Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of villains/2004-11-09

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List of villains was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was to keep the article.

  • Delete. Gross, great big POV. Mikkalai 08:22, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Strike myself. Indeed, this list without any expanations invited for vfd. Renaed as List of fictional villains it is surely OK. (And I don't buy into Aranel's remark about the usage of the word "villain" only in literature.) By the way, what about List of fictional heroes?

Mikkalai 15:52, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

      • FWIW, my recollection is that this list was spun off of the main villain article when it became unwieldy. A similar list appears at hero, but that one needs much more work; fictional heroes and historical heroes sit side by side there. Smerdis of Tlön 21:51, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Needs npovification, but the topic is not incurably POV. — Gwalla | Talk 08:33, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • So, who is villain? Every politician is villain, they say. Mikkalai 08:41, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • comment: So delete the POV entries. You don't need VfD for that. — Gwalla | Talk 08:43, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Inherently POV. One man's villan is another man's hero. --Gene s 08:44, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete -- GWO 09:55, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete in its current form, a List of fictional villains or List of fictional antagonists may be appropriate, but including historical figures in such a way is a POV task. There may be a way to split some of the historic references off into a list as well, but we'd have to be more careful. Perhaps List of leaders of movements that have caused genocide —siroχo 09:59, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
    • This list is already of fictional villians (some of them based on real persons). Are there any villians in real life? Jeltz 10:30, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I don't see the POV entires really. It says "Historical figures who often figure as villains in fiction" and that doesn't mean that the list says that they really are/were villians. Now I don't have an oppinion about if it's good to have a section like thta or not. Maybe inappropriate content put I don't think that it's POV. Jeltz 10:22, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Actual historical figures should only be listed on this list if they appear as the villain in a notable work of fiction (the minimum requirement should be that a Wikipedia article exists), and the work should be listed. For example, Cardinal Richelieu in The Three Musketeers. Or even Saddam Hussein in South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut. But Michael Moore's recent output doesn't count. Average Earthman 10:40, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Move to List of fictional villains, and keep the redir. There is nothing wrong with the list itself, but the title is just an invitation for POV entries. Agree with Average Earthman: if a real person figures as a villain in fiction, it should be attributed (and must be attributed if the person is still alive): the fictional portrayal is not the person themselves, and we must keep a close eye out for factual accuracy and NPOV here. JRM 11:03, 2004 Nov 9 (UTC)
  • Keep. As valid as most lists on Wikipedia.Paul Tracy 12:05, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep but restyle. There should be examples about the fiction in which the historical villains appear (like Julius Ceasar in Asterix, the Daltons in the Lucky Luke comics, Saddam Hussein in South Park, etc. --Mixcoatl 12:38, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

One more suggestion: It's hard to find a fictional reference to people Draco, Quisling or Torquemada. But their names have become synonyms for resp. exessivly severe laws, collaboration and cruelty, so I think they should stay on this list, even if there's not fictional reference to them. --Mixcoatl 16:41, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

    • Good idea. If there were an example of in what notable fiction the person has been an villian in then it can't be seen as POV. Jeltz 13:44, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. This is useful and interesting. I agree that it would be preferable to provide examples for the historical figures for purposes of verification and to avoid random POV additions. It might be appropriate to move to List of fictional villains for purposes of clarity, but the term villain in modern English does mostly apply to fiction. -[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 13:50, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Most of the historical villains used in fiction are pretty obvious --- Captain Bligh, William Burke, Cardinal Richelieu. Although we probably do need an article on Ilsa: She-Wolf of the SS and its several sequels. Smerdis of Tlön 15:54, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Looks fairly sensible.
  • Keep. Perhaps move, although List of fictional villains is misleading, as many appear in fiction, but are not fictional. All such examples, however, should be referenced (with explanations rather than fictional works in the cases Mixcoatl mentioned above, and maybe Catiline too). Likewise McCarthy should maybe be mentioned, though he was not a character in the Crucible (not directly anyway). -R. fiend 16:57, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep. But should definitely move to something like List of villains in fiction. Amusing list, potential to become Wikipedic. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 20:35, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep The list has a notice that all the historical figures are usually portrayed as villians and doesn't label anyone, and is therefore not POV... --Asmodai 21:42, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep after moving. Not really much different to any other list of fiction, of which we have plenty. Shane King 01:02, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
  • KeepGkhan 16:03, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, useful content, but may need retitling or restructuring. -- The Anome 16:33, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, but work on POVMcKay 19:10, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Useless list. --Improv 19:32, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. As useful as most Wikipedia lists, that is to say, not at all, since inherently un-maintainable, and comprehensive list would have tens of thousands of entries making it useless. Jayjg 12:23, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    I dislike big discussions on VfD (a vote is a vote and not a debate on why it's right or wrong), so I've copied this and my reaction to Wikipedia talk:List, while keeping in mind that we're talking about a specific list, a specific opinion, and my specific personal reaction. JRM 13:22, 2004 Nov 14 (UTC)
  • Keep, possible rename. Encourage contributors to name the work of fiction in which real people appear as villains. Kappa 22:48, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.

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