Talk:Russian Civil War

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Requested move 23 August 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. See snow close by another editor at Talk:Wagner Group rebellion#Requested move 23 August 2023. Station1 (talk) 23:35, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Russian Civil War → First Russian Civil War – The second civil war already happened. 89.122.39.11 (talk) 13:35, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. No reliable sources are using this name. Zowayix001 (talk) 16:44, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Killuminator (talk) 18:52, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose move. There is no second civil war. O.N.R. (talk) 21:47, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Orphaned references in Russian Civil War[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Russian Civil War's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "caven":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. Feel free to remove this comment after fixing the refs. AnomieBOT⚡ 05:12, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The removing of the infobox[edit]

There was zero consideration with the members when the infobox was heavily reduced. I find this unappealing to me as a reader of Wikipedia because it removes the aspect of it being a massive conflict. Nusciii (talk) 14:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Result in infobox[edit]

Per MILMOS: As a general rule, this guidance should only be used where it is helpful, and should not be used as grounds for extensive disruptive renovations of existing articles. This is actually in line with Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. The previous version was here for years, therefore is consensual. So I strongly encourage you, @Remsense to present solid arguments how "see aftermath" is more helpful and meaningful for a casual reader who doesn't want to read lengthy texts, otherwise the previous version will be restored. Oloddin (talk) 02:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's not how consensus works, and that's not how IAR works. Guidelines themselves summarize existing sitewide consensus that generally isn't overridable by whatever you feel should be the case on an individual article: you actually have to provide a concrete reason why your preferred version is better for the article, which you haven't, and you likely cannot. Infoboxes were not designed to accurately summarize complex, subtle information, that's what prose is for. The previous infobox was one of the most egregious attempts to write the article in the infobox that I've ever seen. "People don't want to read" is not a good reason on an encyclopedia. They have to if they want to know what actually happened, I'm afraid. We shouldn't give them contradictory, malformed bullshit in the place of reading. Remsense诉 02:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You introduced these changes that were challenged, therefore have to provide reasons for it and to establish consensus. replied to: RE: That's not how consensus works, and that's not how IAR works. You actually have to provide a reason why your preferred version is better for the article, which you haven't, and you likely cannot. Oloddin (talk) 02:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The reasons are those at MOS:MILHIST, which is a community-level consensus that can't be overridden locally because you feel like it. What's your reason for why this article is so special? Remsense诉 02:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I already cited it. "Only used where helpful". So if you think that it was "too much", you should have initiated a discussion first here. Oloddin (talk) 02:56, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. You have to say why it's not helpful, me and the guideline (i.e. preexisting community-wide consensus) agree that it's helpful. Remsense诉 02:56, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, the guidance is not meant to apply mindlessly without consideration in any particular case. And small discussion among several editors is hardly a "community-wide consensus" for a matter that affects so many articles. Oloddin (talk) 03:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you dislike the guideline, then open another RfC about it. Keep in mind that it's not just MILHIST, it's the commonsense application of WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE to military history subjects. (I already know what is plainly stated there about section links, so don't bother. This is an accepted case where it's best not avoided to put a section link.)
Failing that, you have yet to make an actual argument for why it's "mindless", e.g. why this article should be treated differently from every other one, which is what you'll be needing. Remsense诉 03:09, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Articles are not uniform actually. Oloddin (talk) 03:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let me know when you have that argument. Remsense诉 03:18, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE says that the purpose of infoboxes is to give key facts. "See aftermath" is not about that.
For now I'll put Bolshevik victory with sources. Oloddin (talk) 03:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, the point is that if key facts can't be related at a glance, it's better not to try and leave the parameter blank.
Simply "Bolshevik victory" is fine by me, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's deemed oversimplistic and therefore too complex to be summed up in the infobox by others. Remsense诉 03:55, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and this is where a disagreement starts.
Then "see aftermath" can be used in addition to victory, it's also acceptable by the guidelines. Oloddin (talk) 04:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Choose an infobox[edit]

We seem to have two different ideas about how much information should be in the infobox for this article. Here are the two most recent versions. Which do you prefer? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:01, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox options
Massive Version A Massive Version B
Russian Civil War
Part of the Russian Revolution, the aftermath of World War I, and the interwar period

Clockwise from top left:
Date7 November 1917 – 16 June 1923[1][2] (5 years, 7 months, 1 week and 2 days)
Location
Former Russian Empire
Result
  • Bolshevik victory
  • Partial victory by independence movements (see § Aftermath)
Main belligerents
Also:
Also:
Also:
Also:
Also:
Commanders and leaders
Vladimir Lenin
Leon Trotsky
Yakov Sverdlov †
Jukums Vācietis
Sergey Kamenev
Nikolai Podvoisky
Nikolai Krylenko
Joseph Stalin
Yukhym Medvedev
Vilhelm Knorin
Alexander Krasnoshchyokov		 Alexander Kerensky Surrendered
Alexander Kolchak Executed
Lavr Kornilov †
Anton Denikin
Pyotr Wrangel
Nikolai Yudenich
Grigory Semyonov
Yevgeny Miller
Mikhail Diterikhs
Don Republic Pyotr Krasnov
Roman von Ungern-Sternberg Executed		 Poland Józef Piłsudski
Symon Petliura
C.G.E. Mannerheim
Belarusian Democratic Republic S. Bułak-Bałachowicz
Konstantin Päts
Jānis Čakste
Antanas Smetona
Ion Inculeț
Democratic Republic of Georgia Noe Zhordania
A. Khatisian
Nasib Yusifbeyli †
Enver Pasha †
Vladimir Volsky
Maria Spiridonova
Nykyfor Hryhoriv †
Nestor Makhno
Stepan Petrichenko
…and others		 Otani Kikuzo
Edmund Ironside
William S. Graves
Czechoslovakia Radola Gajda
Maurice Janin
Poland Ludomir Junosza-Stępowski †
…and others		 German Empire H. von Eichhorn †
Ottoman Empire Nuri Pasha
Jan Sierada
Pavlo Skoropadskyi
P. Bermondt-Avalov
…and others
Strength
Local forces:
Also:
Also:

Ottoman Empire Ottoman Army:
20,000 (peak)

Also:
Casualties and losses
  • Czechoslovakia 13,000 killed
  • 6,500 killed
  • United Kingdom 938+ killed[9]
  • United States 596 killed
  • Romania 350 killed
  • Kingdom of Greece 179 killed
  • Poland ~250,000
  • 57,000 killed
  • 113,000 wounded
  • 50,000 POWs
  • ~125,000
  • 15,000 killed
  • ~5,000
  • 3,500 killed
  • 1,650 executed/dead
  • German Empire 500 killed

7,000,000–12,000,000 total casualties, including
civilians and non-combatants

1–2 million refugees outside Russia
Russian Civil War
Part of the Russian Revolution, the aftermath of World War I, and the interwar period

Clockwise from top left:
Date7 November 1917 – 16 June 1923[1][11]
Location
Former Russian Empire
Result Bolshevik victory[12][13][14]
Belligerents

 Soviet Union


Regional socialist forces		 Russia White movement Separatists:
Anti-Bolshevik left:
 Allied intervention:
 Central Powers:
Commanders and leaders
Strength
Casualties and losses
1,500,000[6]
  • 1,500,000[6]
  • Czechoslovakia 13,000 killed
  • 6,500 killed
  • United Kingdom 938 killed[17]
  • United States 596 killed
  • Romania 350 killed
  • Kingdom of Greece 179 killed
  • Poland 250,000
  • 125,000
  • 5,000
  • 3,000 killed
  • Estonia 3,888 killed
  • Latvia 3,046 killed
  • 1,444 killed[10]
  • German Empire 500 killed
  • 7,000,000–12,000,000 total casualties
  • 1–2 million refugees outside Russia

References

  1. ^ a b Mawdsley 2007, pp. 3, 230.
  2. ^ Последние бои на Дальнем Востоке. М., Центрполиграф, 2005.
  3. ^ a b Erickson 1984, p. 763.
  4. ^ Belash, Victor & Belash, Aleksandr, Dorogi Nestora Makhno, p. 340
  5. ^ Damien Wright, Churchill's Secret War with Lenin: British and Commonwealth Military Intervention in the Russian Civil War, 1918–20, Solihull, UK, 2017, pp. 394, 526–528, 530–535; Clifford Kinvig, Churchill's Crusade: The British Invasion of Russia 1918–1920, London 2006, ISBN 1-85285-477-4, p. 297; Timothy Winegard, The First World Oil War, University of Toronto Press (2016), p. 229
  6. ^ a b c d Smele 2016, p. 160.
  7. ^ «Гражданская война в России» в БРЭ. Дата обращения: 14 октября 2020. Архивировано 24 марта 2021 года.
  8. ^ Krivosheev 1997, p. 7-38.
  9. ^ Wright, Damien (2017). Churchill's Secret War with Lenin: British and Commonwealth Military Intervention in the Russian Civil War, 1918–20'. Solihull, UK: Helion and Company. pp. 490–492, 498–500, 504. ISBN 978-1911512103.; Kinvig 2006, pp. 289, 315; Winegard, Timothy (2016). The First World Oil War. University of Toronto Press. p. 208.
  10. ^ a b Eidintas, Žalys & Senn 1999, p. 30.
  11. ^ Последние бои на Дальнем Востоке. М., Центрполиграф, 2005.
  12. ^ "Russian Civil War | Casualties, Causes, Combatants, & Outcome | Britannica". www.britannica.com. 10 May 2024.
  13. ^ Murphy, Brian (2 August 2004). Rostov in the Russian Civil War, 1917-1920: The Key to Victory. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-134-27129-0.
  14. ^ Bullock, David (6 June 2014). The Russian Civil War 1918–22. Bloomsbury Publishing. ISBN 978-1-4728-1032-8.
  15. ^ Belash, Victor & Belash, Aleksandr, Dorogi Nestora Makhno, p. 340
  16. ^ Damien Wright, Churchill's Secret War with Lenin: British and Commonwealth Military Intervention in the Russian Civil War, 1918–20, Solihull, UK, 2017, pp. 394, 526–528, 530–535; Clifford Kinvig, Churchill's Crusade: The British Invasion of Russia 1918–1920, London 2006, ISBN 1-85285-477-4, p. 297; Timothy Winegard, The First World Oil War, University of Toronto Press (2016), p. 229
  17. ^ Wright, Damien (2017). Churchill's Secret War with Lenin: British and Commonwealth Military Intervention in the Russian Civil War, 1918–20'. Solihull, UK: Helion. pp. 490–492, 498–500, 504. ISBN 978-1-911-51210-3.; Kinvig 2006, pp. 289, 315; Winegard, Timothy (2016). The First World Oil War. University of Toronto Press. p. 208.

Responses[edit]

  • I don't care. My only interest is in getting a decision made, so the edit warring will stop. I will notify Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history in the hope that someone there will have good advice. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:01, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Both infoboxes (but especially the second one) make it appear like Kerensky was somehow associated with the White Movement, which was not the case. While he did participate in the Kerensky–Krasnov uprising against the Bolsheviks, this was before the White Movement, which Kerensky never supported. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 00:26, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Massive version A takes up over half the content width, whereas Massive version B takes up over a third. Both spill two subsections into the body. There should be a very strong content reason for A to be picked over B, given how much space it takes away from the text. CMD (talk) 01:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Infoboxes are supposed to help readers, and not overwhelm or confuse them. If it has to be one of these, it needs to be B. Ideally even that would be slimmed down, especially when it comes to the leaders. Please remember that minor details can and should be left to the article prose. I'm going to ping Nick-D to see if they'd like to comment, as they have a bunch of experience dealing with the World War II infobox. (Note that I don't have the expertise to be able to comment on the factualness here.) Ed [talk] [OMT] 02:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Summoned by bot) Infoboxes are supposed to help readers, and not overwhelm or confuse them. If it has to be one of these, it needs to be B. Ideally even that would be slimmed down, especially when it comes to the leaders. … minor details can and should be left to the article prose. I can't add anything useful to ed17's comment both infoboxes are massively bloated to the point of overwhelming the article. The Russian civil war is a massive topic, but the infobox needn't be!Pincrete (talk) 04:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    What information is excessive, in your opinion?--Oloddin (talk) 05:57, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I was thinking of suggesting Commanders and leaders only mentioned once or twice, as this would indicate a low level of relevance. However, it turns out that some of them are not mentioned at all. Not even all the Belligerents are in the article! CMD (talk) 07:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    A lot of the information in infoboxes could be put in the article. For example, we could have a sortable table listing all the belligerents with their names and dates, or even a proper timeline. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Sure it could, anything could, endless possibility. Nonetheless, here we are after 23 years, suggesting the weight is not very strong. CMD (talk) 01:16, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the ping. I agree that infoboxes should be simple, as their goal is to present readers with a very simple summary of the conflict. Both the options above look too complex to me, even allowing for the complexity of this war. For instance, I'd suggest omitting the names of the foreign intervention force commanders given the size of these forces and their impact was generally pretty modest when compared to the size of the various Russian forces. Including force strengths in the infobox adds quite a lot of complexity for little gain, and I'd be surprised if there aren't actually a range of figures for this. The solution used in the World War II article infobox has been to keep it very simple, but include links to the articles that cover the underlying complexity (E.g. links to what made up the Allied and Axis alliances, etc). Nick-D (talk) 10:10, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: World War II's infobox is a fraction of the size of these. Sammy D III (talk) 13:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not really a fan of either but I would say that B is an improvement over A. As already mentioned, A is far too complicated to be useful and the infobox does not serve its purpose here. Mellk (talk) 13:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Summoned by bot) B. I agree that A is far too cluttered to be useful. Ifly6 (talk) 17:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]


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