Talk:Fritz Haarmann

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Untitled[edit]

Resolved

– The mentioned errors have been corrected.

It has never been proved that Haarmaan did actually eat his victims. He had been well known in Hannover for selling meat at low price, but also it never has been proved that it was the flesh of his victims.

Even though Hanover in German is written with a double-n, in English, it is not.

In this Text: "From 1919 to 1924, Haarmann committed at least 24 murders,"

but in the German and Netherland articles it is written, that he started to murder at 1918!--DanielMrakic 09:10, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's 27 names listed on the memorial-thing @ http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Hannover_cemetery_stoecken_grave_Fritz_Haarmann_victims.jpg Also please notice that they've left some space on the stone for a few more names. Coincidental?

The third paragraph of this article states that Haarmann was beheaded, but in the context of the rest of the paragraph that is not possible.

He was caught when the police began to recieve complaints that articles of clothing being worn and sold by Haarmaan once belonged to the missing people that were traced to Haarmaan. Proof that he did sell his victims' possessions to the public. One could easly come to the conclusion that he also sold their meat. Otherwise, to where did their bodies disappear? The blood splatter and constant chopping, heard by neighbors, would also provde evidece to this theory.

starred in a minor role[edit]

Resolved

– user has edited article according to comments

"Rainer Werner Fassbinder also starred in a minor role" -- one cannot "star" in a "minor role." RWF was producer of "Tenderness of the Wolves," which is probably better worth a mention than his cameo appearance in the film. I am making changes in this regard. 67.232.140.2 (talk) 22:21, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Execution method[edit]

Resolved

– see discussion below

Was he beheaded with use of guillotine or an axe? Darth Kalwejt 18:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The German article on him claims it was done by guillotine. Jokl (talk) 11:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In Germany, since the second half at least of the 19th century, "beheading" as a method of execution invariably means the guillotine, and was actually the usual method of non-military execution (the Nazis introduced hanging for those they wanted to ostracize even more, which before 1944 or 1945 or so was applied only rarely; the GDR changed to "unexpected shot from backwards at near range" in the 1960s).--131.159.76.185 (talk) 13:08, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The article now clarifies the precise method. In fact, Haarmann (unsuccessfully) requested his execution be filmed.--Kieronoldham (talk) 20:21, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hans Grans[edit]

After serving his sentence, Hans Grans continued to live in Hanover until his death in 1975.

The German Wikipedia claims that Grans, who was sentenced to 12 years in prison in 1926, was kept in concentration camps from 1937 to 1945, i.e. longer than his sentence. Unfortunately they don't provide a source, but if true, this fact should be added. Nazi victims are not only those who were completely innocent... --Ibn Battuta (talk) 20:34, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Trivia?[edit]

Comic-book[edit]

Kreitz, Isabel; Meter, Peer (2010) Haarmann

Isabel Kreitz is awarded multiple times. http://www.goethe.de/ins/ke/en/nai/kul/mag/com/20543470.html --Hienafant (talk) 21:45, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Resolved

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External links modified[edit]

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Some sources[edit]

Mordlust. Serienmorde, Gewalt und Emotionen im 20. Jahrhundert, by Kerstin Brückweh, is important.^[1] There's an essay on the case by Kathrin Kompisch in Repräsentationen von Kriminalität und öffentlicher Sicherheit (eds. Karl Harter/Gerhard Salter/Eva Wiebel, 2010).^[2] Maria Tatar's Lustmord:Sexual Murder in Weimar Germany treats Haarmann.^[3] There are plenty more reviews of books that discuss the case. More relevant, perhaps, here are individual studies, the most useful and recent of which is probably by Joshua Kavaloski, who BTW refers to Lessing's book as "reliable". And that article (that I skimmed, a bit) will also provide useful information on some of the "legacy" (that he figures in Berlin Alexanderplatz, for instance).^[4] Sorry, there's more there, but I gotta go. Drmies (talk) 22:02, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Hett, Benjamin Carter (2008). "Reviewed Work(s): Mordlust. Serienmorde, Gewalt und Emotionen im 20. Jahrhundert by Kerstin Brückweh". Central European History. 41: 531–533.
^ Scheutz, Martin (2011). "Reviewed Work(s): Repräsentationen von Kriminalität und öffentlicher Sicherheit: Bilder,Vorstellungen und Diskurse vom 16. bis zum 20. Jahrhundert by Karl Härter, Gerhard Sälter and Eva Wiebel". VSWG: Vierteljahrschrift für Sozial- und Wirtschaftsgeschichte. 98 (1): 96–97.
^ Rothmaler, Christiane (1996). "Reviewed Work(s): Lustmord: Sexual Murder in Weimar Germany by Maria Tatar". Journal of the History of Sexuality. 7 (2): 297–299.
^ Kavaloski, Joshua (2015). "The Haarmann Case: Remapping the Weimar Republic". The German Quarterly. 88 (2): 219–241.

Clarification or correction needed: "honorary rights of citizenship"[edit]

The second paragraph in the lead section makes the nonsensical claim that Haarmann's "honorary rights of citizenship" were revoked after his conviction.

The term "honorary rights of citizenship" either requires clarification or correction.

As far as I'm aware, "honorary rights of citizenship" is not a recognised term in English. I can also not find it mentioned in any native (!) English resources.

While there does appear to be a term called "honorary rights", this sits within the context of Roman Catholic canon law (see Jus patronatus). Therefore it is distinct from citizenship law/rights and irrelevant to this context.

I also considered whether the author had meant to say that Haarmann's "honorary citizenship" had been revoked. However, given Haarmann's history it appears unlikely that he had not been born with German citizenship – and even more improbable that he had been granted German honorary citizenship at any point in his life.

Unfortunately the German version of this article does not provide any further clarification on this wording issue. In fact, the German version does not appear to mention neither the German words for "revocation" nor "citizenship".

Is it possible the author meant to say: "Haarman's civil rights were revoked" after his conviction? If so, this leads to the next issue -> see separate talk page item: "in accordance with German practice". Mongrelmusings (talk) 01:44, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification and citation needed: " in accordance with German practice"[edit]

Resolved

The second paragraph in the lead section states that Haarmann's "honorary rights of citizenship" were revoked "in accordance with German practice".

Once the issues surrounding the term "honorary rights of citizenship" have been resolved (see separate talk page item above), further clarification is needed as to what "German practice" is being referred to here.

What is this "German practice" exactly?

And was it solely a German practice during the Weimar Republic?

Or has it has lasted through to the present (thereby being present in Weimar Republic, Nazi Germany and today's Federal Republic)?

Whatever the answer is – it will also require citations. Mongrelmusings (talk) 01:54, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am sure it is, at least loosely, mentioned in the Monsters of Weimar book (obv. itself translated from German originally). Have not read it for eight or more years (156+ pages). I believe it sources from these edits from August 2018. The editor (I'm assuming a German individual), cites "Bürgerliche Ehrenrechte" as his/her outline for these adjustments? What do you think, Mongrelmusings?--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:06, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks you very much for your response, as well as for digging through the edit history! Upon clicking on your link to to the outline, I sadly can't detect the mention of "Bürgerliche Ehrenrechte".

However, knowing that it might have been the original term does help somewhat! According to bpb (Germany's "Federal Agency for Civic Education", source link below) and the German Wikipedia page on "Bürgerliche Ehrenrechte", the term describes a German citizen's right to vote, to be elected, and to carry out certain public (voluntary) duties.

Now – to get us closer to an accurate translation, we could do with someone well-versed in law to confirm whether all of these rights fall under civil rights...

BpB source: https://www.bpb.de/kurz-knapp/lexika/politiklexikon/17381/ehrenrechte-buergerliche/ Mongrelmusings (talk) 02:30, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No worries, Mongrelmusings. The actual edit description from the editor in question is here (in between the revisions within the link I prv. added). Unless you know whom or where to take this query I think we may be in for a very long wait for this area of observation and concern to be resolved on this article. Maybe we should resolve this somehow ourselves?--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:43, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you see it correctly, you have meanwhile simply deleted the sentence discussed in this and the preceding section? I think that's a good solution – considering that he was executed, it hardly matters much if he lost his voting rights for the few months prior to that. Gawaon (talk) 18:41, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did ping the user who tagged the lede section, Gawaon, but got no reply after three or so days, so I assume that the issue was to be left for someone "well-versed" in contemporary German law to address. It is hardly pertinent info. to the case itself anyhow. As I said prv., I would be very surprised if anyone would bother addressing the issue for a very long time.--Kieronoldham (talk) 22:42, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great to see this is resolved now! Agree that this is the most pragmatic solution. Thanks to both of you for your efforts on this, @Kieronoldham and @Gawaon! I'll tag the original comment as resolved, so as to help future visitors navigate the talk page better. Mongrelmusings (talk) 00:40, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Hett, Benjamin Carter (2008). "Reviewed Work(s): Mordlust. Serienmorde, Gewalt und Emotionen im 20. Jahrhundert by Kerstin Brückweh". Central European History. 41: 531–533.

[2] Scheutz, Martin (2011). "Reviewed Work(s): Repräsentationen von Kriminalität und öffentlicher Sicherheit: Bilder,Vorstellungen und Diskurse vom 16. bis zum 20. Jahrhundert by Karl Härter, Gerhard Sälter and Eva Wiebel". VSWG: Vierteljahrschrift für Sozial- und Wirtschaftsgeschichte. 98 (1): 96–97.

[3] Rothmaler, Christiane (1996). "Reviewed Work(s): Lustmord: Sexual Murder in Weimar Germany by Maria Tatar". Journal of the History of Sexuality. 7 (2): 297–299.

[4] Kavaloski, Joshua (2015). "The Haarmann Case: Remapping the Weimar Republic". The German Quarterly. 88 (2): 219–241.

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