or tweets. Theklan (talk) 19:32, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where is your reliable source? Ookap (talk) 19:46, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The only thing the la Tercera article says is that international news media have reported his death which doesn't seem to be actually true. Stellaathena (talk) 19:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Until we get confirmation from the family I say leave it 2.30.180.251 (talk) 19:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies, his name is Avram not Arvind. This was a mistake on my part. Sorry! Qx.est (Suufi)(talk • contribs) 19:55, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Brazilian economist Eduardo Moreira claims he has talked with Chomsky's Brazilian wife and she says he is alive (though presumably recovering from his stroke). I reiterate that he Brazilian sources used are extremely unreliable and low quality. In fact, I have just checked the DCM article, and they deleted it. FelipeFritschF (talk) 20:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now the rumor mill says he is alive and it was confirmed by his wife, also looking for a source for this. Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 20:06, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, which one of you changed it to say he died yesterday lol 2.30.180.251 (talk) 20:11, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Someone got confused about time zones maybe?Shallov (talk) 20:12, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most likely based on the above-mentioned MIT communication—Arvind died yesterday. Ookap (talk) 23:53, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note to anyone who reads down this far. According to WP:BLP and WP:NOT we are not here to report the news, we are here to summarize what is presented in verifiable sources. It doesn’t matter if he is or is not actually dead. Unless it’s hitting multiple high quality sources we don’t put it on the page. Wikipedia doesn’t win by being first, we win by being verifiable. PyropePe (talk) 20:59, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The New Statesman piece was taken down. Definitely one of the most bizarre things I've seen. JDiala (talk) 19:54, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Jacobin has seemingly changed their headline to be more ambiguous (although I've not really looked into this) 2.30.180.251 (talk) 19:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They have, they've also republished their tweet and changed "embodied" to "has embodied" to imply he's still alive Psilopteros (talk) 19:57, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can't even access the Jacobin article anymore. PlateOfToast (talk) 19:57, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can't even get into the website! 2.30.180.251 (talk) 20:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The NS article has been taken down and the Jacobin web page is not even responsive. I have no clue what's happening. Shallov (talk) 20:05, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You'd hope Jacobin and the NS would have better sources than a random tweet...! Psilopteros (talk) 19:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The "random tweet" was actually the Jacobin obituary. Though I agree that this situation is absurd and I'd expect better from Jacobin. A bizzare mistake, unless they have a secret reliable source very close to Chomsky lol. Shallov (talk) 19:59, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you're not familiar with List of prematurely reported obituaries? And of course it shouldn't be added there either until a reliable source about the obituary emerges. Nardog (talk) 21:16, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can tell, there were a couple articles that got posted, and then when you clicked on them they disappeared. It seems to be some momentary dumbness that happened for a couple minutes. jp×g🗯️ 20:12, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should it be confirmed that he passed away, usually infoboxes are updated with black&white images or images of the subject during their 'peak'. This criteria has been used on actors (Anouk Aimée), writers (Bernard Pivot/Joan Didion), artists (Eric Carle), directors (Roger Corman), athletes (Jerry West/Bill Russell), scientists (Katherine Johnson), comedians (Tom Smothers) and even political figures (Robert Mugabe). I propose the following image to be used on his infobox once he passes away as it reflects a younger Chomsky. TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 19:50, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd agree. It's a nice image of him as well. PlateOfToast (talk) 19:55, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While having an image of the person during their peak (or, at least, not necessarily the most recent one) is often what is done after their death, I don't think the black-and-white part is an actual criterion (see Elizabeth II, with her official portrait instead). Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's usually one or the other, it could be an old image and colored like Elizabeth II or it could be black and white. I'm leaning towards this one as it's one of a younger Chomsky and it's not bad in terms of quality. TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 19:58, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, normally when someone dies it's replaced with a recent photo with an iconic/posterity photo of them at their peak. There's no requirement for it to be black and white, just iconic - or at least, that's my understanding of it.
Agreed, it's a good fit and consistent with other biographies of recently deceased individuals. Maurnxiao (talk) 20:31, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with adding this younger version. --NoonIcarus (talk) 21:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Proposed image B
Hello, there's also this other one that I like as an option where he's smiling, though either would be fine TheLoyalOrder (talk) 03:51, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 June 2024[edit]
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Correct the year date of his stroke to 2024 per the linked news article. Kgayle (talk) 20:38, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per the linked news article the stroke happened last year. Please.
"Valeria Chomsky said via email that her 95-year-old husband is in a Sao Paulo hospital, where she took him on an ambulance jet with two nurses once he could more easily travel from the United States following the June 2023 stroke." Lacanthrope (talk) 20:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My bad. Thank you for the correction! Yes clearly 2023, not later. Kgayle (talk) 20:43, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why has been the Hebrew IPA taken down? He has stated himself that both English and Hebrew pronunciation of his name is correct, so in my view, it's an important thing to include. ~~~~Shallov (talk) 20:48, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was the one who removed it initially; it was in a note previously and I moved it to the date brackets as it is in most other articles. However, with the Hebrew IPA it seemed a bit bulky so I removed it instead of the English-IPA since, of course, this is the English Wikipedia and Chomsky's name is, as I've always heard it, pronounced in the English prounciation.
It was purely aesthetical decision on my part. I don't really have an opinion on its inclusion in the lede otherwise. Omnis Scientia (talk) 23:17, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have a source that he used the Hebrew pronunciation of his name? Though given his interest in Hebrew, I could believe it. Cadairidris (talk) 21:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, did not see there was a discussion here, sorry. As I quickly explained in my edit summary, my problem is with having an Israeli Hebrew pronunciation for someone who is not Israeli (and even a strong critic of Israel). ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 21:39, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, considering he's Jewish and speaks Hebrew from his birth, I think that including the Hebrew pronunciation is valid; him criticising Israel or Zionism does not take his Jewishness away. However, as per @Cadairidris, I must admit that I cannot find any source explicitly mentioning him using the Hebrew pronunciation. I have a memory of a source cited here on Wikipedia, citing him saying something along the lines that he used both English and Hebrew pronunciation and that both were correct, though it might be a false memory (or Google failing me) because I cannot find anything like that as of now. As I thought the source has been cited in the article - and now I've just most likely proven myself wrong - I think I shall not continue advocating for the inclusion of the Hebrew pronunciation, until any source is proven. ~~~~Shallov (talk) 21:46, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just to be clear, my point was more that it’s a bit weird to have a pronunciation in the Israeli variety of Hebrew rather than about the Hebrew pronunciation per se. I am aware that Israeli Hebrew is the only variety of the language in current usage, but at the same time Chomsky did not grow up or spend most of his life in Israel, i.e. among speakers of this variety, so that’s it. However, I’m also not sure if Chomsky having studied the language is enough of a qualifier to have any Hebrew pronunciation, even if he is a Jew—for example, you wouldn’t place an Italian pronunciation for the name of a German linguist just because they happen to have also studied Italian. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 22:00, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-4 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
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Review all citations for text–source integrity
Not done: per above. NotAGenious (talk) 19:55, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
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