Talk:Designated survivor

Selection

Who is it this year?

Fascinating! The kind of trivia that makes it all worth it for a encyclopedia-nut!!—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 10:34, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)

How is the designated survivor chosen? United States presidential line of succession says that it's done at random, but is this really true, and if so who conducts the random selection and by what means? I would have thought they just agree it amongst themselves based on more practical considerations, but in any case we need a source. — Trilobite (Talk) 20:30, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

More importantly, who appoints them? Not the Secret Service, surely! The statement that "However, Secret Service rules prevented Clinton from being named the designated survivor since it was public knowledge that she was at a conference in London during the event" must be wrong!Royalcourtier (talk) 05:55, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

A designated survivor needs to be in an undisclosed location to limit the possibility of a decapitation attack if Secretary Clinton had been the designated survivor the someone could launch a coordinated attack on the capital and Secretary Clinton,since the conference was a public event the location was disclosed. Which increases the possibility as a coordinator attack rather than the designated Survivor who was in an undisclosed location.

   I imagine that the designated survivor is chosen with the final say so of the President with input from the White House staff particular Chief of Staff. In coordination with the Secret Service based on what major policies and achievements are being highlighted in the address. 

    The Secret Service has very strict rules when it comes to presidential protection and continuity of government most administration quickly discover that it is better to listen to them rather than take security risks.98.31.37.25 (talk) 22:59, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Reagan funeral

Media guff at the time suggested the procedure applied for Ronald Reagan's state funeral. Truth or hyperbole? Joestynes 17:18, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Likely hyperbole. Unless every other member of the Cabinet were at the funeral, this would've been unnecessary. It's possible, though. --BDD (talk) 20:26, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Supreme Court

Does anyone know if this rule is also to do with the Supreme Court members? minnesotajohn29 24, June 2007

The Supremes don't need an emergency continuity plan; they can be replaced as needed as soon as there's a president and a Senate capable of confirming appointments. - JasonAQuest (talk) 21:31, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Sen. and Rep.

Why are several Senators/Reps. listed for 2005 and 2006? They appear to have no place in the presidential line of succession. Rmhermen 18:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

One of the intro paragraphs mentions how Congress designates its own survivors so that the United States won't be completely without a legislature in the event of a catastrophe. —Cleared as filed. 22:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, one of the Senators, Ted Stevens, actually is ahead of the cabinet designated survivor in the line of succession. He is the President pro tempore of the U.S. Senate. — Scm83x ^talk 22:13, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Gunpowder Plot

Is this custom of having a designated survivor due to the Gunpowder Plot in the British Parliament? The article doesn't say. I'd modify it but I don't know this for sure, so I thought I'd throw it in here.

I'm almost certain that it was more to do with the Cold War. In any case, given the multitudinous lines of succession (to the Crown), its very likely that there would be someone not far away who could take over. 68.39.174.238 04:53, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect Information

On 24 January 2007 editor 207.188.199.227, a known vandal, added information that I am pretty positive is incorrect. The Speaker of the House comes after the Vice-President in the order of succesion. This information needs to be checked or deleted as unsourced. Simesa 17:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

What about Inaugurals

With the upcoming Obama inaugural, I would like to know how the designated survivor is chosen. The article does not mention a situation like this. ABC101090 (talk) 15:43, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Rump Legislature?

The article say “Since 2005, members of Congress have also served as designated survivors. In addition to serving as a rump legislature in the event that all of their colleagues were killed, a surviving Representative and Senator could ascend to the offices of Speaker of the House and President Pro Tempore of the Senate”

According to Article One of the United States Constitution, the US House of Representatives and the US Senate each need a quorum of a simple majority of their respective members to do business. The Senate has the additional requirement in Rule VI of its standing rules of a "majority of the members duly chosen and sworn.” If they do not have a quorum they cannot conduct business, so there cannot be a Rump Legislature nor can they ascend to the offices of Speaker of the House or President Pro Tempore of the Senate.--Lord Don-Jam (talk) 16:54, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Clinton for 2010

While a reference might be appropriate, I think that instead a hatnote would work better and having that hat note at the end of the list, instead of with the references.Naraht (talk) 13:50, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

2010 Clinton/Donovan

I've reverted an edit which replaced a sourced statement: "Clinton, not Donovan, would have become Acting President as her office is higher in the line of succession," with the unsourced statement "Donovan would have become Acting President of the United States; he would not have been replaced by Clinton (even though her office is higher in the line of succession) according to the terms of Section (d) of the law."

Clinton would not need to "replace" Donovan; assuming Clinton was alive and well in the event of an attack on the Capitol which killed the President, VP, Speaker, and Senate Pres. pro tempore, she would become the Acting President under the Presidential Succession Act. The fact that she was out of the country at a publicly disclosed location did disqualify her as designated survivor. But the choice of a designated survivor does not alter the line of succession; it simply serves to ensure that at least one person in the line survives a catastrophic event. Her location was not a disability to discharge the duties of the presidency under the constitution, or 3 U.S.C. § 19. If it was, then every time the VP is out of the country, the Speaker would be next in line during the VPs absence, that's just not the case. Feel free to provide sources which suggest otherwise. Wine Guy Talk 01:45, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I did not notice that your source stated that "Clinton would have become Acting President." If your source did say that, I apologize for my edit. I should have checked more carefully before making that change. Given how unique and old news this story is, I don't know if I can get a source for my assessment but I'll check around to see what is out there. I should have

Allow me to explain a bit about my thought process for the edit, if you will. If you see can highlight any flaws or problems in my reasoning, and you care to write them, I'd be eager to see them.

Fact #1- If, for any reason, Secretary Donovan were to become Acting President of the United States, he could not be replaced by a higher-ranking Cabinet officer. (See Section(d)(2) of the Presidential Succession Act which states, in pertinent part, "the removal of the disability of an individual higher on [the list of Cabinet officers] or the ability to qualify on the part of an individual higher [on the list of Cabinet officers] shall not terminate his service.") Acting President Donovan could only be replaced by a President pro tempore or a Speaker of the House (replacing one Acting President with another), or by a Vice President or a President-elect (replacing an Acting President with a President of the United States.)

Fact #2- In order for a Cabinet officer to become Acting President of the United States, that cabinet officer must take an oath. (See Section(d)(3) of the Presidential Succession Act.) The law does not specify which oath needs to be taken, who can administer that oath, or if there are limitations upon the location of where that oath can be administered.

If a calamity had occurred during the State of the Union, given Donovan's status as the designated successor, I suggest that he would have been administered the oath to immediately begin his term as Acting President - he was the only person with Presidential-level security, the only person with the nuclear football, and the person designated by the Secret Service as the person who would serve as next-in-line. If he ever takes the oath necessary to serve, Secretary Clinton would be unable to displace his service as Acting President.

Again, I'll try to find a source for this but I doubt I will be successful, if only because this is a unique situation that is only in the news for a few days every year. Nevertheless, if you have any insights, please let me know.

JasonCNJ (talk) 16:04, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

The primary issue with what you have said is if everyone other than Donovan and Clinton were to be killed, Donovan would *not* be acting president. Hillary, although over in the United Kingdom would be sworn in as President of the United States. The fact that the President indicated that he is the designated survivor and as such shouldn't attend the SoTU address *and* the fact that he has access to the Nuclear Football are decisions of the administration, but have *no* effect on who becomes the next president of the United States.

Think about it this way. Replace Hillary Clinton in this scenario with VP Joseph Biden. Biden is in the UK for Queen Elizabeth's Funeral during the State of the Union Address and Donovan is the "designated survivor". Would you say that the Vice President wouldn't become the President of the United States because he is in the United States?(I agree with everything that Wineguy said above)Naraht (talk) 17:54, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Since this is a highly technical talk page, let's just be specific with our terminology. The only people who can become a "President of the United States" is someone elected to the Office of President or someone elected to the Office of Vice President. Any other person will serve simply as "Acting President of the United States."

Naraht, the problem with the example you cited is that your example is not similar to the situation at issue. The mechanism by which Vice President Biden would succeed to the Presidency is Section 1 of the 25th Amendment which states, "In case of [the President's] death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President." Biden becomes President instantly upon the death of his predecessor by operation of the Constitution; there is no need to resort to the Presidential Succession Act of 1947 and Secretary Donovan remains Secretary and not Acting President.

Naraht, please re-read my specific sources of information cited in this talk page. For a Cabinet officer to become Acting President, that Cabinet officer needs to take an oath. I suggest that oath would have been given -- perhaps deliberately, perhaps without much thought -- to the person designated by the Secret Service as the "designated successor." And once Donovan took the oath, he could not be displaced by a higher-ranking Cabinet officer. While it may not sound right or feel right, I still think my analysis is sound. And your examples are not persuasive. JasonCNJ (talk) 22:41, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

While I understand your reasoning, there is one major flaw. You seem to be suggesting that in the event of catastrophe the person in the line of succession who is first (timewise) to take an oath would then be acting president, that the surviving cabinet members all rush to find someone to swear them in, and whoever recites the oath first "wins". Have a look again at Section(d) of the Presidential Succession Act: If, by reason of death, resignation, removal from office, inability, or failure to qualify, there is no President pro tempore to act as President under subsection (b) of this section, then the officer of the United States who is highest on the following list, and who is not under disability to discharge the powers and duties of the office of President shall act as President: Secretary of State, Secretary of the Treasury...; note that it does not say "the officer on the following list who is first to take the oath of office". In the particular circumstances we're discussing, even if Donovan had taken an oath, his claim to the acting presidency would be illegitimate and invalid; unless you claim that Clinton being out of the country is a "disability to discharge the powers and duties of the office".

Your reasoning would come into play in a similar hypothetical situation. Scenario: State of the Union address, everyone in the line of succession in attendance except for the designated survivor, the Secretary of the Interior (#8 in the line). Catastrophe ensues, everyone at the address presumed dead, Sec. of Interior becomes acting president and takes oath. While clearing the rubble, it is discovered that the Secretary of the Treasury (#5 in line) has miraculously survived, but is in a coma, and therefore "under disability". Three weeks later, SecTres has fully recovered, his disability removed. As you correctly point out, he does not then become acting president because of Section(d)(2) of the Presidential Succession Act: An individual acting as President under this subsection shall continue so to do ... the removal of the disability of an individual higher on the list ... shall not terminate his service.

More interesting reading can be found at Oath of office of the President of the United States, particularly under Suspension of the Executive Power. In a nutshell, there is no interval between one President and their successor, but it is "inevitable" the existence of an interval in which the executive power is suspended because the Constitution only provides that the President shall take the oath it prescribes "before he enters on the execution of the office". In other words, the President (or Acting President) is the President/Acting Pres. from the instant the office devolved upon them, whether by election/change of term, resignation or death; they may not, however, exercise the powers of the office until they have taken the oath. Section(d)(3) of the Presidential Succession Act simply states that when a cabinet secretary takes the oath, that also constitutes resignation of their cabinet position. The requirement to take the oath before executing the office is constitutional, specifically Article Two, Clause 8. Wine Guy Talk 02:27, 5 February 2010§ (UTC)

As user Wine Guy explained above, JasonCNJ's assertion here...

I suggest that oath would have been given -- perhaps deliberately, perhaps without much thought -- to the person designated by the Secret Service as the "designated successor."

...incorrectly assumes that the designated survivor would automatically be the next in line. This is not true, as the Presidential Succession Act establishes the line of cabinet members (and others) in proper order. This is not about whether Clinton would "replace" Donovan as Clinton was supposed to be the one to take the oath in the first place, not Donovan.

As such, I am restoring the mentioning of Hillary Clinton, since even though she was not the designated survivor, her example is relevant to explain the fact that the designated survivor is not necessarily the next in line to assuming powers and duties of the presidency. (I don't know why it took this long for this to be pointed out and correctly restored in the first place.) 2603:8000:B600:4000:85B0:FE21:A40F:6898 (talk) 07:22, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

When a Cabinet Officers Succeeds the President He or She becomes President not Acting president. The 25 amendment is very clear on the ways in which someone becomes Acting President Section 3 and 4 and the 25 amendment clearly state that only the Vice President can become the Acting President. Via two ways,when the President summits a written letter to the Speaker of the House and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate that he is unable to discharge the duties of his office then the Vice President Shall be come the Acting President until the President summits a letter to the Speaker of the House and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate contrary. Or When the Vice President and a body such as the principal Officers aka the Cabient to the president or congress summits a letter to the Speaker of the House and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate the the President is unable to discharge his duties. The President may resume exercising the Presidential duties by sending a written declaration to the President pro tempore and the Speaker of the House. Should the Vice President and Cabinet believe the President is still disabled, they may within four days of the President's declaration submit another declaration that the President is incapacitated. The Congress must then assemble within 48 hours if not in session. The Congress then has 21 days to decide the issue. If within the 21 days allotted two-thirds of each House of Congress vote that the President is incapacitated, Section 4 states that the Vice President would "continue" to be Acting President. Should the Congress resolve the issue in favor of the President, or if the Congress makes no decision within the 21 days allotted, then the President would "resume" discharging all of the powers and duties of his office. The use of the words "continue" and "resume" imply that the Vice President remains Acting President while Congress deliberates. However, the President may again submit a written declaration of recovery to the President pro tempore and the Speaker of the House. That declaration could be responded to by the Acting President and the Cabinet in the same way as stated earlier. The allotted 21-day Congressional procedure would start again.

Simmons123456 6:19 7 July 2015 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simmons123456 (talk • contribs) 10:18, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Incorrect, as Presidential Succession Act clearly talks about the acting president and not full succession to presidency as the 25th Amendment provides for the vice president. The 25th Amendment is not construed to prevent Congress from passing legislation to establish additional succession beyond the vice presidency.

The whole point is that Donovan being the "designated survivor" does not mean that Donovan is at the top of the succession list.2603:8000:B600:4000:85B0:FE21:A40F:6898 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 06:58, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Major flawed article

I've noticed that this article is majorly flawed. I hoped to fix this in the coming days.

Simmons123456 6:24 31 July 2015 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simmons123456 (talk • contribs) 10:22, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

No explanation of any kind as to what the flaws are. (The user also never came back to "fix" it.) 2603:8000:B600:4000:85B0:FE21:A40F:6898 (talk) 06:55, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

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Doomsday Survivor

I found this quote on http://uspolitics.about.com/od/antiterrorism/fl/Who-is-the-Designative-Survivor-During-the-State-of-the-Union-Address.htm: "The designated survivor, also jokingly referred to as the “Doomsday Successor" [...]." Would that term be worth mentioning in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.2.59.83 (talk) 22:58, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

I think that was intended as a joke. I don't think about.com is a reliable source, but if it shows up more authoritatively elsewhere, it would be worth adding. TJRC (talk) 19:45, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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TV Show

The TV show Designated Survivor depicts two survivors; one from each political party. I realize it's fiction but is it fiction based on fact or artistic license to further an already unbelievable premise? Just curious! ―Buster7 ☎ 18:20, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Only one on Earth?

My guess is that other governments have designated survivors in certain situations but that we don't know about it. Otherwise, this would be a series of pages on Wikipedia, not a one-off. The lack of information about how the US designated survivor is chosen is troubling to me. If the designated survivor is chosen by persons close to the President, then that kind of sets up a Caligula-Claudius-Praetorian Guard type scenario. Hope we can get some clarification on this page. Geographyinitiative (talk) 05:25, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Sourcing main table

I think the main table listing the names needs a fairly prominent discussion of the source, or explanation of where this table is being compiled from. Right now the table is just presented as is, no explanation of how these names were inferred. For such a core aspect of the entire page, it is not backed up at all. For example, if I wanted to verify any particular row was true, how would I do it? Supernova87a (talk) 02:23, 22 March 2021 (UTC)