Talk:Coat of arms of Albania

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Heraldry and vexillology

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Untitled section[edit]

Is the Albanian eagle emblem in any way related to the Byzantine eagle ?

http://www.unl.edu/efa/courses/315/eagle.gif

Also, could that 'helmet' be a phrygian cap ? Bogdan | Talk 16:00, 30 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, not sure, but I doubt it. The double headed eagle has been seen in many places. In the case of Albania, it came from the time of Skanderbeg, and his clan's flag. The helmet also comes from him. There is a legend/story that once he was helped by a goat find a path through the mountains and escape the Turkish armies, so that's where that comes from. Dori | Talk 04:01, Jun 1, 2004 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating[edit]

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 16:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Emblem vs. CoA[edit]

Why is this called "emblem", and not "Coat of arms"? This is not like France, Belarus or other soviet emblems that took the place of the coats of arms. ES Vic (talk) 17:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure. This is clearly a coat of arms. I'd recommend a move.--Eva ^bd 19:17, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've made a move.--Eva ^bd 15:04, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Albania state emblem.svg[edit]

Question copied from User talk:Sgt bilko: Image:Albania state emblem.svg has a yellow border. Is that border part of the coat of arms, or is it just a graphical nicety? --Palnatoke 08:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

confusion of tongues[edit]

"Turkish: Arnaut, Greek: Arbanas, Arbanensis, Italian: Albanian, Epirotarum, Albanensis, Albanian: Arber, Arben, Arberesh, Epirotas."

–ensis is Latin, not Greek, not Italian. Epirotarum is Latin genitive plural, 'of the Epirotes'. Albanian is not a normal Italian form, though Albaniano may be. I don't know about Arbanas. —Tamfang (talk) 17:56, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Coat of arms of Albania 1992 version[edit]

I've found that from 1992 until 1998 it was used without the Skanderbeg's helmet, and after it was replaced. I saw it from this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJPkD5R8xKc it is about the first assassination of the albanian deputy Azem Hajdari, you can see the emblem in the front of the building 2:16 min, 2:27 min as he is taking his speech in the podium after he survived, then you can see it again hanging on the wall of the Parliament from 3:52 min. AceDouble (talk) 15:37, 30 January 2013 (UTC).[reply]

Title terminology[edit]

The page name should be "coat of arms of Albania". It is referred as such in the constitution, using the Albanian word "stema", meaning "coat of arms". It is only referred to as an "emblem" in unofficial English translations. The constitution contains the blazon, and the state symbols law only provides further non-heraldic specifications. The same shield was used historically too. Dughorm (talk) 12:36, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Dughorm: You are incorrect. The exact translation of the word "stema" is "emblem". You don't have to be a native speaker such as myself to know this. Google Translate can do that for you. Also, the official website of the President of the Republic also uses the word Emblem https://president.al/simbolet Kj1595 (talk) 17:57, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kj1595: Based on what you linked, the Albanian word specifically for an emblem is "emblema". "Stema" is derived from Italian "stemma" meaning a coat of arms, which the symbol of Albania is. You don't have to be a heraldist such as myself to know this. Google Translate is in no way reliable, and people who are not familiar with proper heraldic practice, especially in former socialist states, misuse the words for coats of arms in their respective languages for any kind of a state emblem, even if it is not heraldic. The coat of arms of Albania is a coat of arms by all definitions, and its article's name should reflect that. — Dughorm (talk) 08:43, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Dughorm: As a native Albanian speaker, and as evidenced by Google Translate, the exact translation of the word Stema is indeed Emblem. The word is derived from Italian, true. But in Albanian, that is the translation. Coat of arms terminology does not exist in Albanian language or Albanian heraldry for that matter. The official website of the President of the Republic refers to it as Emblem. Your only argument is that because this word comes from the italian Stemma that it must mean that. Well, no. Different countries use different word terminologies. Official sources refer to it as Emblem. Kj1595 (talk) 09:41, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kj1595: Try inserting "stemë" into Google Translate instead. It outputs a range of synonyms, including "coat of arms", which the Albanian symbol is. What you consider to be the only correct translation is irrelevant. The proof you provide is cherrypicked and biased with attempts to confirm your conviction. Also stop reverting my edits without even bothering to check the typos and faulty translation I have fixed and calling it "removing content for no reason". Dughorm (talk) 11:44, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Dughorm: I inserted that and it gave as a 6th suggestion the word "arms". Not "coat of arms" like you stubbornly keep insisting. So, your argument once again fails. In both versions, "stema" and "stemë" the word EMBLEM is the 1st suggestion. I gave you an official source which is the office of the President of the Republic and you call it cherrypicking? Really? Kj1595 (talk) 23:33, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kj1595:: "Arms" and "coat of arms" mean the same, as well as "blazon" and "blazonry" being synonymous to those (https://i.imgur.com/uoO2Gaj.png). This is a clear indicator of you not being qualified to talk of heraldic terminology, whether native or not in Albanian. The website of the president may be an official source but it is not the definitive source - and the regulating laws clearly use "stema" and not "emblema", as the presidential website does in both English and Albanian with no respect to the law. And, as I have said numerous times, the coat of arms of Albania is a coat of arms, thus its English article's name should reflect that and not your conviction. Being a "native speaker", Google Translate translation result order and strong convictions are not sufficient of an argument. Lastly, each coat of arms is an emblem, but all of those that are specifically arms are named as such on English Wikipedia regardless of their designation in foreign languages. Please let those who care about heraldry and not nationalism handle the heraldic section of Wikipedia. — Dughorm (talk) 08:46, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Dughorm: Again, in both translations of the word, EMBLEM is the 1st suggestion. The word "arms" is a 6th suggestion. How can you argue that? What exactly is your argument? You have yet to make one. Your only assertion is that it must be "coat of arms" because it cannot be anything else? I mean, where is your argument? Kj1595 (talk) 19:21, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kj1595: How about we completely ignore how you believe "stema" would have to be translated and call it a coat of arms in English because it is a coat of arms? "Stema" may refer to an emblem, but here it means "coat of arms". Why do you even keep insisting on this minor detail you don't even understand yourself? You are also the one who added the "blazon" to the infobox after I removed it much earlier in favor of a translation of the official descriptions. If it is a shield with a blazon, it's a coat of arms. It's not the only of your self-contradictions, just to note. Dughorm (talk) 20:23, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism[edit]

User:Kj1595 has been vandalizing the article for months, making hundreds of edits over a short amount of time, moving the article to include "emblem" in the name despite having no solid reason except their own convictions, and in spite of numerous cases of users disagreeing in the past, removing content, and reducing the quality of formatting. I am currently in the process of restoring it to the previous state as of 14:16, 4 July 2020 while preserving the few good contributions made by that user. — Dughorm (talk) 10:20, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Dughorm: You are the one vandalizing this thread without providing any sound arguments. Kj1595 (talk) 19:17, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kj1595: I have provided all the needed evidence. You keep unilaterally making significant changes and dismissing all the arguments. Once again, cease making changes and let other people who know better contribute. — Dughorm (talk) 19:48, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Dughorm: What evidence have you provided? And how can you know better than me when I have authored more than 90% of Albanian heraldry images in Commons? Kj1595 (talk) 19:52, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Dughorm: You have been reported to the Admin Noticeboard for vandalism. Kj1595 (talk) 20:08, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kj1595: You are the one who is doing vandalism. I'm merely undoing it. Stop pretending like you own this article and cease reverting productive contributions. Dughorm (talk) 20:10, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Dughorm: That's up for an admin to decide. Kj1595 (talk) 20:12, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kj1595: You are the one with a history of cancelling other people's work. I'll admit, I'm not familiar with all the reporting stuff so you saved me the trouble of looking for a way to report your behavior. Dughorm (talk) 20:16, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Dughorm:Do you realize that all the emblems that you brought back are mostly the product of the fantasy of the fans or with significant changes from the original emblems. The version you propose to return has only 3 references which are all integrated in the new version and supported by official or reliable sources. I understand the fact that everyone can create an emblem in their own way, but here we are talking about an article that talks about the official emblems of the state and that most of them are protected by special laws up to constitutional laws as well.Bes-ART Talk 20:49, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Bes-ART: I have not undone any of the positive contributions by Kj1595, nor have I proposed to remove the content. On a different note, I doubt your being unbiased, as even your Wikipedia user page screams "Albanian nationalism". If you have any contributions to provide without biases, feel free to add new information with sources to back it up. — Dughorm (talk) 21:05, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You are not in a position to say what I am or I am not. I suggest you read more about the behavior on wikipedia, like WP:CIV or otherwise you will be reported for offensive attacks on other users.Bes-ART Talk 21:17, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry for any offence I may have caused. I am merely being cautious of nationalist biases due to the natural controversy of political topics, and would prefer articles on heraldry to be written by those who care about heraldry first of all. I apologize for somewhat insensitive wording I've employed. — Dughorm (talk) 21:27, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, most of the article is built based on emblems created entirely by someone's fantasy and in some cases have been reported as disputed images. From the edit history of @Kj1595: it seems that the article is a work un progress and is slowly being completed with additional emblems vectorized by him and supporting sources. If something is not agreed upon there are much more civil ways to resolve disputes, first and foremost WP:AGF, WP:COMPROMISE, and than you can use WP:DRN or WP:3O.Bes-ART Talk 21:48, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You do not have the authority to call sourced files "fictional emblems". There wouldn't have been a dispute if Kj1595 didn't keep reverting any changes as if they own a monopoly on the article. They also made reverts while a dispute is open, which does not do them any good. Dughorm (talk) 11:52, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What sources are you speaking of? Give me each source for each image you want to put in this article and let's analize its credibility?? Do you really believe the House of Kastrioti coat of arms to be a legitimate historical image? Just look at the sources in that image. Or the Kingdom of Albania under italian occupation emblem which is a composite of two fictional images that even the source itself indicates? Or Wied's emblem that has as a source "own work"??? Kj1595 (talk) 18:10, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ever heard of this thing called "heraldry"? The coat of arms of George Castrioti is known, and any depiction of it is valid as long as it follows the blazon. Go read the article on heraldry, maybe then you would know the coat of arms of Albania is a coat of arms. Dughorm (talk) 17:26, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's not about what you believe or want it to be called. Official sources use the word Emblem. Until that changes, there is little to argue here. Kj1595 (talk) 18:07, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Even our sister country, Kosovo, uses the same official terminology for their state symbol. It's the same terminology used in the local government as well. Example:https://kk.rks-gov.net/mitroviceejugut/mitrovice-4/emblema-e-komunes-se-mitrovices — And we speak the same language so that should be telling. Kj1595 (talk) 18:15, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

France, Israel, Eritrea, Kazakhstan, Democratic Republic of the Congo, North Macedonia all use the word Emblem. Are you going to change the name in those articles as well? Kj1595 (talk) 18:40, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There's this thing called contextual translation. Stema may be de facto used to refer to any emblem, but when it is used to refer to a coat of arms, it should be translated accordingly. Whichever symbol the unrecognized state of Kosovo uses does not have roots in heraldry, and does not have any kind of a description, so that one may be called an emblem. The emblem of France is not even official, the emblem of Israel does not have a description and is monochrome, the emblem of Eritrea is not supposed to be a coat of arms. While the emblems of Kazakhstan and the DRC are officially called with the words for a coat of arms, neither of them is one, and stems from the same misuse for the word for any kind of a state emblem as is present in Albanian. As such, it's translated based on the context: while both Russia and Belarus use the same word for their symbols, its original meaning being "coat of arms", they are called respectively "coat of arms of Russia" and "national emblem of Belarus" on Wikipedia. Again, look on the talk page above - there is a decision to rename the article to call the symbol a coat of arms, which you have unilaterally overridden for no reason except your personal conviction based on misuse of certain words. All the Wikipedia precedents support my position and you have proven not to be knowledgeable in heraldry or translation theory. — Dughorm (talk) 20:45, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm tired of arguing about this. Go ahead and change it to "Coat of arms" but please do not undo the layout changes of the article without giving a good reason. Kj1595 (talk) 21:41, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Glad we have finally reached an agreement at least on something. The page must be moved to "Coat of arms of Albania", as it includes symbols from before the republic, but making that move is for some reason impossible. — Dughorm (talk) 08:16, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Dughorm Request WP:3O and let others decide. But if Italy which uses Emblema, I would leave it as it is.Bes-ART Talk 22:10, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The emblem of Italy is not heraldic — no shield, thus it's called "emblema", while San Marino calls their coat of arms "stemma". Ones with shields following the rules of heraldry are titled coats of arms even if the native language does not differentiate between the two. — Dughorm (talk) 08:11, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

the question of Fraktur[edit]

The transverse part of the letter ‘t’ is from a calligraphic font called Fraktur,

Sadly I don't have an image, but I'm guessing that this sentence means to say that one stroke of one letter (!) is consistent with the calligraphic style called Fraktur … which is a range of styles, not a single fixed style, let alone a single font (did fonts have names at that time?). —Tamfang (talk) 18:58, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]