Talk:And Then There Were None

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Former good article nomineeAnd Then There Were None was a Language and literature good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
April 10, 2009Good article nomineeNot listed

Relevance of Septimus Winner rhyme[edit]

It doesn't seem right to present the 1868 Septimus Winner version of the rhyme as being in some way equivalent to the 1869 Frank Green version, for the purpose of this book. It's quite clear that the Frank Green version is the one that Christie actually used; the other is quite different, although obviously related. I'd suggest removing the text of Septimus Winner and just referring to it by way of historical background. This is not an article about alternative variants of the rhyme, but about a specific novel. Thoughts? MichaelMaggs (talk) 21:41, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

MichaelMaggs, I think it makes it clear why Indians was used as a term when niggers was considered offensive, for at least one published version. Just an idea of mine. --Prairieplant (talk) 06:29, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That should be discussed of course, but I don't think that needs us to quote the entirety of a different historical rhyme - one that is not used at all in the book. MichaelMaggs (talk) 08:35, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Getting back to the above, still no evidence has been presented that Christie's rhyme was partly "derived from" the 1868 Septimus Winner text. She obviously didn't use it directly, and we don't have a single source stating that Frank Green's rhyme (which is what she did use) was derived from Septimus Winner. They could just as well have both some from some other, common, source. I'm proposing to remove the full text of Septimus Winner, and just refer to it in passing. MichaelMaggs (talk) 12:53, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with that approach, and action. The main interest of the 1868 version is it might have influenced the US publishers to shift from the term niggers to the term Indians instead of little boys or people or men any other phrase that might be used in the 1868 version. It is clear it did not influence the author in writing her novel. --
This is more complicated than expected. I have not been able to find the complete 1869 Frank Green lyrics online, but I doubt that what we have in the article is accurate, as a 1869 British publication would hardly have used the US spelling of "traveling". I may need to search out an original songsheet when I'm next in the British Library. All earlier versions I can find online end up with the last Indian (or Injun in some versions) getting married, not dying by hanging. It's unclear whether hanging was in the Green version, or whether that was added for the purpose of the story by Christie. Also, was Septimus Winner's 1868 version derived from some earlier traditional nursery rhyme? There are suggestions that it was, but what evidence do we have for that? Ten Little Indians is unclear. Some information here. MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:53, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The way it's written in the entry is incorrect, but this is also incorrect. If you look at the sheet music cover it's credited to Septimus Winner AND Frank Green. That's because Frank Green's version does open with Winner's "One little, two little three little..." There is a very old British children's record you can hear on Youtube that opens with Winner's rhyme, then goes into the new Frank Green lyrics that Christie uses. Jeri Southern (talk) 05:57, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have a link to the sheet music online? MichaelMaggs (talk) 07:52, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

True location?[edit]

I am editing this, mainly because I didn't enjoy asking it, but, is the island based on a real life island? If Christie holidayed on an island that was too dangerous to get to and from by swimming, sounds like good inspiration for a murder mystery. Middle More Rider (talk) 23:42, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Schmoop thinks it is based on a real island, but it is not part of the description of the novel on the official Agatha Christie website. Without a reliable source, and I do not consider Schmoop a reliable source as it had no footnote as to where they learned this, I would not add this to the article. If this is included in a biography about the author, that might be a reliable source. - - Prairieplant (talk) 20:21, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Missing movie adaption[edit]

Whilst it's not a direct adaption I think the film Identity (2003) has enough in common to maybe considered adding 81.187.69.130 (talk) 14:41, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Change cover image to reflect article title?[edit]

Resolved. SN54129 20:21, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It's more than a little jarring to see the N word in giant letters the moment you open this page, especially since the page title doesn't reflect the novel's original title. Could we find the first cover featuring the "And Then There Were None" title and use that instead? 2601:1C1:8501:F557:898:6A25:929A:71C5 (talk) 19:38, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, sorry. SN54129 20:21, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

1939, 1940; collier & sons edition[edit]

I have a version titled “And Then There Were None” copywritten 1940 by P. F. Collier and Son Corporation with “manufactured in the U.S.A.” that does not appear on the publications list, and the first printing in 1939 would be an earlier version than the first claimed US version from January 1940 Dodd publishing. My version also uses “Indians” throughout. Any insight? Pictures attached in reply. 2601:188:CC7F:E60:4173:6174:5E51:FB49 (talk) 05:01, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1]https://postimg.cc/gallery/s7GsCks 2601:188:CC7F:E60:4173:6174:5E51:FB49 (talk) 05:06, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Where did you find 1939 as the first print? Your book has "Copyright 1939, 1940". I presume that refers to the original 1939 UK edition and 1940 is the additional copyright for the US adaption. That is a beautiful hardback, no doubt a plethora of avid Christie fans are foaming at the mouth jealous :) BeardedChimp (talk) 18:18, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Changing cover image[edit]

Resolved. ——Serial Number 54129 18:35, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


I know this was already mentioned, but it was closed without a reason why it shouldn't be changed.

It's more than a little jarring to see the N word in giant letters the moment you open this page, especially since the page title doesn't reflect the novel's original title. Could we find the first cover featuring the "And Then There Were None" title and use that instead? Or just don't have a cover? 23.120.125.83 (talk) 23:33, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is Wikipedia, not Baby's First Encyclopedia, and Wikipedia is not censored. It's standard practice to have a picture of the first edition in articles pertaining to books. Zacwill (talk) 04:10, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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