Talk:Tamar of Georgia

Tamar of Georgia has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
August 2, 2008	Peer review	Reviewed
September 20, 2008	Good article nominee	Listed

A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on January 18, 2018.

Current status: Good article

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Comment[edit]

Dear Levzur, I just cannot understand why have you removed the words stating David Soslani's Ossetian roots. As far as I know, he was a descendant of the Georgian prince Demetre Bagrationi, who was a son of King Giorgi I and his Ossetian wife Alde.

Best wishes, Kober

Correct name[edit]

I do belive that the correct English name would be king Tamar. For example, we say Davit Mepe, which is King David in English, so we should use Tamara, rather than Tamar, I suppose. SosoMK 20:59, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

you mean King Tamar (considering that in georgian she is called [Tamar Mepe]). And i to dubble Soso about name of the article - Tamar of Georgia sould be King Tamar of Georgia. psycho_NIX 13:01, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

she was king not queen so you sould use king tamar not queenMerriame (talk) 19:12, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

David Soslan, A Historic Name, A Legend, and A Historic Legend[edit]

Was David Soslan descendant of Bagrationi Family? Is it a definitive information? The only thing about David Soslan, what we know is; he was the son of the king of Alania.

how did she die?[edit]

doesn't say... anyone know? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.246.9.199 (talk) 21:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image in the infobox[edit]

I don't understand why the medieval image has been replaced with a modern one. In which way is this picture "a standard depiction"? I think it's far better to have a contemporary or near-contemporary depiction rather than a highly romanticized modern image whose origin is not completely clear to me. I think this is a 20th-century picture whose authorship and copyright status is not indicated. --Kober^Talk 04:17, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if by highly-romanticized you mean it is not overly-simplistic and does not have scratches...I agree, it is certainly not a flat, medieval depiction. I have nothing against the older frescoes per se, but my reasoning was that 1.the previous image was already present in the article and 2.that it was very hard to decipher what Tamar and her apparel actually looked like. The modern painting, regardless of its idealistic depiction, I feel gives the readers a better idea without throwing them into confusion.

Moreover, just because the fresco is contemporary does not mean that it is more representative than the modern depiction based on it; lets face it, medieval painters were not very good at what they did, not only in Georgia but across Europe. If we remove everything romanticized, I'm afraid pages of most monarchs will be left without any paintings.

Finally, I do not see why this image should be singled out. For example, the painting by Hungarian Zichy has never been challenged even though it depicts Tamar's court more as that of Islamic Persia,( with peacock feathers and carpets) than as that of a proper, Christian Georgian monarch. I am afraid this is a result of perverted Russian fantasies of Georgia as an exotic place where they could get away from the drabness of their contemporary, neoclassical St. Petersburg. My image will provide a good counterbalance to this falsehood. And again, the old frescoes are still in every corner of the article for everyone to be seen. Regards.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 14:30, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's not our job to assess the painting skills of medieval artists. The image of Tamar from Vardzia is not definitely over-simplistic. Having scratches is not a valid reason to reject the image. I don't agree that "because the fresco is contemporary does not mean that it is more representative than the modern depiction based on it". Did you know that many modern portraits of Georgian monarchs so familiar to us are in fact based on the portraits of the 20th-century Georgian actors and actresses? Regarding the painting by Zichy, I would basically agree with you, but in this case at least the authorship and date of the painting are known. Could you provide similar info for the picture you're insisting on?--Kober^Talk 15:46, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just updated it with the info of the book from which the scan is made. I honestly do not know the name of the painter, it just says mid-19th century, but we do not know the names of those who painted frescoes either. And to be fair, neither do we know whether they also used some people as models, or Queen Tamar was modeling herself, or they just painted from memory. Regards.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 16:06, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, we don't know who painted the fresco, but what we do know is that it is not subject to copyright. Your image may well be from the mid-19th century and hence in public domain, though. I did not really know that Salia's book included colored illustrations. --Kober^Talk 16:21, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kober, I think you perhaps unintentionally deleted my work on specifying who the Zakarids were and how they were related to Q.Tamar. Can you explain please. Zimmarod (talk) 20:10, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

hello, hello, anyone there? Zimmarod (talk) 21:08, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for a late reply, but I think mentioning the Zacharids' background in each section is redundant. Their origin in the Armenian milieu and the fact that they held high ranks at Tamar's court are already mentioned earlier in the text.--Kober^Talk 04:20, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

a legend about her tomb[edit]

according a legend in machakhel; Tamar dedopal buried in there (machakheli-efeler/ეფრატი village, Artvin) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.236.61.123 (talk) 16:58, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

move Tamar of Georgia to Tamar the Great[edit]

Support to move. Jorjadze (talk) 19:28, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If no objections are met page will be moved. Jorjadze (talk) 16:42, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a proper procedure for move. Please follow Wikipedia:Moving a page and Wikipedia:Requested moves.--Kober^Talk 17:05, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. And for the record I oppose the move.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 19:14, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 02 November 2013[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 20:01, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tamar of Georgia → Tamar the Great – Her name is not just Tamar of Georgia but it should be Tamar the Great as her importance is very high. Jorjadze (talk) 10:49, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Survey[edit]

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Oppose No one is arguing that she was not called Tamar the Great but Tamar of Georgia is the more common form used in sources. Overall it is ill advice to use nicknames to denote monarchs of Georgia due to their obscurity to English audiences; the "of Georgia" tell us more about the person than the nickname that many might even get. The nickname is still shown in the article. --The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 10:57, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The "X of Georgia" construct is more informative and descriptive. Furthermore, the Georgian nicknames can be rendered in English in various ways, creating confusion. Even the Georgian-language encyclopedias don't use nicknames in the title of an article about a monarch.--Kober^Talk 12:25, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You may want to read WP:COMMONNAME. Jorjadze (talk) 18:00, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment/suggestion "Tamar the Great" is definitely an option to consider, however, I'm not so sure if it is a suitable title. Google Books indicates 375 results for "Tamar of Georgia" and 171 for "Tamar the Great".

"Tamar" "queen" gets over 51,000 results, so why don't we rename this to Tamar, Queen of Georgia similar to Diana, Princess of Wales? Please see the VIAF page for Tamar. "Tamar, Queen of Georgia" is what the Library of Congress uses [1]. --Երևանցի ^talk 19:24, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tamar was NOT the Queen. She was one of the greatest monarchs and was called as KING Tamar (თამარ მეფე tamar mepe). Jorjadze (talk) 18:00, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A female king? I have no idea what the word "mepe" means and it is quite irrelevant in English Wikipedia. Read my comment over. "Tamar, Queen of Georgia" is the form that the Library of Congress uses. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:31, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Current discussion is to move it to Tamar the Great. Do you support it or oppose? Jorjadze (talk) 18:36, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm leaning towards oppose, because Google Books results has more "Tamar of Georgia" than "Tamar the Great". --Երևանցի ^talk 18:44, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Any source on naming her son Lasha?[edit]

Why would a Kartvelian(or Armenian) monarch would do such a thing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.172.61.230 (talk) 18:10, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lasha means beautiful, or pretty in old Georgian. it was a sort of nickname to king George IV given by his mother King Tamar. Zhuvacka (talk) 19:30, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Georgian empire with tributaries.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:53, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Trebizond[edit]

I thought the Trebizond expedition would have begun in the Reign of Alexios III, just before Alexios IV and slightly more before the Latin occupation of Constantinople etc.? Middle More Rider (talk) 19:04, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]