User talk:El C/White Pride
I'm sorry, say what? I hadn't noticed us having a conflict at all, just a minor disagreement. I understand the subject matter is potentially distressing, but I hadn't seen you to be rude or anything, and I should hope that is a mutual sentiment. While I never approve of a "I don't see myself changing my mind" demeanor in regards to article content on the wiki, IMO we've hardly discussed things. In any case I appologise if I have said or done anything which has disturbed you, and am very open to advice, criticism, commentary, requesting more editors to join the discussion, or whatever you might like. I've article related comments on the Talk:White_pride. Nice cats, BTW. Sam [Spade] 23:35, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thanks, he is clawing at the door to go outside as we speak. No apology necessary, I see no personal friction, and if there is distress, thus far it remains only in potentia. It is indeed -I- (not you) who is rather inflexible about the 14-Words issue — both due to format conventions as well as POV considerations. I am, of course, open to discuss any portion the article. What I attempted to get across (perhaps too forcefuly, so point taken) was that I am very doubtful you could persuade me that it requieres any additional textual prominance in the article. Either way, I am confident civility will triumph. Incidentally, the 14-Words certainly could assume such emphasis in the stub article on David Lane (where it is wholly unmentioned), or an article about Fourteen Word Press, etc. El_C
Hm, it seems like you might well know more on this subject than I do! While I have an intense interest in gangs, clubs, and secret societies (mainly the mystical kind) etc.., I am frankly only mildly interested in these "white power" guys. I actually find the term "white" offensive in its suggestion that there is so little diversity amongst those catagorized by it, and the tendancy of those using the term to ignore their unique geneology and ethnicity. I think pride is ok, but I prefer to be proud of other things, rather than my hue (some "white" guys w a deep tan are darker than some "black" guys of mixed anscestry!). Besides, I'm not white, I'm some sort of light pink / peach ;) Cheers, Sam [Spade] 15:27, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Honestly, I don't know that I do and I think you give me more credit than is due (if only other editors were as generous as you when it comes to subjects I actually have vast familiarity with!). It just that these articles (Racialism, White Pride, White Power) all seemed to me POV, flawed and incomplete. I do not know, for example, why the 14-Words are considered key for White Pride. I would be interested to learn why this is. Of course, a 'valuation' of human beings according to racial categories is both absurd and insidious — I took it as a given throughout that you also adhere to this position (otherwise, trust me, I would not be having this conversation, or any conversation for that matter, with you). I hope you did not feel I somehow implied the contrary. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Regards,
While I don't agree w a "silent treatment" towards racists / racialists, I can of course understand why you might find them disturbing. The problem w this is that it maintains the source of their opinions: isolation from diversity. Perhaps its the psyche major in me, but I feel that those of distressing politics (like communists and anarchists for example) are best reformed thru logical dialogue. Your position makes me curious if you have any idea how many racialists there really are. IMO they are in the majority, esp. outside of the USA (again, I don't know where you live). They don't all go to meetings or whatever, but their pretty free with informing me of their opinions. Of course people are especially open with me, that is why I have chosen to go into psychology in the first place. In any case, they are not necessarilly evil people, they simply have been either misinformed, or had unfortunate circumstances. Sometimes all it takes is growing up in a homgeneous community, and watching TV. Sometimes grandpa teaches bad lessons, sometimes the whole community. To be honest, life would be easier if all bad people were of one race, all good people of another, etc.. It makes a certain kind of horse sense. Unfortunately, it simply doesn't work that way, in my experience skin tone / ethnicity are a poor indicator of morality. But I have had a diverse life, w diverse experiences. I try to educate those of different backgrounds (like by editing the encyclopedia here ;), rather than isolating them. It always seem to fall on deaf ears, but those of distressing POV's are people too, and it's not necessarilly a good thing to persecute them (this often confirms their suspicions). Cheers, Sam [Spade] 19:54, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, choosing to engage and trying to reason with them is certainly your prerogative. Admittedly, I do not have the patience of a psychologist. I wager that we differ on which political world views we find distressing, but I caution you against juxtaposing the Left with the same distress simply because your disposition is from the Right. The Left (Revolutionary Socialists), the Moderate Left (Social Democrates), the Moderate Right (Reform Liberals), and the Right (Liberals, aka Neoliberals/Conservatives) — and the entire Left (Socialism) and the entire Right (Liberalism) — in general, are overwhelmingly anti-racist. Of course, this varies highly per given x, but the point I am trying to get across is that I view those individuals who follow race-centred doctrines differently. I have zero tolerance for people who condemn others and/or self-aggrandize themseleves based on arbitrary physical traits which the 'victim' (both the racist, and more so, the 'inferior races') has no control over. This is not the case with the non-racist Left-Right whereby any person (belonging to any concievable racial category) can join based only on their political sympathies. I view this as a pivotal distinction. El_C
That would strike me as very egalitarian, if not for the "everybody but bigots" aspect ;). I suppose this is the exception that makes the rule? I myself reject the very concept of equality on its face, seeing it as a false doctrine leading to inefficiency. While you revile the racist for his bigotry, I sympathize with his error. As I said above, it would be handy if all people were clearly marked as good or ill, because their are bad people, and good. I simply find the racists method of determining character inaccurate, and unchristian. God asks us to love our neighbor, not persecute him based on his ancestry. Quite distinct from either a racist or an egalitarian, I am a firm believer in hierarchical meritocracy. Those of obvious skill, merit and honor should be promoted, and those who are incompetent, treacherous, and malignant should be demoted. I prefer a careful, kindly janitor who gets the job done to a malpracticing brain surgeon anyway ;) Little could be worse in my eyes than the slow death by inefficiency which the attempts at equality (an unachievable goal) in communism create. That is why it is so very easy for me to present anarcho-communism as an example of a distressing ideology. Oh, and we mustn’t forget their attempts to enforce atheism, the single greatest crime (in my worldview). Perhaps racism is the greatest crime in your worldview, but I will tell you, the best cure (indeed the only cure I have ever seen to work) for racism, is God. Cheers, Sam [Spade] 12:05, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This then, as I suspected, is where are our worldviews differ. I tend to follow Marx in approaching religion as an opiate, though I would not wish to enforce my views (or lack thereof) with respect to God and religion upon others. Incidentally, Marxist-Leninists believe that incentive is central to efficiency and that only in the final phase of Communism (as opposed to the stage of the Dictatorship of the Prolatriat) can Marx's 'work according to abilities - pay according to need' become tenable (an example close to our own fields: a university professor in the USSR was paid 6,000 rubals p/m whereas an unskilled workers was paid the minimum wage of 200 rubals). But this is all an aside, and perhaps it is futile to elaborate beyond this without entering into predictable polemics. At any rate, I staunchly support a meriotocratic system, I think where we part ways is with which antecedents are most suited to actualize the inherent potential of individuals meritocratically and how this can be best facilitated (what you title equality in a negative, monolithic sense). Having said all that, I think you nailed it quite pointedly when you comment that, when it comes to intellectual disocurse, my egalitarinism ommits bigots (incidentally, not just them: religious fundamentalists, also) — indeed it does, for precisely the reasons stated in my prior response. Lastly, I neither view racism nor religious persecution (both theistic and atheistic), etc., as the worse crime. The worse crime is when innocent people are harmed en mass, most acutely seen in a (any) genocide(s) — regadless who the perpetrators are and what they stand (or claim to stand) for. Regards, El_C
A very interesting and wonderful communication! I am most impressed that we spoke so long, and so politely disagreed on such potentially inflamatory matters (religion and politics). I think this speaks volumes as to your intellegence (in having understood me) and your character (being able to disagree while maintaining politeness). I appreciate this very much. I agree however this conversation is near ending, especially since it leads to a very fundamental disagreement on religion, and converting others is not what wikipedia intends us to to be doing here. I thank you again for the pleasent conversation, and hope I do not offend you in saying a prayer that you may find God. Sam [Spade] 21:46, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I thank you for the many kind words, Sam. These are very much appreciated.
All the best,