Talk:Books of Swords

Article status after creation

This is kind of stubbish right now. I plan in the near future to add some more information about characters and concepts. If anyone wants to pitch in that is familiar with the series, by all means. Here are some ideas I had to round it out:

• Characters
  • Mark
  • Ben
  • Barbara
  • Vilkata
  • Wood
  • Jord
  • Draffut
  • Emperor

• Concepts
  • Gods
  • Demons
  • Magic
  • White/Red/Blue temples
  • ARDNA

Akerkhof 22:38, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Let me just say that this series of books is entirely excellent, and I'm glad that this article exists. Thank you, Akerkhof. Mr. Billion 06:25, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Notes on magic

The knowledge of an person's true name granting power over them is not an inexplicable thing. It's a quite common belief in certain parts of the world, and this is just an adaptation of that 75.71.169.0 23:53, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Proposed deletion / merge

First, I would resist any suggestion that the article be deleted. It had been proposed for deletion once, and survived the vote, and that was when it is in it's proto-state. I think the series and the swords themselves easily meet wiki standards for notability. The content has drifted a bit over time, maybe it could use a going over to make it read better and be more encyclopedic.

I am ambivalent about merging it. The structure of the two articles represents how I like to see things organized in wiki. But, it could fit into the main article, and if someone wants to merge and restructure it, by all means feel free. Akerkhof 19:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

When I consider much newer, less influential fantasy series which have whole sections devoted to them, the thought that Saberhagen's Swords series' two pages are even at risk is shocking. The books are highly notable in and of themselves, and the Swords taken as concepts have taken on a life of their own-- they're clearly differentiated in topic and both very note-worthy.

Wellspring 01:58, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

The Emperor's interaction with Swords

I'm not entirely certain that the Emperor is quite as vulnerable to Swords as the article seems to imply... if you recall, Draffut tells Mark that, even with Sightblinder, the Emperor could see who Draffut really was... -- 216.87.207.1 (talk) 06:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I do not recall Draffut saying that. Do you remember when this occurred? I do remember the emperor knowing who Draffut was after Draffut regressed to a dog. Bertrc 18:28, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

3rd book of swords, chapter 3 Nite01002 (talk) 13:51, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, it has been a long time since I read them, and I do not have them handy. What exactly did Draffut say? Was the implication that the sword had no effect? Was the emperor simply not fooled by the illusion? Did Sightblinder simply show Draffut as himself? Can you check my other recollections: I am almost positive that when the emperor visited the woman who owned soul-cutter, she drove him away by unsheathing it part-way. Also, after the battle, when soul-cutter was fully unsheathed, I thought the emperor needed Shieldbreaker to approach and re-sheath it. --Bertrc (talk) 21:13, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm in the process of rereading the books now, and haven't gotten up to that point yet. The woman in question, if I remember the story correctly, is Yambu [the Silver Queen], but I can confirm that and your recollection of the event when I get there. I'm pretty sure that Ariane (Ben's love from the second book) is Yambu's daughter by the Emperor, and I seem to remember that this aspect of Yambu & the Emperor's relationship is confirmed at some point in the 3rd book. As for what specifically Draffut says:

{Draffut} "...I can tell you this: I think that Sightblinder did not deceive him for a moment, though I had it in my hand as I approached"

{Mark} "It did not deceive him?"

{Draffut} "I think he never saw me as anything but what I am." The Beastlord thought for a moment, then concluded: "Of course it was not my intention to deceive him, unless he should mean me harm -- and I do not believe he did."

One could probably interpret that to agree with any of the three statements you asked. Once I get to the Mindsword vs. Soulcutter battle I'll update this page and answer your other recollection, if no one else has yet. Nite01002 (talk) 22:08, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Yambu the Silver Queen. And yes, Ben's love is her and the emperor's daughter. It is on the eve of the big battle. She is in her tent. The Emperor arrives and won't leave when she tells him to, so she starts to draw soul-cutter. --Bertrc (talk) 00:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Just as an aside, I'm not the same poster as 216.87.207.1 above, I just noticed the question as I came through looking for backstory while I was re-reading the books. That said, I think a much more interesting implication of this whole thing is that Draffut seems to be able to control the image he projects with Sightblinder (he mentions it in the quote above; he also is able to intentaionally appear as a dragon [or at the very least is aware that's what he appears as] when he first meets Mark in the same chapter). No one else seems to be able to conciously choose what to appear as while holding the blade (including the ability to appear as just themselves), and Mark several times wonders who/what he's seen as. Not sure what, if any, relevance that has, though. I'm trying to remember if Draffut has any other interaction with Swords' powers, especially ones directed at him, but can't come up with any. Nite01002 (talk) 14:27, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, I've finished the three books in the First Swords cycle. Here's the parts about Swords from when the Emperor visits Yambu:

{Yambu speaking} "... Could you defeat the Mindsword for me then?"

{The Emporer} "I'll do all I can to help you, if you will be my bride. We'll see about the Mindsword when it comes."

... {jump cut} ...

{Yambu, again} "... Leave now, or I draw Soulcutter"

{The Emporer} "It's your Sword, to do with as you will. But I will leave when you decide to draw it."

She started to draw the Sword, and at the same moment called out in a clear voice for her guards. When they came pushing into the tent a moment later, they found their Queen quite alone, and Soulcutter safely in its sheath, though her hand on the hilt was poised as if for action.

Tough to say for sure whether he's leaving because of the Sword, or because of what drawing it signifies (remember: He's just asked her to marry him and she's using the sword to chase him out as an answer). Later, after she's drawn the Sword:

... There the giant [Draffut] stopped, and set down the man [the Emperor] who had been riding on his shoulders; and from that point the man alone, a gray-caped figure bearing a bright Sword in hand, walked alone into the field of doom and silence.

From there the Emperor walks to Yambu and sheaths the Sword. I'm pretty sure the Sword he's carrying is Woundhealer, just based on where the various known Swords were at that point. The one other Emperor/Sword interaction I can think of is when Coinspinner leads Mark to the Emperor. When Mark gets there, the Sword leaps out of his hand and into the sheath at the Emperor's waist before the Emperor gives it back to Mark. In none of these interactions is it clear to me that the Emperor is effected by the Swords, but neither is it obvious that he's not. I don't have a complete collection of the books of the missing swords, so I can't speak for what's in those. Any other questions about it while the books are fresh in my mind & the text is handy? Nite01002 (talk) 23:38, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The Sword in the Emperor's hand is Shieldbreaker. Recall, Sir Andrew is holding Shieldbreaker when Dame Yoldi and his advance force, under the influence of the Mindsword, savagely attack him. Andrew would rather die and let his own Sword fall into the hands of the Dark King than have his own men and Yoldi die by his hand, but the Sword won't let him go until they're all dead. He then collapses in despair. Dying, the Emperor unexpectedly shows up. He even removes his mask for Andrew, who recognizes his face (a moment I think tremendously important for understanding the Emperor's power). Anyway, the next time we see the Emperor, he has Shieldbreaker and sheathes Soulcutter. Did he really need Shieldbreaker to defend himself from Soulcutter?

The argument between Yambu and the Emperor does culminate in her drawing Soulcutter about an inch from the scabbard. Again, it isn't clear whether the Emperor left to escape the sword or simply because he chose to do so (he might also have wanted to avoid Yambu harming herself and her men her own Sword!).

Draffut reveals that he doesn't believe that the Emperor was fooled by Sightblinder for even a moment. Wood, in the Books of Lost Swords, attempts to use Wayfinder to locate the Emperor; the Sword fails. Why Coinspinner succeeds for Mark and Wayfinder fails for Wood is unknown. I'd forgotten Coinspinner leaping from Mark's hand, but you're right; Coinspinner leaves when it's ready and at no other time in the series is successfully taken by force like that. In light of the Emperor's mysterious connection with Ardneh and his description of himself at the end, it is I think deliberately left ambiguous whether the Swords have any power on him at all.

I added a paragraph on the connection between Yambu and the Emperor. Really, there needs to be a Yambu section of her own-- she is not a minor character. Wellspring (talk) 12:32, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Nite01002, I'm also pretty sure that the emperor had Shieldbreaker. Why do you think it is Woundshealer? I don't think Yambu was ever wounded. Wellspring, do you remember the text from when Wayfinder failed to find the Emperor? Could it be simply that there was no direction to get to the Emperor at the time or that Wood's desire could not be answered with a direction? --Bertrc (talk) 18:13, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, to be honest, largely because I forgot the Shieldbreaker was unaccounted for at that point (unless it's answered in the lost swords books, there never any confirmation the Emperor picks up Shieldbreaker, is there?) and knew that Woundhealer was last seen in Draffut's hand. Given Draffut gives the Emperor a (literal) lift to the site of Soulcutter and Woundhealer isn't in evidence on Draffut's "person" (dogson?) at that point... *shrug* I guess I just assumed. One of these days I'm going to remember to keep notes of every sword that appears and who has it as I read through the books.

Wellspring, what are you basing Yambu drawing the Sword an inch on? I just finished the books and it's far from clear in my mind that she ever got past the point of threats. Nite01002 (talk) 18:55, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Yambu and the Emperor

Re: [1] Is yhe series that clear cut as to their earlier relationship and why they separated? The present text seems a bit speculative/Original-researchy. I haven't read the series for a while, but I think my impression was that the Emperor took advantage of her (A powerful man seducing a vulnerable young kid) but, unexpectedly, found himself emotionally drawn to her spirit. I had thought they broke up because the emperor cheated on her and wanted to control her. Unless it is clearly stated, I think the only thing we can safely read into it is that they had a romatic relationship earlier in her life, during which the Emperor Fathered her child, and that Yambu broke up with him; she still harbors feelings of emnity towards him but he has always wanted to reconcile. --Bertrc (talk) 18:40, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't have the book handy for the quote, but the Emperor left Yambu after asking her to marry him. She had just consolidated her power and was intending to tell him "no". She turned to give an order to someone else, turned back to say no to him, and he had left before she did. When they meet much later on the eve of the battle where she draws Soulcutter, he comments that he never got an answer and wanted it then. I don't think there's any implication he took advantage of her, wanted to control her, nor cheated on her. Nite01002 (talk) 19:00, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

But what you describe above is during the series itself, no? I guess I have an issue with "However, on attaining her throne, the two became estranged for many years, with the ambitious, proud and distrustful Yambu threatened by his power, masculinity and poor reputation. The Emperor repeatedly attempts to reconcile with Yambu throughout the series. When she is old and powerless, she finally agrees." She is threatened by his masculinity? I thought that they split well before the series started (and I thought Yambu implied it was because he was unfaithful and a controlling) As written, the article makes it seem as though she shacks up with him to climb the social ladder; she dumps him like last year's fashions when she got what she wanted; then she comes crawling back once everything falls apart. Way back when I read the series, I thought it was more: as a young girl she becomes cold and bitter when her heart was broken by a powerful, charasmatic older man (the Emperor); she channelled her resentment ala Xena into conquering the world; then she achieves enlightenment when she learns how much her drive to power cost her and decided to give the jerk another chance, now that they were emotional equals. --Bertrc (talk) 01:40, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

The creation of the Gods

With the publishing of the novel "Ardneh's Sword" we now know how the gods were created. They were the result of some special high tech suits created by Ardneh that granted the wearer godlike powers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CF7B:3560:C57D:FB55:AF7C:FBCE (talk) 15:36, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

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Merger proposal

I propose to merge Empire of the East series into Books of Swords. Since these two sets of books are set in the same universe, and discussion of either series consistently mentions the other series, I think they constitute one "topic" best served by a single article. It's possible that the merged article should be renamed to "The Ardneh sequence" (as this set of books is named in the List of works by Fred Saberhagen), or something else, though I currently prefer to keep "Books of Swords" since that seems to be how the series is usually referred to in the sources. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 22:36, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. The fact that there is no overarching title for all the novels put together shows that these are viewed as two series, albeit connected ones. "The Ardneh sequence" is WP:OR, and Ardneh doesn't get more than passing mentions in the Swords books (he's dead, Jim). Clarityfiend (talk) 04:59, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose: They're a separate series altogether. Ravenswing 19:25, 11 October 2020 (UTC)