Talk:Judaeo-Catalan

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educational[edit]

Ok, I'm not even going to bother to ask... but anyway, the Judeo-Latin article is rather educational. Gringo300 09:19, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Crypto-Jews now?[edit]

Are you sure that there are "many" Crypto-Jewish communities in Spain? Do you have some reference? --Error 00:19, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

yes. yes.

Tomer ^TALK 00:38, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

This article is absolute non-sense:

1.- There are indeed many descendants of Crypto-Jews in Spain and Portugal. But since the abolition of the Santa Inquisicion in 1821, there are no longer reasons to be a Crypto-Jew in Spain (i.e. to practice Judaism in private while in public you practice another religion, usually Catholicism), so you can call these people who live in the 21st Century Jews or descendants of Crypto-Jews, but no longer "Crypto-Jews".

[A note is needed here. "Crypto-Jew" can have many meanings today. In the Sangre de Cristo Mountains, New Mexico, the Catholic community is comprised entirely of Crypto-Jews, Sephardic origin. These people have had their traditions robbed. Often even the community's collective memory is imbalanced, because of the Inquisition. Many people are considered "Crypto-Jew", perhaps wrongly, if they fit the category of having been robbed of identity....

Such Jews are also known in Hebrew as ANUSIM, the singular being ANUSI, "those who were forced". Being a Crypto-Jew does not only mean knowing and fully practicing in secret. Not anymore.]

2.- I suppose that the descendants of Jews expelled from the "Corona de Aragon" in 1492 did keep their version of the Catalan language for a few generations. However, as far as I know, there are no written testimonies of this "Jewish Diaspora Catalan", and it must have died out long ago. Or it may have died out-- there are still pockets of Catalonian Jews in Mexico.

3.- Catalonian Jews use Catalan or Spanish, but never Catalanic: They speak exactly the same language as their gentile neighbours. Of course, Sephardi immigrants may be able to speak Sephardi (or Ladino). --Yerrux 20:16, 14 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

re;1: There are indeed. Your presumption, however, regarding the social status of Jews in Spain, is staggering. With crypto-Jews, we're talking about people who for five centuries have had, as a core part of their identity, hiding the fact that they are Jews. A decree made in 1821 did not remove the social stigma, and, in fact, the last of the anti-Jewish laws were not removed until the reign of Francisco Franco. Just because you cannot imagine a world in which Jews, crypto- or otherwise, don't feel free to live openly as Jews does not mean that such conditions do not exist. Many bnei anusim continue to live as "hidden Jews", preferring to keep their neighbors from knowing that they are actually Jews. Your presumption with respect to the sentiments of crypto-Jews is breathtaking.

re;2: Just because you're unaware of the existence of Judæo-Catalan (קאטאלאנית), or as you say "Jewish Diaspora Catalan" does not negate its existence. Your statement "It must have died out long ago", which is apparently based on your poorly-researched personal opinion, is hardly noteworthy in the annals of scholarly research.

re;3: Your assertion that Catalonian Jews use Catalán or Spanish, but never Catalanic is pretty much a non-sequitur. As an argument against the article, it holds no weight, since no claim is made, anywhere, by anyone, that anyone speaks Qatalanith. As for your assumption that "Sephardi immigrants may be able to speak Sephardi (or Ladino)", I'm flabergast. That statement makes no sense whatsoever, and, in fact, has absolutely no relevance whatsoever, to anything with which this article deals. Tomer ^TALK 06:15, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

Tomer, crypto-Jew is a Jew who publicly practices a non-Jewish religion, while privately believing in Judaism. The best example of this are the jews of Belmonte in Portugal, who till the 20th Century went to Roman Catholic mass, while denying Christ's divinity in private. A Jew who prefers his neighbours not to know about it, is not necessarily a crypto-Jew. I've sent an email to the [1] Jewish Community of Barcelona asking them for information regarding this "Catalanic" language. I haven't found any proof of this language, and you haven't provided any evidence, either. Tell me, according to you is there also a Jewish version of the Basque and Galician languages?--62.6.139.12 15:00, 16 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dear anonymous editor. First, crypto-Jews often not only do not practice Judaism nor believe in it, but they often don't even know they're Jews. For more, go read at [2]. Second, I didn't make up Catalanic as you seem to believe. Most of my information came from [3]. According to me, as you so insidiously word it, no, there have never been Jewish versions of Basque or Gallego...although, according to [4] and other sources, there was a Judæo-Portuguese, into which any Judæo-Gallego may have subsumed. Let me know what you hear from the Jewish community of Barcelona, including how much of the community has been in Barce for more than 100 years. Tomer ^TALK 17:25, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

Definition of Crypto-Judaism[edit]

According to Wikipedia, Crypto-Judaism "is the secret adherence to Judaism while publicly professing to be of another faith." --62.6.139.12 08:17, 17 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting you should rely on a circular argument for support. When I have time, I'll go fix it. Tomer ^TALK 22:56, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

Addendum: I think there's room to differentiate between Crypto-Jew and Crypto-Judaism, just as there is to differentiate between Jew and Judaism. Tomer ^TALK 23:50, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

Are you sure that "crypto-Jew" is commonly used for descendants of Jews who don't even know it? I thought it was only used for practitioners of (limited) Judaism. --Error 01:29, 22 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

AFAIK, the difference between Jew and Judaism is that a Jew could not follow Judaism. By that rule, the descendant of force-converted Jews who does not practice the religion would be an ethnic Jew. There would be no need to call them "crypto-Jews". --Error 01:29, 22 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

<<...people who practice crypto-Judaism are referred to as "crypto-Jews">> (copied and pasted from Crypto-Judaism). Tomer, did you know that the links you offer in this discussion (namely [2], [3] and [4]) are dead? .--195.93.21.99 17:45, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Catalan Anusim today?[edit]

Today, except for the use of a number of Hebrew loanwords, there is little to distinguish the speech of the Catalonian Bnei Anusim and their fellow Jews, from the Catalan or Spanish spoken by their non-Jewish neighbors.

Are there hidden Jews in Catalonia now? Fear and shadows talks about descendants of Jews who kept some traditions and have returned to Judaism, but while they reside in Barcelona, their ancestors recently immigrated from the Balearics, and from what I know the Majorcan Xuetas, because of the great pressure, left Judaism even in its hidden forms. Shouldn't it be Balearic Bnei Anusim, supposing they really exist? --Error 01:29, 22 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Today, except for the use of a number of Hebrew loanwords, there is little to distinguish the speech of the Catalonian Bnei Anusim and their fellow Jews, from the Catalan or Spanish spoken by their non-Jewish neighbors." Does anyone know if this alleged "Judeo-Catalanic" language so different from Catalan as to be considered an independent language? Are there any testimonies of this language, apart from the dodgy links offered by Tomer? There do exist 18th Century testimonies of Judeo-Portuguese in Leghorn/Livorno and Amsterdam, but I've never heard of Judeo-Catalan. --195.93.21.42 11:42, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To my knowledge there is no evidence that a distinct Jewish variety of Catalan has ever existed. Judeo-Catalan is not mentioned in any of the works on Catalan that I have read nor is any evidence of it cited in any scholarly work on Jewish languages with which I am familiar. The Catalan linguists I know are not aware of any such distinct variety. I once asked the great Jewish linguist Joshua Fishman about this, and he responded that he knew of no evidence for Judeo-Catalan. If there was such a language, it appears to be unattested. That is not to say that there are no records of Catalan written by Jews. I myself have read a bit of Catalan written by Jews around Girona, but there was nothing to distinguish it from the Catalan of gentiles. I should add that this isn't due to any lack of scholarly interest in the history of Jews in Catalonia. I own a two-volume collection of papers on the history of the Jews of Girona. There is no mention of a distinct Jewish variety of Catalan. In sum, Judeo-Catalan is a phantom. If anyone can provide evidence of the existence of Judeo-Catalan I would be most interest. By "evidence" I mean citation of characteristics distinguishing it from the Catalan of gentiles with quotation of supporting examples from actual texts.Bill 00:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You´re absolutely right. This whole idea of "Catalanic" is a fabrication. The only reference is a web page that hardly even mentions this imaginary language. Until any reference is given the whole article should be put undee a big question mark Kurt Dec 2006^{[citation needed]}

Information additional[edit]

from http://www.grec.net/cgibin/heccl2.pgm?NDCHEC=0118319

judeocatalà

Antic dialecte del català propi dels jueus catalans. Cal distingir-hi el que corresponia a la llengua parlada i el literari de les traduccions calcades de l'hebreu. Després del 1492 es perd tot rastre del català parlat i escrit pels jueus catalans, i els escassos documents i notícies anteriors no permeten d'establir-ne cap tipologia segura, si no és l'abundor de mots i d'expressions hebreus. Sembla que a la Catalunya Vella es caracteritzava també per un cert deix d'arcaismes. A Mallorca, i potser al País Valencià, fins a la fi del s XV es mantingué vigent, entre els jueus, al costat del català, l'àrab vulgar, amb probables interferències. Les característiques sintàctiques, morfològiques i lèxiques del català resultant de traduccions calcades de l'hebreu fetes per jueus i conversos catalans (dos siddurim, un saltiri, llibres d'astrologia, etc) són les mateixes que es troben a tot el domini dels parlars romànics.

from http://la_cantina_dels_encants.lamevaweb.info/post/61/36132

Parles catalànic?

— Publicat per pia almoina @ 17:26

Els jueus ens van deixar moltes coses; fins i tot una llengua, ara sembla que perduda...

Es tracta del judeocatalà, també anomenat "catalànic" o "qatalanit" (קאטאלנית, en hebreu); és una llengua romànica jueva que es parlava principalment a les comunitats del nord-est de la Península Ibèrica, sobretotal al que avui són Catalunya i les illes Balears.

Els sefardites eren els descendents dels jueus que van viure a la Península Ibèrica fins el 1492, quan van ser expulsats pels reis Catòlics espanyols, Isabel i Ferran. Els sefardites van conviure pacíficament amb les comunitats musulmanes i cristianes existents durant molt temps i la seva cultura va prosperar més que a cap altre lloc. D'aquí en sorgí una llengua pròpia, coneguda com "espanyol sefardita", "judezmo", "haquitia", "judeoespanyol" o "ladí [es]".

El catalànic, va ser la llengua del rabí Mossé ben Nahmàn, Ramban o Nahmànides que va ser metge, místic i cabalista i, en resum, un dels grans pensadors jueus medievals. Conegut pels gentils com Bonatruç ça Porta va nèixer a Girona a les darreríes del segle XII i va morir a Palestina a la segona meitat del segle XIII (convé visitar el call jueu de Girona, el Patronat "Call de Girona", el seu Museu d'Història dels jueus i l'Institut d'Estudis Nahmànides). El catalànic també era la llengua dels mallorquins Abraham i Jafudà Cresques, pare i fill, que a més de ser rellotgers i bruixollers van esdevenir un dels geògrafs i dibuixants de cartes nàutiques medievals més importants creant el conegut mundialment com l'Atles Català al segle XIV. Se sap que el catalànic es va continuar parlant en comunitats molts reduides sobretot a Grècia i a Veneçuela també.

Gairebé sempre es parla dels jueus de territori català com jueus espanyols, quan aquests no ho eren ni s'hi sentien. No oblidem que els jueus parlaven de Sefarad referint-se la península sencera, des dels Països Catalans fins Portugal, passant per Castella i els regnes musulmans com el de Granada. La malaurada i gran desconeixença que tenim del catalànic davant el ladí o judeoespanyol és molt accentuada. Sembla que encara resten comunitats de parlants de ladí a Turquía, Grècia o Israel, pero mai es sent res dels parlants del judeocatalà ni de la cultura catalanojueva.

Al fòrum de racocatalà hi ha un interessant fil sobre el catalànic. Allà es fa menció que el catalànic també es va parlar a Atenes en el sí de la comunitat judeocatalana grega durant molts i molts anys; però per desgràcia, sobretot amb l'holocaust nazi, hi va haver l'extermini de molts jueus, cosa que va reduir el nombre de judeocatalans fins que van acabar desapareixen. Aquí també indiquen que el catalànic es va extingir farà cosa de cinquanta anys (o una mica més) amb la mort de la seva última parlant, una dona d'ascendència judeo-catalana que vivia a Veneçuela.

També en aquest fòrum s'indica que el catalànic es va acabar probablement a finals del SXV. quan es va fusionar amb el judeocastellà i el judeoaragonès, fins a formar el ladino. El ladí, en essència és castellà antic, amb moltes paraules hebrees, turques i gregues, però també catalanes, sembla procedents del catalànic.

Un tema, doncs, interessant, poc estudiat i poc explicat, amb molts interrogants i incògnites que, malgrat tot, va deixar una forta emprempta a la cultura hebrea i catalana i en la que caldria profundir més.

The 2nd article contains a nice pic as well... Tom e r ^talk 23:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The first article is encyclopedic, but it says it is not a language, but a dialect; just Catalan with a few hebrew words or constructions. The second one is just an anonymous post in a forum, whose only source is a post in another forum talking about THIS ARTICLE in wikipedia!!!!! How can you give a reference in an article that references the very same article! --81.39.168.230 15:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Article for deletion?[edit]

Although this article is five years old, it has been unverifiable since the first day: there's no evidence that Catalan Jews spoke a language that was different from their gentile neighbours', and there's no evidence that they kept the language in the Diaspora. After five years waiting for some evidence, why not delete it until someone finally comes up with some evidence (which might still never come, simply because the separate Catalanic language most probably never existed)?

--81.135.81.85 (talk) 14:51, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]