Talk:Borscht

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Featured articleBorscht is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
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April 8, 2016Good article nomineeListed
June 5, 2016Featured article candidatePromoted
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on April 22, 2016.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that common hogweed was originally the main ingredient of borscht?
Current status: Featured article

Svekolnik isn't just an extra name for kholodnik[edit]

Aside from Pohlyobkin's definition of "svekolnik", there is Ushakov's definition, as well as Ozhegov's definition from XX century: Svekolnik word is a word which generally describes a dish - or a soup - made of beet. Therefore, "svekolnik" is not an exact equivalent of "kholodnik".

Selyodka pod shuboi[edit]

In this sense, the following passage actually describes a dish which qualies as "svekolnick" genre of foods; despite not being a borscht or a soup, hence the possible confusion between "kholodnick" and "svekolnick".

There is a cold dish coming from Soviet cuisine known in Russia as "Selyodka pod shuboi", literally "herring under furcoat". It is, in a sense, a kholodnick-themed way to serve canned fish "fillet" bits, or a way to de-soup kholodnick. It is made by putting food in layers: Canned, marinated herring goes in a deep plate/pie-baking tray to form the bottom layer, Normally, there also is a middle layer made with mashed/grated vegetables like potatoes. Finally, grated/minced beet mixed with (sour) cream is used to form the top layer, the "furcoat" of fish.

Borderline between soup and casserole types[edit]

The idea of preparing borscht per "Ingredients and Preparation" chapter have always reminded me of a dish that is not a soup. The chapter says borscht should be thick enough to make a spoon stand upright. What if borscht is - and always have been - supposed to be close to a modern casserole (in such a way)? The medieval borscht would be cooked in batches, and the modern casserole is also a dish popular for "batch cooking" life improvement tips. 2A00:1370:81A2:156:503B:F9E9:E308:7F1E (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My wife's Ukrainian borscht, as well as every bowl of borscht I ate when I was living in the country, was thin and sometimes almost 70% beet broth rather than potatoes or meat. No self-respecting spoon could ever stand in such a bowl of soup. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 11:06, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
2A00:1370:81A2:156:B135:241A:AD84:CA66 (talk) 15:32, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's interesting, actually, how your experience parts ways entirely with the stories of Burlakoff. Because the same can be said about the dish I know and remember as "borscht" in Russia. Could have been a soup with mutual Soviet origin recorded under old, faux legacy recycled name.
2A00:1370:81A2:156:D16D:EF98:B6E3:2F97 (talk) 16:09, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As mentioned 45 minutes ago, it is a generalization-like move to attach borscht and the history of borscht's metamorphosis to a whichever sole country. The user's commentary goes as following: The history part of this article explains how it was made throughout history in different versions among east slavs like ukrainians and russians. Not even the red beet variant is stated to be ukrainian in the history part, this is generalization. Ontop of that the sources given arent cited 2A00:1FA0:230:1551:0:57:1811:3A01 (talk) 20:12, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The precursor i.e. the original soup made with sour common hogweed was described as a "concotion"; see "Precursors" paragraph. My opinion is: I agree with the claim borscht had been a casserole-like dish rather than a soup. I also agree with the hints the switch from casserole style to soup style happened somewhere outside of Ukrainian influence - be it either Français haute cuisine or Polish chefs or Russian chefs or Soviet rationalization of food cooking; any of those are outside of the idea modern borscht is a part of Ukrainian legacy 109.252.79.112 (talk) 13:24, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is nothing but WP:OR on your part. WP:RS holds sway and since they are heavily in favor of Ukraine as the origin of the beet-based soup known as "borsch(t)", that is the final word. UNESCO as a source for authority is definitive. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 14:37, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Touché 109.252.73.45 (talk) 18:49, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some of those sources actually cite the soup first cooked in Borscht Belt, New York, USA. Therefore, borscht of the English-speaking people (per "this is ENGLISH Wikipedia) is actually a New York's original food - just like Caesar's salad is currently attributed to Tijuana, Mexico. 2A00:1FA0:443E:B92F:0:58:8852:5701 (talk) 09:44, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently, today, a new consensus have been established by Rodw, a highly ranked editor. 2A00:1FA0:4110:9C43:17B5:3FCC:A405:58C5 (talk) 19:12, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All I did was disambiguate the link to East Slavic to East Slavs without examining context or talk pages. The link to East Slavic next to "Place of origin" was added by User:I like Finnland with this edit.— Rod talk 19:39, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A "new consensus" has not been established and you have clearly not read the history of this article in the archives where the issue has been discussed many times. The sources are fairly consistent that the origin of beet-based borscht, which the English word refers to, is in Ukraine. You have confused the existence of things in Europe that are called borsch-like words in other languages with the simple and clearly-demonstrated reality that the English term "borscht" refers to none of these. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:42, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
on the talk page I cant see any discussion about the origin of borscht, where is it? I like Finnland (talk) 20:11, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See the button above labeled "Archives 1 2 3"? It's in there. As I recall it was sometime in the 2010s or perhaps a bit earlier. The earliest sources that definitively place beet-root borscht in Ukraine are from the 18th and 19th centuries. The modern sources are in the footnotes following the name in the infobox. These were reiterated when UNESCO declared Ukrainian borscht to be an endangered cultural item following putin's recent escalation of his 2014 invasion. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 23:53, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Awww. You're making me sad now. That's the instance of beetroot borscht, not borscht in general. That's just not making any sense. 2A00:1FA0:4110:9C43:17B5:3FCC:A405:58C5 (talk) 02:33, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
>See the button above labeled "Archives 1 2 3"? It's in there.
This is what makes me sad. 2A00:1FA0:4110:9C43:17B5:3FCC:A405:58C5 (talk) 02:46, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, the link between Barszcz ukrainsky and Borscht belt soup introduced to USA is not strong enough. Sauerkraut dishes are supposed to be associated with Germany, after all. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:32, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aren't you are the one who lets own confusion dictate this issue? Borscht is umbrella term, which haven't been addressed. 2A00:1FA0:4110:9C43:17B5:3FCC:A405:58C5 (talk) 03:28, 20 February 2024 (UTC) STRIKED. I am sorry. We had had a discussion a year ago or so. I forgot about it until this afternoon. Beetroot borscht is, however, the popular borscht. To dispute such reasoning, one should make some other borscht(s) popular. Alternatively, one should make hogweed borscht or kvass borscht or both respected anong historians well enough to recognise the significance of such "also borscht". 2A00:1FA0:2CF:194E:0:2D:9ED7:4701 (talk) 17:09, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Komst borscht[edit]

mention should be made of the unifying cultural importance of cabbage-chicken-tomato-päpakrut based komst borscht of the Ukrainian-Mennonite immigrant culture of Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Paraguay, Bolivia, Belize, Mexico, the USA prairies, and western Canada. 172.59.191.145 (talk) 22:26, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, the idea of adding chicken to beet soup does not appear to be appealing. Poultry, unlike pork or beef, just won't make a strong broth.However, komst borscht does have no beets. Very interesting... 2A00:1370:81A2:156:A823:393C:90C9:5CA1 (talk) 08:53, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, since beet soup is not equal borscht (look up "shchi svvekolnye"), there is a possibility komst borscht was a dish villagers would cook in batches. It also possible komst borscht comes with casserole-like thickness. 2A00:1FA0:20F:F43A:0:5F:2C9:6C01 (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
About "Komst Borscht": the information I have managed to find so far is limited to culinary blogs. Maybe a query in a large library aggregator with an online search form will bring more relevant data. However, I am sure it should be left for TaivoLinuguist, who is the person experienced to search for rare borscht-related data in English-speaking regions. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 07:43, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fine. Is of doings myselves, comrades ). I tried to look up "Komst borscht" pdf" for a minute. Well, instead of a book in PDF, there was a news-like mention of komst borscht. There is at least 1 news-like mention of the komst borscht, where every mention of borscht is marked with italic font. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 12:30, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just a quick heads-up.[edit]

This article combines 3 separate themes:

  • barszcz ukrainsky and its Borscht Belt adventures;
  • a whole family of traditional борщ Slavic dishes;
  • a way to cook a modern beet soup that's neither exact barszcz ukrainsky nor belonging to the family of traditional борщ.

Hope this helps. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:23, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(P.S.: Also, a Sauerkrautsuppe with tomatoes is not a borscht. But this article makes it look like it is one.) 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:23, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are quite right. As I recall from more than a decade ago, it started as a pretty straightforward look at Ukrainian beet-based borsch and its life as Jewish diaspora "borscht" in English-speaking countries (primarily the US). Then a certain group of editors objected to the "t" and started including anything that was souplike in the Slavic world that had a name that was etymologically related to the Proto-Slavic form without regard to its ingredients or historical relationship to the Ukrainian beet-based soup that became "borscht". Then everyone wanted to include grandma's version. One idea for cleaning up the mess is to 1) drop grandma's recipes, 2) make a separate article for Slavic soups in general, and 3) restrict this article to the Ukrainian beet-based soup that became "borscht" via the Yiddish-speaking Jewish diaspora to America. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 21:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to think of this idea for 30 minutes and all I can say is comme si comme ça. Back to my actual job... 81.89.66.133 (talk) 06:04, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This article is high-importance for Slavs already; Therefore it should be the other way round: move the mid-importance stuff in a separate entry. 2A00:1370:81A2:634C:86BE:60B2:E756:61DE (talk) 22:19, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[UPDATE] Welcome back.
  • Long story short: they do make several smaller articles in place of a big one in a similar situation.
  • As for the details: Making a "Happened before" section. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another idea for the sake of brainstorming: reduce to a disambiguation page: "may refer to: "Borscht (here)", "Borscht (there)", "Beet soup"; "see also: Cabbage soup, list of X dishes, list of Y dishes, etc." 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:02, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Happened before[edit]

The origin-related issue with a similar ground took place in the article on holishkes; as those, apparently, are also referred to as "golub".

Another one: blini vs blintz, which both happen to be aside from crepes - which, in turn, also happen to be separate from pancakes.

  • Now, in Russian, there is a Runglish word панкейки (for pancakes-that-are-not-blini). 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Honorary mention of an overlap of applicable meanings for a name for an alcopop[edit]

Honorary mention of a, so-to-say, linguistic overlap... Even though they only drink it in Japan now; Zima (drink) from 1990's: the word has a basic meaning in Slavic languages all while it also has an interesting meaning in Hebrew.

  • The former is somewhat relevant to the drink, which pretty much looks like a bottle of vodka-based drink (also, see 1998 ads with "A few degrees cooler" slogan)
  • The latter is... also relevant, given it's a sweeter-than-beer alcoholic drink (and not just a kid-friendly fizzy pop)(also, see early Zima ads) 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's "beet" not "beetroot"[edit]

This is an American site and should reflect the language of the majority of users and not the tiny proportion of them from the UK. 24.247.31.147 (talk) 05:13, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I only use "beet" ;) --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:01, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Same :^) 81.89.66.133 (talk) 07:03, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Origin of beet borscht[edit]

Is there any evidence that the beet (red) version of borscht originated in Ukraine?

Beet versions of borscht can be found in Russian Empire’s cookbooks published in Moscow.


For example:https://search.rsl.ru/ru/record/01002989045 1816

or https://archive.org/details/druk-02/page/n9/mode/2up 1779

176.99.249.99 (talk) 13:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. The sources are listed in the text. And even when the earliest sources state "russian empire" they localize the origin to the region of Ukraine. We use modern names for locations, so when it says that the origin was in the "lower Dnieper River Basin" (for example), that's Ukraine in Wikipedia. This has been discussed before so look it up in the archives of the Talk Page here. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 08:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, if you're going to use non-English sources, they don't count and we can ignore them unless you provide a translation into English here. You can't expect any of us to know russian. Some might, but most of us don't. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 08:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies, its 1AM here. 2A00:1370:81A2:634C:86BE:60B2:E756:61DE (talk) 22:17, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excessive lines[edit]

From the mobile device, there are excessive blank lines at the end of some paragraphs; for example, this one: Borscht#Novel ingredients: beets, tomatoes and potatoes. JacktheBrown (talk) 00:04, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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