Talk:First lady

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Criticisms[edit]

Shouldn't there be a section on criticism of the title and role - like it makes sexist assumptions, or that a person shouldn't have, or be expected to have, a title or to fulfill certain functions on the basis of his/her spouses job ?

Two questions:

  1. What does (the first part of) this sentence mean: "Although the words 'first lady' were previously used in combination to refer to women..."? Isn't that obvious? Has it ever been used "in combination" to refer to men?
  2. The article doesn't explain the etymology of the title. Why "first"? Was it taken from "prima donna"? If so, how are the pseudo-official "duties" of the First Lady "prime roles" in, say, the USA? Especially since it is not an elected position; if you can even call it a "position".

I find the title a bit of a misnomer and am opposed to its use at all. But that's just me. --Thorwald 17:42, 21 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Thorwald. I will try to answer your two questions:
1. I think the sentence could be phrased better. What the sentence is trying to say is that if you do an exhaustive search of literature, you can find the words "first lady" together before those words were used as a phrase in the United States. However, it was in the United States that the words were first used as a phrase to refer to the wife or hostess of the President. Here is an example, from the Memoirs of Marie Antoinette, of these words used together:
Madame de Misery, Baronne de Biache, the Queen’s first lady of the chamber, to whom I was made reversioner, was a daughter of M. le Comte de Chemant, and her grandmother was a Montmorency.
2. The etymology of the title is explained more at First_Lady_of_the_United_States. The precise origins are fuzzy, as the phrase emerged from popular culture (and was not "created" by the government. I suggest reading First_Lady_of_the_United_States to see if that helps.
As this article refers to the use of "First Lady" everywhere, and not just in the United States, I'm afraid I can't judge if it should rightly be called a "position". - O^O 01:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
First Lady is a term used in the United States to describe the wife of an elected male head of state.

This sentence does not encompass the other countries where the terms "First Lady" and "First Gentleman" are used in an identical context. The Philippines, for example, also makes use of these terms to refer to the spouse of the President. Micasta (talk) 14:08, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As a result, low-profile first ladies remain common in post-Soviet countries, due to the leaders of those countries having grown up during the Soviet era What does low-class lady mean, what is it all about? Well, and so in the USSR, the same Nina Petrovna Kukharchuk-Khrushcheva or Brezhnev's wife Viktoria Petrovna Brezhneva (nee Denisova) often showed their wives of external leaders 37.54.230.242 (talk) 21:22, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Removed[edit]

I have removed the following

In constitutional monarchies, since the queen fills some of the roles of a first lady, the term Second Lady may be used for the Prime Minister's wife.

It is complete cobblers. Firstly the line mixes up queens consort and queens regnant. Seconly there is no such thing as a Second Lady in that context. Where prime ministers' wives are called anything, it is usually first lady and that is purely a tabloid press name, never used officially. FearÉIREANN 01:40, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Similarly, the wife of the German chancellor is sometimes referred to in the media (tongue in cheek) as "first lady". Should this kind of press adoption of official titles be discussed in the article?—Eloquence

Googling around, I have found that Second Lady has been occasionally used for the Vice President's wife. But the use for PM's wives seems to be jocular. -- Error 02:01, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)

And notice that a woman, Angela Merkel, became Germany chancellor. Carlm0404 (talk) 03:59, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hillary Clinton[edit]

Is it not an arguable opinion to consider Hillary Clinton a famous first lady? Was she any more famous than some of the other first ladies of history? I think that she isn't and that her name should be removed. MattSal 21:41, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)

After all she's the only US first lady with a realistic chance to become president herself. And one of very few first ladies to become senators. I think this makes her quite significant. I'd even state that in Europe she is the only US first lady most people have ever heard of, exept perhaps for Jackie Kennedy.
-- Imladros 02:54, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of wether you like her or not, she should be in here. She has been a huge part of history in both good and bad ways; she is the first first lady to hold public office in the US, was the first one to be appointed to official positions to create policy, as well as the first to be suppeanaed by a grand jury, and also the 2nd to be an official U.S. Rep. to the U.N. (after Eleanor Roosevelt). She is one of the most powerful women in the world, and she could be the most powerful person in the world come Jan. 20, 2009. I couldn't believe it, but she also appeared in world history books for her work on health care and diplomatic missions, ect. During her tenure she represented the U.S. in about 100 countries abroad by herself. If anyone needs to be taken away, its Babs and Laurie Bush - What Did They Ever Do? Keep Betty Ford, Nancy Reagan, Eleanor Roosevelt, Rosalynn Carter, Jackie BKO - they were incredible. But for God's sake, post some from some other nations!

Term inappropriate outside a US context[edit]

"First Lady" is a United States term which is inappropriate when applied to other countries, whatever role the spouses of married Heads of State and/or Government may or may not exercise in the public life of those countries. The term should be reserved for use in the United States context only. -- Picapica 13:59, 18 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"First Lady" is an unofficial term and as this is being used in Germany as well, so it's not all US. -- Imladros 02:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The term is used quite commonly in Anglophone republics like South Africa, taking their cue from the oldest Anglophone republic (the US). Since South Africa is a presidential parliamentary democracy, where the political system is very close to the British one but with the person with de facto role of prime minister titled 'president' and officially head of state too, the wife of the president is known as the first lady in exactly the same way. The term may originally be American, but there is no reason why it can't be extended.

In its present sense (and I note the next section), the term 'first lady' is originally and primarily found in and about the United States. Its occasional application elsewhere is a reflection of that, and while it may be becoming established (eg. the above reference to South Africa, apparently), this article should not try to shoehorn the term on to the rest of the world.
I have removed the 'Outside the United States' section as it was peppered with calls for references, and was built around the entirely erroneous statement: In countries where the head of state and the head of government are different persons, it is standard practice to refer to the spouse of the head of state as First Gentleman or Lady.
This article and associated ones still need to be refocused to emphasise the continuing US basis of this term.
Earthlyreason (talk) 02:55, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The term is inherently American, and inappropriate elsewhere (actually it is not appropriate in the USA either, but that is another matter). Journalists, aping the USA, may use the term elsewhere, but nowhere that I am aware of is there any official title or even local custom like that of the USA. The article should emphasise that this is an American term, not an international one.101.98.74.13 (talk) 18:20, 21 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article needs some serious work to make it accurate[edit]

This article is not factual and it needs to be rewritten.

The term "First Lady" is a British term that has been incorrectly applied in the United States of America. Simply put, when the king is unmarried, ie no princess consort, and his mother (Queen Dowager) is deceased, the wife of his eldest living brother (Duchess) becomes First Lady of the Realm because she is the first lady in the processessional line. By being the First Lady of the realm, she enjoys the perquisits that come with the job, but she doesn't take the title of First Lady because she has her own and doesn't need any others. Now I am unsure if there are no wives of the Dukes if the eldest Pricess (sister of the King) would take the position. Of course if the King marries, then his wife joins him in the processional, and therefore there is no First Lady of the Realm.

While the earliest uses in the United States seem to date to Dolly Madison, the term wasn't betsowed upon the Presidents wife until Rutheford B. Hayes started calling his wife Lucy Webb Hayes "First Lady". By the way, the wife of the President is officially (in current respects, according to US State Department protocol) Mrs. George W. Bush - Laura Bush is NEVER officially introduced at State Functions as the First Lady because it is not a Government title, and she receives no salary.

In any event, this article is deserves to have correct information by someone who who is better versed in the matter then the one who wrote it. Stu 02:44, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The speculation that the origins of "first lady" (as a title) are British or French is something that directly conflicts with all the research I've seen on this. Can someone provide references for use of "first lady" as a title outside the United States before 1849? -O^O
O^O - What sources have you checked in all your research? I'm interested in finding out where you have looked. BTW, I believe that the First Lady articles document the use of the term in both Great Britian (most notably Burke's Peerage) and France Stu 02:55, 12 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Is there such a term as First Gentleman?[edit]

I did some research online (which I understand is not the last word for verifiability) to try and find if the term First gentleman is something that is in common usage since User:159753 added it in today stating that the term is isued in Finland and in Great Britian. So far I've just run A9, Yahoo! and Google and am not finding anything regarding Finland. Has anyone else everheard of this being used as a common moniker? Stu 20:36, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The term "First Gentleman" is a recent American invention, coming from the late 1990's and early 2000 to give a PC term for the husband of a female president. The origin is from the term that what Bill Clinton will be called, if Hillary Clinton becomes Madame President of the USA, plus also it comes from the ABC programme Commander-in-Chief where President Mackenzie Allen's husband Rod Calloway is called the First Gentleman.
Dr. Pentti Arajärvi is usually considered to be the just Madam President Halonen's spouse. [1]
Please note that when someone writes First Gentleman in the search box thay come to this page. 159753 15:59, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Em, the term is First Gentleman is used for the husbands of the Governors of Arizona, Louisiana and Michigan. The Governors of the Utah and Kansas used the terms First Lad and First Dude. One thing the term First Gentleman, is used for the title of Jose Miguel Arroyo the husband of the Philippine president, Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo.
See: Talk:First_Lady_of_the_United_States#Hypothetical_female_pres. 159753 17:54, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Then if that is the case it needs to be cited with information that is verifiable. But the examples given of Finland and Ireland apparently didn't hold water. However the issue really seems to be the inference that it is a foregone conclusion that this will be the term used in the instance of a female President's husband AND whether the term should be in this article or its own. Stu 02:49, 12 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

According to Fins, Dr. Pentti Arajärvi is officially referred to as Dr. Pentti Arajärvi, not the First Gentleman (a term that I find higly affected). We've already established that Dennis Thatcher was not the First Gentleman of Great Britian. My point is, that if this is an article on "First Lady" why at all does it delve into "First Gentleman" at all? Afterall, if it merits inclusion in First Lady, wouldn't the logical progression be to Wikilink it to an article of its merit. If it can't stand under its own merit, does it deserve a mention in this article? Stu 00:44, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Quick response to your "does it deserve a mention" question. If I understand you correctly, you are proposing that either "first gentleman" have an article of its own, or it be dropped from this article. IMHO, it is a fairly accepted part of the wikipedia way that when a topic deserves a paragraph or so, but not an entire article, it is covered in the most closely related article. Perhaps first gentleman should simply redirect to here? Notwithstanding the above, usage of the terms "first lady" and "first gentleman" outside America aren't something I'm particularly going to get involved in editing over (other than the etymology, of course). -O^O


Neither Nick Robinson nor Martin McAleese, the husbands of the last or current presidents of Ireland, were ever called First Gentleman. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 00:51, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I just added some citations for First Gentleman. I don't think the subject is large enough to merit its own article, at least not at the present time. IronDuke 06:08, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't the title be First Lord, as opposed to First Gentleman, going by the meanings of the terms and the history and reasons for the title being First Lady?
If Hillary Clinton runs for President and wins, will Bill be the first gentleman?--Chili14 17:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If it happens in 2008, we'll find out officially in 2009. Otherwise, it's just speculation. Currently, there is no male equivalent for First Lady in the United States since there has been no husband of the President yet. B.Wind 23:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As I understand the issue, even if Hilary Clinton were to be eleceted, we still would not have an answer to the question of what to call the husband of a female President. Since Bill Clinton is a former President of the US himself, his title would always be Mr. President. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.143.144.129 (talk) 19:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Revised definition[edit]

It seems to have escaped notice that O^O expanded the definition on January 19, 2006 of "first lady" from female spouse of a head of state to that of an elected head of government. This means that a number of previously "failed" first ladies can now be reinstated eg Lisbet Palme, Cherie Booth, Norma Major and Audrey Callaghan. Here goes!Phase1 23:52, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Are the examples of the term being used for spouse of head of government that's not head of state? The term is an extension of the concept of First Citizen, sometimes used as the title of head of state of a republic. It's never used in monarchies like the UK or Canada. Peter Grey 02:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Canada[edit]

The only time I ever hear the spouse of the Canadian Prime Minister referred to as the "First Lady" is in American news reports. Google turns up few domestic instances of its use. Fishhead64 22:19, 14 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In Canada, we already have a queen. We don't need to invent one every four years as do some 'other' countries. Indeed, attempting to find a role model that the peasants and bourgois can admire other than a God-given regent is an unfortunate yet necessary function for a country that forsook its imperial and monarchical heritage through sedition in 1776. First Lady, First Family, Fisrt Daughter, First Gardener, First Puppy, First Poopy, - good gracious when will it be the LAST? God Save Us All (And The Queen too!)

"recognized" function?[edit]

The article says:

In many countries (such as the United Kingdom), the Prime Minister's spouse has no recognized function, duties or title, and the term is not used. In Commonwealth Realms the closest equivalent is the Viceregal Consort, the husband or wife of the Governor General (who can in turn be male or female).

That could lead the reader to suppose that in the United States the First Lady has "recognized" functions or duties. What does that mean? Certainly the president's wife does not have official functions or duties, just as the British prime minister's wife does not. Her position as hostess of the White House is unofficial, based on custom and not on law. No such customs pertain to the British prime minister's wife, not because of any less official status (she has none and the president's wife has none), but because such ceremonial functions are already fulfilled by the monarch. Michael Hardy 02:07, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Great Britain[edit]

I removed the Great Britain section, for two reasons.

  • Great Britain hasn't existed as a country since 1801, and none of the examples predate this
  • The term First Lady has never been used in the UK, except possibly as satire. Indeed, the only time I have ever seen it used myself was here, where the point was made that the UK doesn't have one!

It was immediately reverted. I'm going to remove it again, if you object then could we please discuss it here rather than getting into a revert war.

Furthermore, the cleanup tag was removed at the same time. I don't see how anyone could object to the article in it's current state being called a list, so I'm adding that back in too. Modest Genius talk 21:43, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It could be argued that the use of satire (Of Cherie Blair if I remember rightly) is relevant to this article. Cryomaniac (talk) 21:13, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clean up[edit]

Hi everyone. I added and removed some major things to this article, such as the red-linked First Ladies, who do not belong on a list of "Notable First Ladies" if there isn't even an article for them. I also added some names, and deleted some. I fixed up the listy prose, and rewrote it in paragraph form. I got rid of the parenthetical statments, which are harder to read. I found the real "root" of the title First Lady, added it, and cited it. I'd say that I've done a lot of good in helping this article. Feel free to add, or slightly change. Happyme22 19:09, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal[edit]

I would like to make a proposal, but before I add it to the article, I want to make sure I have consensus (it is a serious edit). I would like to slim down the list of first ladies to the ones that actually used the title, i.e. the American ones, perhaps others, and provide a description of those and scratch the others. There is, after all, a list of first ladies article where similar information is given. Again, anyone may state their opinion here, as I don't want to start an edit war because there is no consensus. Thanks, Arknascar44 15:49, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Spotlight[edit]

Notable First Ladies[edit]

The section was removed, If we can find some sources we can incorporate some as examples. But the idea of "notable" is very biased, how do we know which ones are notable?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Eagle 101 (talk • contribs)

Possible sources[edit]

Duties and ceremony[edit]

While the traditions and expectations of a first lady vary by country and have changed significantly over time, they typically include responsibilities such as hosting receptions at the executive residence, advocating on behalf of public causes and charities, and running state functions and other duties. {{fact}}

  • Kind of a no brainer, first ladies in various cultures will obviously have different duties. If we can find a secondary source for this, go ahead and re-add. By secondary source I mean something that compares the various culture's first ladies. Not us finding primary sources and drawing this conclusion. —— Eagle101Need help? 19:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Intro[edit]

Though the term first lady is rarely an official office of the state,{{fact}} several First Ladies have exerted considerable power and influence over the course of government despite the lack of a legal mandate, such as Edith Wilson, wife of Woodrow Wilson, and Henriette Conté, the first wife of Lansana Conté. Others such as Hillary Clinton, Imelda Marcos or Sonia Gandhi have gone on to win political power in their own right, while others, such as Argentine Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, held office prior to becoming First Lady. Some others, including Isabel Peron and Janet Jagan, have become president themselves.{{fact}}

  • Please note that we were not able to find sources for this. —— Eagle101Need help? 21:39, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First Gentleman[edit]

First Gentleman should be merged into this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.62.78 (talk) 23:13, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The day the United States OF America elects a woman like Hillary Clinton to be its leader is the day you'll all have to refer to Bubba Bill as a "gentleman," as ludicrous and laughable a prospect as there ever was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.59.9.52 (talk) 20:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That comment has no place here. Your comment is the reason that the Wikipedia "user-edit" system is fundamentally flawed, and it's the reason that people will soon look at this "free encyclopedia" as being "worth every penny they paid for it" unless we see some serious changes. By the way, Hillary Clinton was not even mentioned in the comment you replied to, you complete moron. Take it to a political forum, for God's sakes. I believe the first commenter is correct, I second the idea for merging "First Gentleman" here. 72.213.129.138 (talk) 04:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another Photo, PLEASE[edit]

It has occurred to me that this article refers to ALL spouses of heads of state, not just the United States. There is actually a separate article for First Lady of the United States. Yet, both of the two photos we have here feature Laura Bush. This seems a bit biased and imbalanced. Also realizing that Laura Bush may be the current First Lady of the United States, but in general she is not that exciting compared to – say – Betty Ford, Eleanor Roosevelt, Nancy Reagan, or Hillary Clinton from a historic perspective. Would it be possible to remove one of the Laura Bush photos, and possibly add photos of other current and historic first ladies throughout the world? 72.213.129.138 (talk) 05:15, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. The term does not refer to 'ALL spouses of heads of state'. It is originally and primarily used in and about the United States. It is seen in the media of other countries, in reference to American politics or lightly/humorously/satirically about other countries' officials' spouses, and in some places may be becoming adopted locally. But is very far from in general usage.
Earthlyreason (talk) 03:09, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Earthlyreason - I'm pretty sure the IP is right. Look at the link he gave - we already have an article about First Lady of the U.S. It used to be that this article had everyone - I don't know how it got changed--danielfolsom 03:56, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In other words, if this article is only about the First Lady of the U.S., it needs to be fixed.--danielfolsom 03:59, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Generalisation of Term[edit]

When the president's wife is non-existent or unwilling, the customary duties may be fulfilled by the president's daughter, niece, etc. This in itself is a bit odd, since one would assume that if the first lady died in a car accident her duties would be passed to the SECOND lady... the wife of the vice president (though responsibility for White House hospitality would be inappropriate). However, though the duties of facilitating official head of state visits or whatever it is national first ladies do obviously don't apply, what happens if the governor of a state has no wife but does have a daughter/niece...? I've checked and it seems that generally they are passed over and there is no first lady, but is it nonetheless possible in semi-official etiquette to refer to the closest female relative as the first lady of the state in such circumstances (for reasons of popularity or whatever)? It can't be great for a state to be first-lady-less. Either way, could this be clarified in the article?

US First Lady is not as informal as it says here, sort of[edit]

Although the US First Lady receives no salary, she does have an office and a budget. The size of the office and budget are at the pleasure of the president, but the same can be said for most offices in the White House. There is no permanent organization chart, and the budget for the white house (about $191 million)link, as approved by congress, is remarkably flexible and not subject to the same kind of specificity that most of the rest of the budget has. Informally and Customarily, there are power structures, and most everyone reports to the Chief of Staff, but I can't imagine that anyone would say that the First Lady does. Even the names of most offices in the White House (not OMB, for instance) can be changed at the order of the President, so I'm sure that any "First Dude" would work out of a differently named office but it's never come up, and it's hard to guess what a future president will do (ask Bill Clinton). I'm not sure how much of these goes in this article vs. the FLOTUS page, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GumbyProf (talk • contribs) 12:15, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Globalize/Merge[edit]

Whereas this article is about a global subject, and given that there is already an article that is on the U.S. First Lady (and is appropriately titled First Lady of the United States, I'm proposing that we globalize this article and we move content that is only appropriate for a specific article on the U.S. First Lady to First Lady of the United States (we would be merging parts of this article TO the First Lady of the U.S. article).--danielfolsom 19:57, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. This article is about the First Lady notion as a whole, and if it originated in the U.S. and if the U.S. First Lady is the most well-known instance, then it's okay for this article's discussion to use that as a starting point. Of course, all the other uses of First Lady need to be discussed and linked to from here as well. Wasted Time R (talk) 20:39, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What? There really isn't a starting point to this article - it's currently ONLY about the U.S. First Lady (and, there is already an article that serves that purpose); you are right in saying that "this article is about the First Lady notion as a whole" - and thus the article should be about the First Lady notion as a whole - not just the U.S. aspect.--danielfolsom 03:02, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely, add non-U.S. material to this article. I'm just saying, you don't need to remove much of the U.S. material that's already here; I think it's appropriate as part of an overall world view on the First Lady notion. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:46, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying start from scratch, however as this article was written with the intent to be purely from the U.S. perspective, I think there is information that would be too trivial for an overall article (the list of first gentlemen, for example), but would work better in the actual U.S. article--danielfolsom 02:11, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The First Lady of the United States article is solely about the White House position. It doesn't deal with spouses of governors, mayors, or any other position. Wasted Time R (talk) 02:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
True - I got the terms mixed up there; however I nonetheless believe to list every first gentlemen will be a little over-the-top after the globalization--danielfolsom 03:09, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple-first-Lady[edit]

The article claimed that Graça Machel was the only woman in history to be First Lady of two different nations. But since every wife of a French president is ex-officio also the wife of the Co-Prince of Andorra, I don't think this is true. --128.112.109.210 (talk) 03:41, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

US first gentlemen list[edit]

I can't see why there needs to be a specific list of current US first gentlemen within the article -- it's excessive detail that's likely to become outdated in any case. I'll go ahead and delete it in a few days if no-one argues otherwise. Gusworld (talk) 16:20, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unexplained redirect[edit]

First Dude redirects to this article, but there's nothing in the article about that term... AnonMoos (talk) 14:27, 27 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I added a sentence at the end of the Origins paragraph after the sentence that a male spouse of an American head of state might be called a "first gentleman." I wrote that possible alternatives could possibly be "first dude" as Sarah Palin called her husband, or maybe even "First Lad" or "First Mate" as Bill Clinton joked. I'm not sure they really belong here since they seem to be said informally. I guess there could be a alternatives subsection? However, since First Dude does in fact re-direct here, i thought it deserved a mention. As a sidenote, I was originally looking for First Dude the racehorse which just came in second at the Preakness stakes today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marshalvinny (talk • contribs) 22:41, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Jafeluv (talk) 12:07, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

First Lady → First Spouse — Alternatively, First Ladies and Gentleman as used in First Ladies and Gentlemen of Oklahoma, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Wisconsin and First Ladies and Gentlemen of Minnesota. Given that large number of countries have now had female heads of state, it seems inevitable that we'll have to move this article soon or later. The have already been a significant number of female presidents around the world, such as:

Note: this article is about the general concept of First Ladies. I don't think we should move First Lady of the United States, for example, until there has been a female president... Likewise, I don't think we should move List of First Ladies of Brazil until around next week. The Celestial City (talk) 19:15, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong oppose. In the United States, where it originated, the term "First Lady" refers not (exclusively) to the spouse of the president, but to the White House hostess. In most cases that's the president's spouse but obviously not if the president is unmarried, or if the president's spouse is not a woman. Powers T 11:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This article is not exclusively about the US First Lady; while in the US it may traditionally refer to the White House hostess, this is not case around the world, where the term has evolved to simply denote the president's spouse. See First Spouse of the Philippines, for example. In any case, there is no reason why Bill Clinton, for example, should his wife become president, shouldn't be titled as White House host. The Celestial City (talk) 21:48, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The unique case of the United States is covered with First Lady of the United States. Since the article covers a world view this seems like a rather appropriate move. As already noted, they aren't only woman anymore. This is an overdue move.--Labattblueboy (talk) 20:25, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for several reasons. The article is about the term itself, not a list of First Spouses. The primary usage English is "First Lady" and the article, as it currently stands, is almost exclusively about First Ladies including sections such as Origin and Apolitical uses where calling the article "First Spouse" would be inaccurate. Also, "First Spouse" is not even referenced as a term in the article and is not used officially in any country. — AjaxSmack 00:07, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support and rewrite article to be gender-neutral (though be sure to note the traditional the use of 'First Lady' too). This article is not about a term, but a concept, and this concept has broadened in recent years. —what a crazy random happenstance 01:22, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • This may be true but the article should be edited first, then the title can be changed, i.e., the page can be moved. — AjaxSmack 03:46, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. To me, the term 'First Lady' is a typical American construct paying close attention to not being overly formal while being appropriately respectful. After all, we address the president as Mr. President. The word 'spouse' is too clinical, as well as being too generic.
As for the male equivalent, to be typically American, the term should be something like 'First Man' or 'First Gent'. The word 'gentleman' is pretentious in the same sense that 'madam' or 'madame' would be for a woman.
I think we should remain cognizant that the very use of the term will also shape how people think of that term. I know it seems odd at first, but I think the term 'First Man' is best. It is short. It contains the idea that he should be a 'mensch'. The idea that man is symmetrical with woman and that gentleman is symmetrical with lady is a bit too mechanical. It is more an artifact of how they are used than due to something intrinsic to how we think of the words. — Loyalgadfly (talk) 13:00, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

picture[edit]

there are only 31 one first ladies in the picture including laura bush... though it says laura bush and an additional 36 first ladies. false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.95.49.231 (talk) 20:08, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Non-American example of apolitical use[edit]

Since the 'Apolitical uses' section currently cites no examples from outside the USA: Canadian professional wrestler Genny Goulet, stage name LuFisto, is advertised as the 'First Lady of Hardcore'. Dunno how appropriate it is but I supposed it was worth mentioning here at least. Sordyne (talk) 20:20, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not relevant at all. --Thnidu (talk) 00:40, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Neutralize[edit]

I tried to neutralize the article. I didnt know there had been all this activity already, but part of my edits include putting the categories in a way that prevents hegemony. This way other people can add specific examples or names or deviations by country. Thanks--MsTingaK (talk) 05:38, 14 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

REdirect and information on first Gentleman[edit]

It seems like this topic is a little chaotic - there is a redirect when you search first gentleman to this article but there is not mention of first gentleman here anymore -- there used to be info on the first bloke of Australia, this is very sexist and reflects a paucity in gender neutral perspective --> either make the article gender neutral or separate the articles!--MsTingaK (talk) 00:21, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you -- "First Gentleman" should probably merit a section in this article or its own article, as it currently redirects to "First Lady" with very little actual information about First Gentlemen. The Giant Purple Platypus (talk) 08:36, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not just American[edit]

Are we seriously saying that the lead must say "American" until there is a source found that specifically explains the term "First Lady"'s use in other countries? Despite the article itself listing its use in other countries, and 100s of source that can be listed that show its use in other countries?

Because that's ridiculous. If there is a lack of a cite then mark it as requiring one. But pretending it doesn't exist in other countries, simply because a source can't be found discussing its origins is pedantry that flies in the face of the facts and the rest of the article.

Other first ladies;

I could go on, and on... --Escape Orbit (Talk) 22:01, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Wow some WP:BADFAITH there. Have you actually read the intro? Try reading it as a whole there -you see it is accurate.
*It is the name used for the American President's wife.-yes. *The American Media use it for the wife of basically every other world leader, regardless of whether it is used in that country or not.-yes *And some other other countries use a title that can be translated as first lady.-yes.

All of which is correct. There is no "pretending" it is not used anywhere else. It states explicitly - "Some other countries have a title, formal or informal, that is or can be translated as first lady". Don't forget the rest of the English speaking world -Australia, Britain, Canada, Ireland & New Zealand - do not use the term.

So yes, it is accurate...

Anyway. I have added in some of the examples you state, but some of your sources are not up to scratch. As "first lady" has become almost a dictionary term within American English, English language versions of websites sometimes use it as such; and google translator often translates "first lady" when the constitutive words of whatever official title are neither "first" nor "lady". -so care needs to be taken to ensure the correct native term is used, and that is translation is correct.
For example I have just added the Poland to the article - You gave the English language version of the website for the Polish president, when the [Polish Language] one is the one that we really need in order to confirm what name is actually used. In this example it is Pierwsza Dama - which correctly translates as first lady.

So by all means, if you have any weblinks to verify uses in other countries, I'd be happy to add them. But be careful that the use is not just an Americanism or a corruption in translation.

Best--Rushton2010 (talk) 01:17, 2 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So your position is that all these countries don't really use "First Lady", they use their own words which can be translated as "First Lady"? And the official websites of these countries are wrong in some way, and research is needed to determine whether the translation is correct? I find that rather patronising. The official language of Trinidad and Tobago, Nigeria, Uganda and Zambia is English, so when they say "First Lady" as a title they mean exactly that. All these countries use the term on their websites exactly as they intend it to be used, whether in translation or not, and it is not the responsibility of Wikipedia editors to decide whether they are using it "correctly" or not. These sources are reliable and evidence of the term not being solely American. So it is misleading for the lead, as a summary of the article, to completely ignore that. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 00:24, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Analogy to "First Citizen"[edit]

Surely "First Lady" was coined by analogy to First Citizen, a term borrowed from the Romans (Lat. Princeps), who applied it to their emperor, and applied in the U.S., along with many other Roman imperial trappings, to the President. A female head of state today would presumably be both First Citizen and First Lady, which rather highlights how silly and outdated the title has become. I would appreciate it very much if somebody with more time and interest than I have would pursue this and, if my suggestion is correct, amend the article accordingly. J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 19:55, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Section "Role as presidential partner and political institution" should be removed[edit]

It's opinionated, and it's extremely badly written, so much so that parts of it are hard to understand. I don't want to translate it into comprehensible English because I don't think it should be there at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.25.202.236 (talk) 10:22, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Femina Principalis[edit]

I can find no such title attached to Livia, the wife of Augustus, formerly Gaius Octavius. The other two wives of Augustus belong to the pre-Principate (Pamour (talk) 09:40, 20 October 2016 (UTC)).[reply]

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Requested move 25 January 2020[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 04:39, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

First Lady → First spouse – The article does not reflect worldwide view. There has been enough elected and appointed female heads of state and government to warrant a move. If the term is United States-centric then it is still appropriate to move because the term also applies to spouses of female governors. The current name is simply not neutral. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 00:15, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support I agree, not because of whether it is or isn't neutral, but because "First Lady" doesn't encompass the article's entire scope. There are many First Gentlemen who wouldn't be covered under the current article title, despite First Gentleman redirecting here.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 00:42, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to First spouse (or support). Even in the United States, most voters in the last presidential election voted for the U.S. to have a non-female "first spouse", and I support the notion of WP:Male is not the default (or at least that there shouldn't be such an assumption of "male as norm"), even if there is a de facto prevalence in the statistics. But according to MOS:JOBTITLES, there shouldn't be a capital letter on "Spouse", as this is merely a description of a role, not a formal title. —BarrelProof (talk) 01:21, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to First spouse, per BarrelProof, and the fact that few spouses of leaders actually go with the title "First Spouse". feminist (talk) 01:54, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Same reasoning I gave at chairperson back when it was chairman. Better to pick one of the gendered terms (First Lady or First Gentleman) than to go with a term like "first spouse" that nobody actually uses. The lead can be tweaked to make clear the parity between First Lady and First Gentleman, e.g.: First Lady (or for a male, First Gentleman) is an unofficial title used for the spouse of a non-monarchical head of state or chief executive. In other words, "male is not the default" is exactly right. In this case, female is the default. The problem with gender neutral language in cases like these is that there is very little need in real life to ever use it. Srnec (talk) 17:41, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose the page itself admits to conflicting with WP:COMMONNAME in the very line "First Spouse, a rare version of the title". Something cannot be both rare and common. This is fundamentally NOT an article, but rather a WP:CONCEPTDAB pointing to articles for specific countries, and so sentiments like "worldwide view" do not apply. A separate First Gentleman CONCEPTDAB could likewise be created. -- Netoholic @ 22:37, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - there is not a single human being alive who refers to himself (or herself) as a "first spouse" or who is commonly referred to that way... Red Slash 04:05, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Is there any evidence that "first spouse" is in common use? Should be moved to First lady though as a generic title. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:18, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, per discussion and common name. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:01, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and the above discussion. Aoba47 (talk) 19:14, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

What other non-spouses?[edit]

You have "Non-spouses in the role Several women (at least thirteen) who were not presidents' spouses ..."

But then you don't provide that many names. I did see that brief service of daughter Chelsea Clinton as Hillary Clinton began Senate term. Carlm0404 (talk) 03:53, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 1 February 2021[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 18:50, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]


First Lady → First lady – MOS:JOBTITLES. Showiecz (talk) 14:33, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We can also add Vice president.--65.92.160.124 (talk) 23:38, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Per MOS:JOBTITLES. Primergrey (talk) 16:16, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support its not a proper noun. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:44, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, First Lady isn't a job title. It's the historically common name of a president's or head of state's wife. If it were a job she'd be paid. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:33, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok but that still wouldn’t explain why this be different than as Prime minister, Member of parliament, Lieutenant governor, and Roman emperor etc?--65.92.160.124 (talk) 22:42, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Per common name, and per Honorific (as an honorific it would be capitalized). First Lady is not covered by MOS:JOBTITLES because it isn't a job. Simple as that. It's an unofficial honorific title given to the spouse of someone who, say, gains the White House. She goes along for the ride. It's a nickname. And I'd think we'd find that it's the common name by a large margin (unless I'm wrong, been known to have happened). Randy Kryn (talk) 01:49, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This would be true if this article only referred to the First Lady of the United States, a specific position (unofficial or otherwise) held by only one person at a time, but it's actually an article about the generic use of the title. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:01, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

About "in other countries" section[edit]

Hi, I'm wondering if this section shouldn't be changed. As of now, for the most part it is just listing of translation of the term "first lady" and "first gentleman" into other languages. I think maybe those should be removed, and only some cases that say anything more apecific about First Suppose's role in the country and government be kept.Artemis Andromeda (talk) 15:13, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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