Talk:Hindustani classical music

Untitled

I've merged in content from Music of India and Indian classical music, content which all-along should have belonged here, IMHO (See Talk:Music of India). However, the article needs copy-editing bigtime. Among others, the sections names don't cohere at all - they're there simply because they reflect all the content moved in from other places. To top it all, since I have little knowledge of Hindustani music, I hope someone cross-checks the technical sections, such as the descriptions of the various types of compositions. Ambarish 15:43, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Who are Afghan Mughuls?

Afghan Mughuls? Who were they?

Anyone has a reference who the Afghan Mughuls were?

The Mughuls started from Timur i Lang who was Turk from his fathers side and Mongol from his Mother's. The Mughul rulers lived in exile in Afghanistan (Khorasan) whenever they lost India but went back. Are they called Afghan Mughuls as a result?

Next the Hazaras in Afghanistan are of Mongol origins. If Mughul here simply means Mongol, this implies Hazaras went to India to play music. Hazaras have no such traditions and there are no such records of Hazaras being a part of the Mughul court as musicians (or anywhere else in India).

I strongly feel the author typed 'Afghan' there for biased reasons.

Afghan Mughuls renamed as Mughals

I changed Afghan mughuls to Mughals. There is lot of changes need in Article Hindustani music. It is not good to write it was started at the court of Delhi sultanate. what ever be the heart of Hindustani music is Central India ie Madhyapradesh and Maharashtra. But all places in North India had classical music. and it floorished in the age of Tansen. Hrisforu 04:45, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Composers

This page need a list of composers of Hindustani classical music urgently!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.217.29.110 (talk) 14:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

Sitar players

Who are these - Pandit Habib Khan, Sanjoy Bandapadaya, Purbayan Chatterjee? Heard Purbayan but is he 1% of the greats mentioned and Never heard of the rest. How can their name be mentioned along with the greats??? If we allow this to happen every sitar-player accessing internet will add his or her name in the list for cheap publicity.

Harmonium

I'm no expert, but it's my understanding that harmoniums are not used in Hindustani classical music because its Western (equal-tempered) scale doesn't allow for the microtonal inflections which are key to the musicological system. All other instruments on the list either make no discrete pitch separations (i.e. fretless string instruments) or somehow allow for meend (glissando) (bending a sitar string down, rolling fingers off the stops on a shenai, etc.). Harmoniums are certainly used in various folk music forms present in India such as Qawwali and Kirtan, but my understanding is that they're far more accepted in more Persian-influenced styles. From the wiki harmonium entry: "The harmonium is essentially an alien instrument to the Indian tradition, as it cannot mimic the voice, which is considered the basis of all Indian music. Meend (glissando), an integral part of any classical recitation is not possible on the harmonium, and as such, one cannot faithfully reproduce the subtle nuances of a raga on this instrument. The harmonium is thus despised by many connoisseurs of Indian music, who prefer the more authentic yet more technical sarangi, in accompanying khyal singing." I will remove the harmonium from the wind instruments listed under "instrumental music", unless a more informed person can correct my impression and/or cite an example of harmonium in Hindustani classical performance. Also, can anyone cite reference of either banjo or piano being used in Hindustani classical? Those examples also seem suspect to me, for the same reason.

According to Soumik Datta, there is also a purist, conservative, anti-Western movement which rejects the harmonium and reluctantly accepts the violin, as a good imitator of the human voice. I think this conservatism is stronger in Carnatic than in Hindustani music. FangoFuficius (talk) 12:04, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree with @FangoFuficius on this one as well. Many contemporary Hindustani classical musicians (and even those of the latter half of the 20th century) took up harmonium players as accompaniment (can't speak to dhrupad, to be fair). Sarangi accompaniment has lessened as a result of such. I'd be happy to provide you with examples if need be. AGaiki (talk) 06:04, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Hindustani music is not just "Hindu"stani.... Sikh Gurbani also shares a lot

This article makes it sound like Hindustani Classical is more about "Hindu"stani classical....There is some mention of Muslim rulers but more than 20 million people in the world who follow the Sikh Religion, also sing their praises to God in Hindustani music, and there is so much (for example, a few Ragas) in the "Gurbani Music" which is exclusive or was started in Gurbani Music. Granted, the Gurbani Music is "only" 500 years old, but limit of the reviewer's knowledge about it should not be the reason to exclude any mention of it from this article. Unfortunately I do not know enough about Gurbani Music myself to edit the article myself but i hope someone reads my post and finds more about it to add to the knowledge base on wiki.

We must understand that Music is neither a religion nor a philosophy. Ancient words like Gaandharva or Gaana are used for all music in India, classical as well as folk, and for musical genres used by all religious sects, as well as for secular purposes. Only the Vedic chants were kept apart in ancient India, as a genre of musicn and as it was made into a separate art form for the simple reason that the ancients did not want people to associate vedic sounds and svaras to be associated with mundance feelings. Gurbani, or any other bani or any bhakti sect is as classical and hindustani or hindusthani in the sense that it belongs to Hindustaan. The primary difference between northern and southern music is not of grammar as they both follow the 12 note system deveoped in India in medieval times,but the difference is of alankaras and gamakas which are embellishments.Bharat Gupt (talk) 07:40, 23 July 2013 (UTC)Prof Bharat Gupt

Exactly as is said beneath this section, Gurbanis which belong to the Bhajan genre, are definitely not classical music. They inhabit a region somewhere between the semi-classical - folk music categories in the Indian music spectrum.

All Songs/ padas in the Gurbani are put into serious classical ragas and they were sung in medieval times in the Dhruvapada style. Infact some singers still do that who have that training. Music if sung with depth and in Raga expansion is classical. Classical and folk is a European disctinction IT IS NOT INDIAN. No musicological text of India written before the British period has these two terms defined as separate entities.Bharat Gupt (talk) 07:40, 23 July 2013 (UTC)Prof Bharat Gupt

There is nothing specifically "Hindu"stani about this article. As a matter of fact, I personally added several names to the list, mostly Muslim - the Dagars (Fariduddin, Wasifuddin, Moinuddin, etc.)

Classical Indian music (I mean GENUINE classical) is Hindu in origin. That is a simple fact. They were performed in temples until around the time of the early Mughals whence they were gradually assimilated into the courts, where they were influenced by Persian music.

Thus, if we have left out anything Muslim/Persian aspects that are GENUINELY classical, let us know. Bhajans, and "Gurbani music" are definitely not acceptable for inclusion here, even if they are 500 years old. Why "Gurbani music"? Odissi music is twice as old (heard of the Gita Govinda?) and considered as a deeper form of semi-classical music, but is not being included here.

SDas 23:46, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

bhajan and Ghazal not classical

bhajan and ghazal are not classical. They can be mentioned as having classical influence. The whole paragraph about bhajan needs to be definately deleted. Not all bhajan is even semi-classical. The maharashtrian saints in the varakari parampara have nothing to do with classical hindustani music.

Also, somebody who knows the subject needs to write about the history. Saamveda was the earliest mention we know of music but that does not mean hindustani developed from Saamagaayana. That is just an effort to show off the long tradition of Indian classical. --Kaveri 20:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Bhajans and Ghazals needs to be fully removed. This article should contain only Dhrupad and Khayal from the Hindustani side (besides Carnatic). SDas 23:48, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for removing the paragraph on bhajans. In my opinion, ghazals should go too. Ghazals are not really classical either.

Also, the list of musicians is really too much. We should restrict the list. Sitar for instance should have only Vilayat Khan and Ravi Shankar, and perhaps 1-2 more. Bansuri should have only Chaurasia, Sarod only Ali Akbar Khan, Amjad Ali Khan etc. etc. Such a huge list adds no value to the article.

Once the list is trimmed down, I can add some dhrupadiyas too. That section lacks any list of musicians. SDas 05:16, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you should go ahead and edit it and may be leave a note on the talk page explaining what you did.

I hesitated to delete ghazal because in Pakistan that it is the route performers have taken to keep alive Classical music. So in a way it is like thumri. --Kaveri 19:05, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I think Ghazal should go. It is not really classical. (If Ghazals are included, then why not Qawwalis?)

SDas 20:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC) although many a times Ghazals are note sung in pure ragas, the great ghazal singers were/are all trained classical singers who base the ghazals on hindustani classical ragas. So removing ghazals altogether is not right. One must difinetely state that ghazals, bhajans and other lyrics are also sung in ragas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.85.193.2 (talk) 05:41, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Vocal Music

At present the vocal music section has too may names listed one after the other. Can we make ir more readable by arranging the names chronologically for eg. From the older generation following are the famous singers.... . x, y, z are the new generation singers. or somethng to that effect. Also, we can arrange them according to Gharana and their speciality like Thumri, Dhrupad etc. Can somebody more knowledgeable about all gharanas or all the performers try to rearrange the names. Just listing is of no value and also people keep adding names if it is just a list. --Kaveri 16:00, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that the list is way too long. A lot of those names I haven't heard of. We need not keep all the names.

Since I am only familiar with Dhrupad, I can arrange the Dhrupad musicians based on Gharana. (which is easy as they are mostly all Dagar!)

I also suggest having them arranged alphabetically. Maybe I'll take a first shot at it here.

ISSUE-1: Dhrupad can be both instrumental as well as vocal, although vocal is far more common. The way it is written, Dhrupad is a subsection under vocal only. Any suggestions?

ISSUE-2: Don't instrumentalists also play thumri? Vilayat Khan, Bismillah Khan, Vishamohan Bhatt, etc. do certainly have played thumris. Must those be sub-categories come under vocal music also?

ISSUE-3: Will the list of musicians only be restricted to current musicians, or will we include historical figures like Baiju Bawra, Baba Behram Khan Dagar, and Tansen?

(We can add another column to the table below called "Era" which can be "current", or "20^th century" or "circa. 1850" etc.)

ISSUE-4: Since in Dhrupad, Vanis are more accepted schools, not Gharanas, I replaced the last column in the table below with "School", and added Vani or Gharana to each entry.

SDas 21:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Suggested arrangement of major artists

Artist	Instrument	Genre	School
Vishva Mohan Bhatt	Mohan Veena	Khayal	Maihar Gharānā
Uday Bhawalkar	Vocal	Dhrupad	Dāgar Vāni
Debu Chaudhury	Sitar	Khayal	Senia Gharānā
Bahauddin Dagar	Rudra Veena	Dhrupad	Dāgar Vāni
Zia Mohiuddin Dagar	Rudra Veena	Dhupad	Dāgar Vāni
Akhilesh Gundechā	Pakhāwaj	Dhrupad	Dāgar Vāni
Ramakant Gundechā	Vocal	Dhrupad	Dāgar Vāni
Umakant Gundechā	Vocal	Dhrupad	Dāgar Vāni
Ali Akbar Khan	Sarod	Khayal	Maihar Gharānā
Allauddin Khan	Sarod	Khayal	Maihar
Bade Ghulam Ali Khan	Vocal	Thumri	Patiala Gharānā
Hafiz Khan	Vocal	Dhrupad	Talwandi Gharānā (Khandar Vāni)
Imrat Khan	Sitar	Khayal	Imdadkhani Gharānā
Vilayat Khan	Sitar	Khayal	Imdadkhani Gharānā
Nancy Lesh	Cello	Dhrupad	Dāgar Vāni
Ram Chatur Mallick	Vocal	Dhrupad	Darbhangā Gharānā (Gohar Vāni)
Vidur Mallick	Vocal	Dhrupad	Darbhangā Gharānā (Gohar Vāni)
Indrakishore Mishra	Vocal	Dhrupad	Khandar Vāni
Bholanath Pathak	Vocal	Dhrupad	Betia Gharānā
Anil Pathak	Surbahar	Dhrupad	Pathak Gharānā
Ritwik Sanyal	Vocal	Dhrupad	Dāgar Vāni
Raja Chhatrapati Singh	Pakhāwaj	Dhrupad	Dāgar Vāni
Mian Tansen	Vocal	Dhrupad	Gohar Vāni

NOTE: ARRANGED ALPHABETICALLY BY LAST NAME. FIRST NAME USED IF LAST NAME IS THE SAME.

If you agree to this tabular arrangement, please insert more musicians into it!!

SDas 21:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Taus (musical instrument)

Need article on the Taus (musical instrument). Badagnani (talk) 08:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

List Of Dhrupad Musicans and Vedic Tales

Why is Ritwik Sanyal named with the greats in your list? Yes he did learn from Zia Mohiuddin Dagar, but he is very far from their musical skills. Then why not put everyone on the list? Though I agree that Dhrupad is part of Hindustani music, it has its own page where one can go into greater detail.The site needs to get away from its focus on Hinduism, trying to explain a vedic origin and all.Sikhs , Muslims and Buddhists and Jains practice Hindustani classical music alike which is why this page was named Hindustani music and not Indian classical music.Some parts of this wiki are like straight out of Ritwik Sanyals book which is very right wing /rss/hindutva type in my eyes.I think this kind of politics have nothing to do with what Hindustani music really stands for.

List of Performers

I've noticed the list of 'prominent performers' as well as the section under instrumentalists, although there is absolutely no reason or context given for these placements. I'd like to suggest removing it as it is entirely un-encyclopedic. The relevant names would still be in the older revisions if someone wants to work those names into the body of the text of this article in a meaningful way. I'll wait on comment from other editors, however. Jacotto (talk) 03:26, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

So presumably this page should be deleted as well? 24.1.31.69 (talk) 03:37, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

No, that is a list page. If someone wants to put them into the List of Hindustani/ North Indian music composers page, that is fine. As is, it was a wall of names with no meaningful addition to the article itself. Jacotto (talk) 04:32, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

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Unclear portion

This passage from the "Khyal" section of the article has an untranslated quotation, followed by a passage of running text that doesn't illuminate it much, ad I don't see what relevance the quotation has except that it mentions three important names in Hindustani music. I decided to move it here for others to decide on its relevance. A. Parrot (talk) 01:41, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

“ Kaisku Marwa Jaayal Hamaraa

More darawa nayan ghar kan warahe,

Mohammad Shah ke Sadarangile, Prem Piya la Chapate Apne, Huntara Tana Mana Waarune - Mohammad Shah

”

This khyal bandish in raga Bibhas was popularized by D.V. Paluskar. It is interesting how this bandish mentions three names — Mohammad Shah, Sadarang, and Prem Piya.

Doubt on Khyal

When Khyal is said to be "a two- to eight-line lyric set to a melody" & "is based on improvising and expressing emotion", shouldnt it be a combined form of singing as well as lyrics? Means, doesnt the way you sing it along with the lyrics you sing together form a Khyal? -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 15:42, 12 October 2011 (UTC

Error in date The origination of Khyal is controversial, although it is accepted that this style was based on Dhrupad and influenced by Persian music. Many argue that Amir Khusrau created the style in the late 16th century. IT SHOULD BE LATE 13TH CENTURY.

The article requires to be simplified

The article requires to be simplified and structured or else a "hindustani classical for dummies" should be released. List of popular Hindustani classical's and its genre should be given for a newbie's understanding - At least the Vocal part of it. The article seems to be bourgeoisie, more technical and express' differences in schools rather than codifying it with encyclopedic standards.117.215.192.236 (talk) 07:52, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

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Proposal to move the page.

I am proposing to move the page to Hindustani music.

1. The article goes on to mention "Ghazals" and "Thumris" (which are not "classical") that fall under light Hindustani music.
2. The article Carnatic Music is a good example. Its heading is accurate!

-Sattvic7 (talk) 16:53, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

MOS:India

@Dāsānudāsa: From MOS:INDIA

Subject matter covered

This standard is recommended for use in articles in the following fields;

• Towns, cities, districts, states, protected areas and all other places within the political boundary of India.
• All companies, organisations and factories which have their headquarters located in India.
• All persons who are born in modern India (or British India before the 1947 Partition of India and Pakistan) or have taken citizenship of India.
• Historical articles and historical place names of India, including especially history prior to 1800.

Can you specify which one of these you believe this article fits under? --पदाति (talk) 09:48, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

From MOS:INDICSCRIPT: "This avoidance of Indic scripts only applies to articles that are predominantly India-related and is excluded from, among others, articles about Hinduism, Buddhism, or any of India's neighbouring countries. It is a divergence from the usual practice of including non-Latin script in leads when it is arguably relevant (e.g. "Athens ... Greek: Αθήνα ..." at the article Athens)."

This article is a) Quite clearly "predominantly India-related" and b) Not about Hinduism, Buddhism or specifically about a neighbouring country. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 14:07, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

That doesn't override the overall scope of the MOS page. Moreover, that list of exceptions is not exhaustive. --पदाति (talk) 00:00, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

I think we need a third opinion, because in my experience Devanagari is avoided everywhere other than articles about the Indian religions. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 09:29, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: India in Global Studies

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— Assignment last updated by Adirrao (talk) 22:05, 17 May 2023 (UTC)