Talk:Romance copula

Query

Can whoever wrote the section for ser/estar in Spanish explain why "ser" is always used with "feliz"? I've always wondered about this because they never say "soy triste" but always "soy feliz" ThePedanticPrick 04:20, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think this is now clear in the article. Chameleon 08:28, 28 Oct 2004

I'm a native spanish speaker and I have to disagree with the article regarding the use of ser/estar feliz.

you can use both "Estoy feliz" (as of now) and "Soy feliz" (permanent) 14:00, 28 Jan 2008

(UTC)

Interresting. In Portuguese:

Hoje, estou feliz! = Today, I'm Happy!

I'm a Happy person = Sou uma pessoa feliz!

I'm Happy = Estou feliz! (in this moment)

I'm Happy = Sou Feliz! (I'm married, I have a lovely wife and I've two kids)

the same:

Hoje, estou triste! = I'm sad (now)

sou triste (very odd.... not very usual to say, I never heard it) but "és um triste" is used, and it is very offensive. "Sou um triste" ("I'm a sad guy" very depressing thing to say, the person must be suicidal)

in alternative we use:

"Sou uma pessoa triste"

"és uma pessoa triste" (not offensive)

"sempre fui triste" (or tristonho)

"Eu era triste, mas agora não"

but "sou triste"... using these two words only, no. -Pedro 16:15, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Creoles

A Creole language has not the same classification has an usual language. You can not say that Haitian is a Romance language!! it isn't, it is a French Creole (stop) It means it uses French words (almost fully) in another context, another grammar (can be simple, can be broken, can be traceable to another language), but not French. -Pedro 21:28, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I put Haitian as a subsection of the French section for that reason. Before that, it was just there as a Romance language. I think it's fine now. It's interesting info. No need to remove it. Chamaeleon 21:41, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Haitian, a creole deriving from French, has a reputation as the most linguistically exotic of the Romance languages; and it lives up to this reputation with its copula system. It has three forms of the copula: se, ye, and the lack of any word (whose position we will indicate with a placeholder "_", just for purposes of illustration).

Here's the problem. You can use it has a curiosity. But not has a Romance Language. -Pedro 23:04, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

POV check

Antagonizes the "mistake" that estar means "temporary" and ser means "permanant". That portion of the article should be rewritten. Peter O. (Talk, automation script) 02:14, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)

Ser x Estar in Portuguese

The use of ser/estar in Portuguese is generally similar to Spanish, but there are a few differences. For example, one would say in Portuguese: "a cadeira é feita de madeira", whereas in Spanish, I believe one says: "la silla está hecha de madera". I also noticed when traveling by plane that one says in Spanish: "está prohibido fumar en este vuelo", while in Portuguese we say: "é proibido fumar neste vôo". Likewise, we say in Portuguese: "é permitido fumar" and "eu sou casado" (the use of "estar" in those contexts would be considered wrong by a native speaker). The biggest difference though compared to Spanish is perhaps the use of "ficar" (and sometimes "ser") instead of "estar" to indicate location, e.g. "o Teatro São Pedro fica na Rua São Luís"; "Onde é/fica o seu apartamento?"

Are there any differences between European and Brazilian Portuguese in this matter? Chamaeleon 09:46, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No, I don't think there are any differences between European and Brazilian Portuguese in that matter. You would have to confirm that though with a Portuguese informant (I'm Brazilian).

OK. I think it would be great if you could add some more Portuguese examples to the article, especially ones demonstrating small, tricky points, such as I added to the Spanish section (e.g. estar pez, estar bien, estar loco, no estar católico, ¿dónde es la fiesta?, ¿dónde está/queda la sala de fiestas?, etc. Chamaeleon 21:29, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

---

• well in Portuguese:

Eu estou verde (I'm green)

yesterday I wasnt. People laugh because [now] I'm green.

ontem não estava. As pessoas riem porque [agora] estou verde.

Eu sou verde (I'm green)

I've always been green. People laugh because I'm green.

Sempre fui verde. As pessoas riem por eu ser verde.

conclude for yourself. -Pedro 21:40, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you could add your knowledge of Portuguese to the article, Pedro? Use the Spanish section as a guide. Chamaeleon 21:50, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm OK = Estou bem!

You're crazy = Estás Louco! (now) or és louco! (always)

I'm not Catholic = Não sou católico! - Não estás católico! (slang - You are not catholic - you are drunk! I dont want you to drink!)

¿dónde es la fiesta? - Onde é a festa?

¿dónde está/queda la sala de fiestas? - Onde é a sala de festas? (onde está does not sound very good, cause the room doesnt move!) ;) well if it is in a boat or a bus... LOL -Pedro 21:54, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

So, when talking about a person, would you ask Onde és?, Onde estás? or Onde ficas?? Does não estár católico specifically mean "to be drunk"? Chamaeleon 22:09, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• yes, if you use "estar" directly changes the meaning of "catolico" (to not being ok, usualy 0drunk, crazy...). If you use "ser" you change the meaning to catholic. That's a slang, and slang changes everything. But a Portuguese will immidiatly know the difference! That's a slang, so it possibly is exclusive to Portugal, I dont know if exists in Brazil or Angola. -Pedro 22:16, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I was about to add "não estár católico" to the article, but first I did a Google search for the phrase, and found virtually nothing! It doesn't seem to be a common expression. Chamaeleon 00:20, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ah, by adding "muito", I get more results. But none seem to refer to drunkenness. They seem to mean "to not work very well", "to be ugly". Chamaeleon 00:35, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Estar" or "Está". Not "estár". No. It doesnt mean Ugly, it means not normal, usual, and it seems to exist in Brazil also, in fact it returns more Brazilian hits than Portuguese, that's because they are much more people.

from a Portuguese hit: "ele hoje não está muito católico" (today, he is not very rational) often refered to be drunk, because you loose your rationality while drunk.

A Brazilian Hit showed "hoje o dia não está muito católico" (it means: today the day is not very normal", it is possibly raining, because usualy the weather is fine. What leads you to think that people would write that in the Internet? It is not a very common slang, but it exists. I went to search if the young Portuguese/Angolan slang "bué de fixe" (very cool) existed and it returned more than 500, but I'm not that surprized because there are a lot of young people on the net. if there were more older people writing blogs, we would have more hits. -Pedro 13:03, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

that brings me the idea: if you search the 500 hits, all of them (except those Port. people that use Brazilian sites), are Portuguese. Then you would think that only the Portuguese use "Bué de fixe". In fact, only young Portuguese (urban) use it. While Angolans use it if they are young or old, from the city or from the jungle. A Portuguese elder doesnt even understand it.-Pedro 13:14, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Latin

I think this...

Imperfect: STABAM, STABAS, STABAT, STABAMVS, STABATIS, STABANT

is fascinating. It didnt change much after 2000 years! O_O. I already knew that latin did had the sound \v\. And I usually use it when people from the south make fun of us, for occasionally use a \b\ instead of \v\. There should be more articles, comparing Latin with Modern Romance Languages. -Pedro 23:49, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I know, it's amazing, isn't it?

Wouldnt be great to put the final part of the article the conjugation in the various languages together with Latin in the top of it? It would give a lot of work...-Pedro 23:18, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

But we already have the full conjugation there.

Sorry, but the "V" in STABAMVS was pronounced "u". Latin did not have seperate letters for I and J, nor for U and V. --Zantastik talk 15:22, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Tables

Can someone please help me convert all the conjugation tables at the end of the article to proper table format? — Chameleon 13:51, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Latin supine sto -> statum

Just a pedantic quibble, but in the page as it stands (no pun intended 8>), equivalence is made between the supine of the latin verb sto and the forms status, stata, statum. Strictly speaking, the given paradigm is not of the supine, but forms of the past participle, a verbal adjective derived from it. The supine is of course a principle part identical in form to the last member of the group, functioning as verbal noun statum with statu in the ablative.

Apologies for nit-picky quibbling, but I'm a fan of verbal nouns (and non-finite verbal syntax in general), and just couldn't let it stand (ho-ho).

Thanks for a great article though!

Tintagel :->

Spanish copula

Hi,

On the Royal Spanish Academy dictionary website, it says ser came from seer. I also read in A History of the Spanish Language, p.8 that essere is a hypothetical word.^[1] So, how would we know it has an accent on the first e? Did Vular Latin even use accent marks? In the history from Cambridge, it spells it using small caps without an accent. I'm all for keeping the material, as the esse part is definitely right. But should we add seer (even though I'm not sure where we would in the timeline)?

Primetime 04:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

We know because in Latin esse has the accent on the first e (and esse > essere) and because languages such as Catalan and Occitan have forms with the accent on the first e which are known have come from an "essere" (Cat. ésser, Occ. èstre), although of course those languages didn't evolve the same as Spanish, but, anyways, check out what the GDLC says on Catalan ésser: [s. XII; del ll. vg. essere, substitut en la llengua oral del ll. cl. esse, íd.], which translates as "XIIth century; from Vulgar Latin essere, substitute in oral speech for Cl. Latin esse, id."

Esser vs. sedere

I think this article should give more recognition to the theory that some forms of ser derive from sedere, simply because several scholarly sources make this assertion. Currently the article starts off with the assertion that the modern Romance copula is derived only from esse and stare. The only mention of the sedere theory is

According to the dictionary of the Real Academia, the verb ser derives from the Latin verb "to sit":

   * SEDERE → *seder → seer → ser

However, although it is possible that SEDERE may have been absorbed and merged into ser, it is clear that the meaning and the majority of the forms of the modern Spanish verb come from ESSE.

I'm pretty sure I recall Jozsef Herman supporting sedere in his Vulgar Latin. It seems to me that Herman and the Royal Spanish Academy (as a start) make the sedere approach notable enough to deserve slightly more prominent coverage here. (A linguist friend suggested to me that esser is the majority scholarly view and sedere is the minority view, but lots of Wikipedia articles discuss minority scholarly views in more detail or more prominently.) I'm not familiar enough with the controversy to have an opinion. Schoen 19:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Amusingly, now I have the opposite criticism of the article: it asserts the sedere theory without suggesting that there is any alternative. :-) Schoen 04:21, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The article looks OK now. But aren't some present-tense forms of the copula (especially 2sg. sei etc., 2pl. siete etc., 1pl. siamo etc.), and various others, also descended from forms of sedere in several (not all) of the languages? Perhaps this could be made more explicit in the article. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:02, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

The Italian forms of 'be' have nothing to do with sedere (which exists as a full verb 'sit', has undergone the expected stress-conditioned diphthongization -- siedo but sediamo, etc.). The question unaddressed is whether sedere forms were adopted for 'be' in Spanish for any item other than eroded infinitive (and infinitive-based future and conditional).47.32.20.133 (talk) 14:20, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

fu-

I miss a slight mention to Latin sum actually mixing itself two earlier verbs, essere and another with the root fu-.

Merging the conjugation tables

At the start of the conjugation section, it's said that only simple tenses will be listed, as all Romance languages have many compound tenses as well. Yet lower in the page many compound tenses appear. I guess the original spirit of this article has been a little forgotten. I've been working on a more compact version of the conjugation tables which might put the article back on track, but would appreciate some feedback. I know there are probably some mistakes below, but let me know what you think of this format. FilipeS 09:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Indicative Mood
	Latin		Italian		French	Spanish		Portuguese
Present	SVM ES EST SVMVS ESTIS SVNT	STO STAS STAT STAMVS STATIS STANT	sono sei è siamo siete sono	sto stai sta stiamo state stanno	suis es est sommes êtes sont	soy eres es somos sois son	estoy estás está estamos estáis están	sou és é somos sois são	estou estás está estamos estais estão
Perfect (Preterite)	FVI FVISTI FVIT FVIMVS FVISTIS FVERVNT	STETI STETISTI STETIT STETIMVS STETISTIS STETERVNT	fui fosti fu fummo foste furono	stetti stesti stette stemmo steste stettero	fus fus fut fûmes fûtes furent	fui fuiste fue fuimos fuisteis fueron	estuve estuviste estuvo estuvimos estuvisteis estuvieron	fui foste foi fomos fostes foram	estive estiveste esteve estivemos estivestes estiveram
Imperfect	ERAM ERAS ERAT ERAMVS ERATIS ERANT	STABAM STABAS STABAT STABAMVS STABATIS STABANT	ero eri era eravamo eravate erano	stavo stavi stava stavamo stavate stavano	étais étais était étions étiez étaient	era eras era éramos erais eran	estaba estabas estaba estábamos estabais estaban	era eras era éramos éreis eram	estava estavas estava estávamos estáveis estavam
Pluperfect	FVERAM FVERAS FVERAT FVERAMVS FVERATIS FVERANT	STETERAM STETERAS STETERAT STETERAMVS STETERATIS STETERANT	-	-	-	fuera fueras fuera fuéramos fuerais fueran	estuviera estuvieras estuviera estuviéramos estuvierais estuvieran	fora foras fora fôramos fôreis foram	estivera estiveras estivare estivéramos estivéreis estiveram
Future	ERO ERIS ERIT ERIMVS ERITIS ERVNT	STABO STABIS STABIT STABIMVS STABITIS STABVNT	sarò sarai sarà saremmo sareste sarebbero	starò starai starà staremo starete staranno	serai seras sera serons serez seront	seré serás será seremos seréis serán	estaré estarás estará estaremos estaréis estarán	serei serás será seremos sereis serão	estarei estarás estará estaremos estareis estarão
Subjunctive Mood
	Latin		Italian		French	Spanish		Portuguese
Present	SIM SIS SIT SIMVS SITIS SINT	STEM STES STET STEMVS STETIS STENT	sia sia sia siamo siate siano	stia stia stia stiamo stiate stianno	sois sois soit soyons soyez soient	sea seas sea seamos seáis sean	esté estés esté estemos estés estén	seja sejas seja sejamos sejais sejam	esteja estejas esteja estejamos estejais estejam
Perfect (Preterite)	FVERIM FVERIS FVERIT FVERIMVS FVERITIS FVERINT	STETERIM STETERIS STETERIT STETERIMVS STETERITIS STETERINT	-	-	-	fuere fueres fuere fuéremos fuereis fueren	estuviere estuvieres estuviere estuviéremos estuviereis estuvieren	for fores for formos fordes forem	estiver estiveres estiver estivermos estiverdes estiverem
Imperfect	ESSEM ESSES ESSET ESSEMVS ESSETIS ESSENT	STAREM STARES STARET STAREMVS STARETIS STARENT	-	-	-	-	-	ser seres ser sermos serdes serem (?)	estar estares estar estarmos estardes estarem (?)
Pluperfect	FVISSEM FVISSES FVISSET FVISSEMVS FVISSETIS FVISSENT	STETISSEM STETISSES STETISSET STETISSEMVS STETISSETIS STETISSENT	fossi fossi fosse fossimo foste fossero	stessi stessi stesse stessimo steste stessero	fusse fusses fût fussions fussiez fussent	fuese fueses fuese fuésemos fueseis fuesen	estuviese estuvieses estuviese estuviésemos estuvieseis estuviesen	fosse fosses fosse fôssemos fôsseis fossem	estivesse estivesses estivesse estivéssemos estivésseis estivessem
Imperative mood and non-finite forms
	Latin		Italian		French	Spanish		Portuguese
Imperative	ES ESTE	STA STATE	sii siate	sta state	sois soyez	sé sed	está estad	sê sede	está estai
Infinitive	ESSE	STARE	essere	stare	être	ser	estar	ser	estar
Perfect participle	ESVM	STATVM	stato	stato	été	sido	estado	sido	estado
Gerund	ESENDVM	STANDVM	essendo	stando	étant	siendo	estando	sendo	estando

Thinking better, it doesn't seem to make much sense to proscribe periphrases from an article whose topic is the copula. This not primarily about historical linguistics or etymology... FilipeS 22:48, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I've simplified the table and added it to the article as a morphological comparison between Romance languages.

Although I left the old tables in place, I feel that they should be simplified. Nowadays, it's easy to ask for conjugation tables at a free oline conjugator. It would make more sense to make a comparison between the constructions that are used in each language to convey the same meaning, for example. FilipeS 21:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Tasty, sexy?!

Is this right?

adjective	with estar	with ser
bueno	tasty, sexy	good

I thought estar bueno was "to be good" and ser bueno was "to be kind"... FilipeS 15:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe ser bueno is both "to be good" and "to be kind", depending of the context. Estar bueno is "to be sexy" or "to be looking good" at least in south america. Can't really say if this atis true in other places too. 200.233.128.89 15:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Weird about verb "stare" in Italian

The following statement is totally non sense: Stare can mean "to stand" (usually stare in piedi) but this is common only in the expression stare per, "to stand for" i.e. in abbreviations.

I'll remove it.

Is got?

In the "Nuance" section for the Spanish language, the article gives "he is got old" as a possible translation for "Está viejo". However, that makes no sense in English. You could say "He has got old" or "He is getting old"; I think the latter is what the author intended, as it fits with the other examples. If no one objects within a few days, I'll change "got" to "getting". Seansinc (talk) 08:49, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

*essere, stāre and sedēre sounded similar in Latin

STARE sounded quite distinct from ESSE(RE) and SEDERE, just as it does today. 47.32.20.133 (talk) 18:56, 10 June 2018 (UTC)