User talk:Felix Wan/Draft/Penkyamp

My logic is: Guangdong-Hong Kong is a strong economic/cultural zone. It needs a strong native language of its own. Of course, well, now the Javanese use Bahasa Indonesia, the Venetians use Tuscan and the Punjabis use Urdu. But Cantonese has potentials! Don't let it become another Javanese, Veneto or Punjabi! It should become another Catalan!

http://iris.lib.virginia.edu/tibet/tools/tibkbd_doc.htm This page has all the ALT instructions for ALL the diacritics in Cantonese
http://iris.lib.virginia.edu/tibet/tools/diacritic_chart.html This page has all the Unicode "Entity Names" "Decimals" "Hex" for ALL the Cantonese diacritics
http://www.towo.net/mined/mnemodoc.html Hex and Mnemic
http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/madore/misc/unitest/ Simple Unicode Testpage
http://utne.nvg.org/w/diakrit.html Nynorsk page with unicode(comprehensive)
http://escholarship.cdlib.org/unicodetest.html I believe the tildes are in "Latin Extended-A" the rest are in Latin-l supplement
http://vlado.fmf.uni-lj.si/seminar/fonts/times.htm Again, Latin Extended 29x 36x and 786x
http://pub.ks-and-ks.ne.jp/prog/unicode-precomposed.html They are found in "Precomposed" and "Composed" characters, guess there are two ways of writing them
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%C5%A9+%C4%A9+%E1%BA%BD+%C3%A0+%C3%A1+%C3%A2+%C3%A3+%C3%A4+%C3%A8+%C3%A9+%C3%AA+%C3%AB+%C3%AC+%C3%AD+%C3%AE+%C3%AF+%C3%B2+%C3%B3+%C3%B4+%C3%B5+%C3%B6+%C3%B9+%C3%BA+%C3%BB+%C3%BC+&btnG=Google+Search&meta= The Google Search for all Cantonese diacritics
http://www.google.ca/search?q=%C4%A9++++++%C3%B5+++++++++%C5%A9&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta= Searched the web for ĩ õ ũ.
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%E1%BA%BC+++++++%C4%A8+++++++++%C5%A8&btnG=Google+Search&meta= Searched the web for Ẽ Ĩ Ũ.

Fonts[edit]

Cantonese Font:

http://www.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/ressources/ti/guide_test_unicode_utf8_B.html

ÀÁAÂÃÄ, ÈÉEÊ(Ẽ)Ë, ÌÍIÎ(Ĩ)Ï, ÒÓOÔÕÖ, ÙÚUÛ(Ũ)Ü;

àáaâãä, èéeê(ẽ)ë, ìíiî(ĩ)ï, òóoôõö, ùúuû(ũ)ü;

From Common Western Font missing: E-tilde I-tilde U-tilde

http://www.xuquang.com/trungdao/unicode.htm

E-tilde is obtainable from Vietnamese font Ẽ ẽ
I-tilde is obtainable from Vietnamese font Ĩ ĩ
U-tilde is obtainable from Vietnamese font Ũ ũ

Ẽ Ĩ Ũ ũ ĩ ẽ

http://www.xuquang.com/trungdao/unicode.htm

It is discovered that the three tildes are contained in Lithuanian and Latvian Which is available in 2002 XP Word

http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/unicode/alphabet/balttest.htm

1. Lithuanian:

A Ą B C Č D E Ę Ė F G H I Į Y J K L M N O P R S Š T U Ų Ū V Z Ž

a ą b c č d e ę ė f g h i į y j k l m n o p r s š t u ų ū v z ž

ã ą̃ ẽ ė̃ ę̃ ĩ į̃ ỹ õ ũ ū̃ ų̃ l̃ m̃ ñ r̃ á ą́ é ė́ ę́ í į́ ý ó ú ū́ ų́ à è ì ù

2. Latvian:

A Ā B C Č D E Ē F G Ģ H I Ī J K Ķ L Ļ M N Ņ O P R Ŗ S Š T U Ū V Z Ž

a ā b c č d e ē f g ģ h i ī j k ķ l ļ m n ņ o p r ŗ s š t u ū v z ž

ã ẽ ĩ õ ũ l̃ m̃ ñ r̃ â ê î ô û à è ì ò ù

Also, Guarani employs the three tildes

http://gn.wikipedia.com/

Discovered also in the African Twi Language

http://sivanataraja.free.fr/phone/non-ie/afrique/langues.htm

Also discovered in the South American Tupi Language

Cantonese Font:

http://www.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/ressources/ti/guide_test_unicode_utf8_B.html

À Á Â Ã Ä È É Ê Ë Ì Í Î Ï Ò Ó Ô Õ Ö Ù Ú Û Ü

à á â ã ä è é ê ë ì í î ï ò ó ô õ ö ù ú û ü

From Common Western Font need: E-tilde I-tilde U-tilde

http://www.xuquang.com/trungdao/unicode.htm

E-tilde is obtainable from Vietnamese font Ẽ ẽ
I-tilde is obtainable from Vietnamese font Ĩ ĩ
U-tilde is obtainable from Vietnamese font Ũ ũ

Ẽ Ĩ Ũ  
ũ ĩ ẽ

http://www.xuquang.com/trungdao/unicode.htm

But Vietnamese Font doesn't have other Cantonese diacritics

a á à ả ã ạ
ă ắ ằ ẳ ẵ ặ
â ấ ầ ẩ ẫ ậ
e é è ẻ ẽ ẹ
ê ế ề ể ễ ệ
i í ì ỉ ĩ ị
o ó ò ỏ õ ọ
ô ố ồ ổ ỗ ộ
ơ ớ ờ ở ỡ ợ
u ú ù ủ ũ ụ
ư ứ ừ ử ữ ự
y ý ỳ ỷ ỹ ỵ
đ

(Consonants aided by International Phonetic Alphabets. In order to see proper display of IPA, you need to download Unicode font)

Special Attention

C is [ts'] as "tz" in Politzer.
Z [tz] is the unaspirated form of C.
q is a glottal stop, Arabic "hamsa", as it appears in Cantonese interjection lâq which is interchangeable with lâg.

Vowels:

   * long: A E I O U Eo Eu
   * short: Ah Eh Oh
   * diphthongs1: Ai Oi Ui Au Iu Ay Ey Oy Aw Ow

diphthongs2: single vowels and diphthongs1 preceded by semi-vowel u, such as uay as in guây (expensive)

Yunmus aided by International Phonetic Symbols

long

   * A [a] ("a" alone or followed by "g", "b", "d", "ng", "m", "n", "i", "u")
   * E [ɛ] open-mid front unrounded
   * I [i]
   * O [ɔ]open-mid back rounded
   * U [u]
   * Eo [ɶ] open-mid front rounded

Eu [y]

short

   * Ah [ɠ]open-mid back unrounded ("a" followed by "h", "k", "p", "t", "nk", "mp", "nt", "y", "w")
   * Eh [e] close-mid front unrounded ("e" followed by above)

Oh [o] close-mid back rounded ("o" followed by above)

diphthongs

   * Ai [ai]
   * Oi [ɔy]
   * Ui [uy]
   * Au [au]
   * Iu [iw]
   * Ay [ɠj]
   * Ey [ej]
   * Oy [øy] (ø is mid-close front rounded)
   * Aw [ɠu]

Ow [ow]

Short vowels are those in short yunmus, and long vowels in long yunmus. All short vowels are pronounced with tighter, smaller enclosure of lips than are their long counterparts.

Orthography Long yunmus followed by consonants:

   * Ru:
   o Ab Ad Ag
   * Ping/shang/qu:
         o Am An Ang
         o Eg Eng
         o Ib Id Im In
         o Od Og On Ong

o Ud Un

Short yunmus followed by consonants:

   * Ru:
   o Ap At Ak
   * P/S/Q:
         o Amp Ant Ank
         o Ek Enk

o Ot Ok Ont Onk

Tones

  1. Yin1Ping2 or high Yin1Ru4 (Yamp1Penk4 cum high Yamp1Yap6): a1, ä (umlaut)
  2. Yin1Shang3(Yamp1Seong5): a2, ã (tilde)
  3. Yin1Qu4 or low Yin1Ru4 (Yamp1Hoy3 cum low Yamp1Yap6): a3, â (circumflex)
  4. Yang2Ping2(Yeong4Penk4): a4, a (plain)
  5. Yang2Shang3(Yeong4Seong5): a5, á (acute)
  6. Yang2Qu4(Yeong4Hoy3): a6, à (grave)

6 tones represented by numerical scales of pitch, "1" being the lowest, "6" the highest"

   * First: "Zäw" tone, scale= 66
   * Second: "Hãw" tone, scale= 35
   * Third: "Dîm" tone, scale= 44
   * Fourth: "Ho" tone, scale= 11
   * Fifth: "Mów", scale=24

Sixth: "Dòw", scale=22

Either the tone numbers 1-6 or the diacritic marks may be used

note: a shortcut for memorizing all 6 of them is a couplet:

Zaw1 Haw2 Dim3, Ho4 Mow2 Dow6 Zhou1 Kou3 Dian4, He2 Mu3 Du4 (Mandarin) (周口店, 河姆渡)

Zhoukoudian is an archeological site near Beijing containing a 500,000 year old Homo Erectus habitat; Hemudu is a Zhejiang archeological site of Neolithic human activities

Sample Text sample in the Standard Cantonese Penk3yamp1 (simplified chinese text are place holders for now):

trad. simp. pinyin Penkyamp meaning 北京北京 Bei3 jing1 Bak1 genk1 Beijing 花花 Hua1 Fa1 flower 寫寫 Xie3 Se3 write 字字 Zi4 Zi6 chinese character 我我 Wo3 Ngo5 I, me 湖湖 Hu2 Wu4 lake 靴靴 Xue1 Heo1 boot 柱柱 Zhu4 Ceu5 pillar t s ba4 lah1 one of the interjections at the end of a sentence 壞壞 Huai4 Wai6 bad 外外 Wai4 Ngoi6 outside 背背 Bei4 Bui3 back 教教 Jiao1 Gau3 teach 腰腰 Yao1 Yiu1 waist 肺肺 Fei4 Fay3 lung 地地 Di4 Dey6 ground t s Zhui1 Zoy1 persue 狗狗 Gou3 Gaw2 dog 路路 Lu4 Low6 road 鴨鴨 Ya1 Ngab3 duck 殺殺 Sha1 Sad3 kill 百百 Bai3 Bag3 hundred 三三 San1 Sam1 three 慢慢 Man4 Man6 slow 行行 Xing2 Hang4 walk 劇劇 Ju4 Keg6 drama 鏡鏡 Jing4 Geng3 mirror 頁頁 Ye4 Yib6 page 熱熱 Re4 Yid6 hot 劍劍 Jian4 Gim3 sword 線線 Xian4 Sin3 thread 渴渴 Ke3 Hod3 thirst 國國 Guo2 Guog3 state,nation 岸岸 An4 Ngon6 shore 幫幫 Bang1 Bong1 help 活活 Huo2 Wud6 to live 換換 Huan4 Wun6 exchange, replace 急急 Ji2 Gap1 hasty 失失 Shi1 Sat1 lost 得得 De2 Dak1 gain 心心 Xin1 Samp1 heart 新新 Xin1 Sant1 new 生生 Sheng1 Sank1 student 食食 Shi2 Sek6 to eat 精精 Jing1 Zenk1 essence 出出 Chu1 Cot1 outside 哭哭 Ku1 Hok1 to cry, weep 信信 Xin4 Sont3 to trust 中中 Zhong1 Zonk1 middle

Location of this article[edit]

Why not move it to Penkyamp? --Jiang

If Penkyamp is just a type of Cantonese Romanization, then this article needs to be split. --Jia ng 11:12, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I agree, but note that there aren't any writeups on other Cantonese romanizations besides Penkyamp. --Xiaopo's Talk 20:35, Dec 24, 2003 (UTC)

Who invented the system?[edit]

Who invented Penkyamp? Where is its official home page? Or, is this an original research? I am familiar with the popular romanization schemes of Cantonese, and I am surprised to see an unfamiliar system widely used in Wikipedia. I checked the history and found that it was first posted by an anonymous user!

The article seems to say that the system is an improvement to the Jyutping system proposed by the Linguistic Society of Hong Kong. So which organization or group is behind this system? Can supporters of this system find it and add it to the article? -- Felix Wan 02:18, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Today I found a clue on how the article got into Wikipedia. I found an archive at an discussion forum:

Penkyamp, ideal Cantonese romanization for Hong Kong and Guangdong's mother tong

This link is the search that found the discussion

The old article in Wikipedia even claimed that it is a standard in Guangzhou, Hong Kong, Kuala Lumpur, Vancouver and San Francisco. That was very dishonest and was later changed. However, the current version is still misleading. Some people, like the editors of omniglot, are clearly misled. The comparison of Jyutping and Penkyamp to Hepburn and Kunrei, first proposed by anonymous user 129.100.152.206, is also misleading. Hepburn is the de facto system and Kunrei is proposed by the Japanese government. Neither Jyutping nor Penkyamp has gained such popularity or officiality.

Meanwhile, I do not propose a vote for removal. I believe it is not just an original research, but a viable movement to write Cantonese using Latin alphabets. I am only trying to rephrase the description to make it less misleading and more NPOV. Supporters of the system please correct me if what I am saying is not the fact.

-- Felix Wan 01:48, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

from VfD[edit]

For reference, the discussion about the deletion nomination can be found at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Penkyamp. Rossami (talk)