Talk:Nikolai Medtner

Spelling of his name

Why is there a D in his surname in English? In the Russian (and he was Russian) it's just METHEP (Metner). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.56.26.1 (talk) 21:43, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, I guess there are two answers. One is that the name is German, not Russian. The other is that it is how Medtner spelled his name in the roman alphabet. JBritnell (talk) 03:28, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Skazka

Hrm. On the one hand, fairy-tale is the usual translation at least with Medtner and especially with op 25/2. I do note that Rimsky's Skazka is at least sometimes translated as Legend; I believe Tozer suggests translating the Medtner (and the other works he gave this title, both the Russian Round-Dance and the (two dozen or so? Need to check that worklist) various solo-piano Skazki) as either Folk-Tales, Legends or Ballades (the latter is the Dover edition's choice, I see). (It's true he already calls concerto 3 and the sonata op 27 ballades anyway...)

-- (continuation) In part because (they say, I tend to agree?--) fairy-tale seems to imply certain associations and temperament and these works generally differ from those expectations. Thoughts? Schissel : bowl listen 03:35, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Is the solution to this to get in touch with a Russian Wikipedian who speaks English (or an English Wikipedian who speaks Russian), and ask? Or at least someone who can understand the Russian entry on Medtner? I found the Russian entry and added a ref. to it; does that help? --RobertG 11:20, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Oops, I notice that's not Medtner - that's Nikolai Petrovich Wagner - :-( will revert... Above comment about Russian speaker still stands, though! I'm new to this, and assumed there would be a Russian page on Medtner! --RobertG 11:24, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It gets a bit more complicated. Medtner felt that the best translation of the term, and his own preference, was the German word "Marchen", which has no exact equivalent in English. His wife was the one who suggested "Faerie Tale" for the English publication. Skazka is the singular, btw, and skazki is the plural. As for Medtner's standing in Russia, he was always considered one of the three great composers of the 20th century, ranked alongside Rachmaninov and Scriabin. So the absence of a Russian article is puzzling. -Mhare40

Somewhere in Holt's book there's a passage saying that when in England, Medtner stipulated that the Skazki should always be called "Tales" and not "Legends" or "Fairy Tales". I'll amend the article. Galltywenallt 10:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Recordings of "Complete Piano Works"

I'm now wondering whether the claims made for Tozer and Milne are strictly correct. Google suggests they've both recorded the complete piano sonatas and sundry other works, but I can't find corroboration that all the piano works without exception were recorded by either. Does anybody know for certain? JackofOz 00:21, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about the delay. I believe Tozer is working on it, anyway, but don't think he's done. No, I don't think this is true of Milne. I'll look into it. Hopefully the German worklist page is reasonably accurate, but thankfully there's a (well.. also hopefully reasonably accurate) complete works edition here at the university library lacking only a volume or two. Though a newer scholarly edition is always good to have in existence- I wonder if one is in progress? Schissel-nonLop! 18:28, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I met Tozer a couple of years ago through a mutual friend, who told me that he (Tozer) had just recently completed recording the complete works. Either that was an exaggeration, or maybe he really has recorded them but they've not been released yet. Either way, as far as the world is concerned, until they are released, it seems the "complete works" claim is premature. JackofOz 20:26, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Hrm. In Tozer's case I'll check to see what he's released at the Chandos site, at least. (Someone's going to drop in and tell me that someone else recorded all of them for some more obscure label decades ago. I just know it. Even though this isn't Fanfare magazine...) Ok. 8 volumes of solo piano works released on Chandos, including the following works - opp 1, 2, 7, 8, 10/2 (vol 4), 14/1, 17, 20, 23, 26, 26/3 spec., 31/1-3 (no. 1 on vol. 3), 34/2, 38, 39, 40, 42/1, 47, 48/1, 49, 51, 51/1 spec., 54, 54/3 spec., 55, 59 (and parts of opp 10 and 48 are on vol. 7), Fairy Tale from 1915, and all the sonatas I believe. Hrm. Comparing that against the page http://www.russisches-musikarchiv.de/werkverzeichnisse/medtner-werkverzeichnis.htm

the early works (1896-odd) such as Marche funèbre are lacking, as are some others more nearly contemporary with the opp 1, 2 etc. (op. 4, Vier Stücke isn't present yet either, nor op. 9?, and I'm not sure all three of the op. 10 are in the series, or where the other op. 14 is. Op.26 isn't listed on that page, op.29 is lieder and so is probably a typo when it's listed in the piano section there- they're both vier märchen (see http://www.chandos.net/details05.asp?CNumber=CHAN%209899) (maybe there's a volume or two more to go, indeed...) Schissel-nonLop! 00:48, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Further evidence that the worklist page is accurate (that's not always so) and that op. 29 is lieder- several of the op. 29 songs are included, so identified, on a (now-deleted) EMI set (die Muse op 29/1 and die Rose op 29/6) of the Composers in Person series (Schwarzkopf sings them in English, by the way. And unsurprisingly very well- same can be said for Medtner's piano playing, I believe some of the recordings in that set are still available somewhere. Maybe in the APR series. I think one of the Chandos recordings of Medtner songs - not the Goethe-lieder sets, these are German translations of Pushkin - may have these songs also. A brief motive from op 29/1 was quoted in the piano quintet and op 27- or the other way around- as often noted.) Schissel | Sound the Note! 01:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Not sure about Milne: I think he did intend to record all the solo piano works but I heard a rumour that the CRD series had ran into problems. Perhaps this is why he recently recorded all the Fairy Tales on Hyperion. Can't add anything on Tozer except to confirm that there are gaps in his currently available output. I've amended the sentence anyway. BTW I've listed all recordings on CD that I'm aware of on www.medtner.org.uk - please email me if you know of any others. Galltywenallt 11:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Piano Quintet

The article currently claims that the Piano Quintet (Op. post.) has never been commercially released. A Google search finds a Naxos recording: http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.553390 CraigMiloRogers 06:26, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

*blink* I don't know who put that in; I know also of two or three other fairly recent (-ly released, in the case of the Russian Disc) recordings (on Hyperion, and on Russian Disc), one of which (on Russian Disc- Svetlanov/Borodin Quartet) I've been listening to many times in the last few weeks (I think it's a great work, besides being literally song-filled, quoting several other works of his extensively and effectively- the Pushkin songs 'The Muse' and 'The Rose' - and ending with a finale in which a march appears twice in a way that's not very common (not unknown...) in Medtner, I think? - the opus 25/1 sonata with its variations-on-a-march finale does come to mind but the effect is almost the opposite.

The sonate-vocalise, now, that I expect could use a modern recording; it's had one on LP, maybe one on CD but I'm not aware of one. But that's a different beast. Schissel | Sound the Note! 18:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The Ritchie/Medtner Sonata Vocalise is available on CD on the St-Laurent label.

I believe the article is referring to the recording of the quintet that Medtner himself made in the last year of his life. Mhare40 02:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Correct. A few years ago Testament planned to release it on CD, coupled with a transfer of Medtner's recording of the Piano Concerto no. 1. This has not come to fruition.\

It's not just that he sketched it out in 1903 and worked on it through 1948. He actually finished the first movement, according to Martyn's biography, in or around 1903, and worked on the rest of the work in the intervening decades (perhaps revising the first movement- but the first movement did exist as a complete movement as early as the first decade!) ELSchissel (talk) 02:16, 28 November 2020 (UTC) (there are at least one, I think, transfers of the Medtner/Aeolian Quartet recording now - one is on the St Laurent Studio label, but possibly others too.)

To be picky, antepenultimate year. 1949, not 1950. He died in 1951. ELSchissel (talk) 02:37, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is a weak B; it has a decent factual basis, but can use more. It also suffers from some structural defects. Read my detailed review on the comments page; questions or comments can be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 21:25, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Inconsistencies, too (e.g. Sonata romantica "premiered in 1931" but written "1931-2" - maybe premiered in an early version but revised, but that would need to be made clear... Schissel | Sound the Note! 14:54, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I wouldn't mind some clarity here. Especially since the sonata romantica, iirc, was the one sonata of his premiered in the USA (the composer in attendance), according to Martyn (Nicolas Medtner: His Life and Music)? ELSchissel (talk) 02:39, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

NPOV and other matters

Whether Medtner’s music makes inroads into the wider repertoire or remains the territory of a few performers and listeners depends on whether it is true that he sacrificed melodic interest, beauty, and communicativeness (or enough of them) on the altar of complexity, the sonata form, and counterpoint [who is making this claim?]. Nonetheless, it is undeniable that Medtner possessed considerable skill in writing heartfelt melody of rare beauty and an uncanny skill in developing thematic material [this is in opposition to the previous sentence]. Imbued with a restless quality that demands repeated listenings to penetrate [source?], Medtner's music often has a psychologically intense, almost demonic character. The piano works in particular are notoriously difficult to sight-read and require enormous technical and intellectual resources to perform [needs source]. Yet Medtner's best melodies [such as?] speak to the listener on a direct emotional level [source?]. It may be [weasel words] that some of his works are better advocates for him in this respect—his songs and concertos are more directly communicative than the solo piano music, the violin sonatas more extroverted [source?]—but it is also true that his music is now that of a cult composer, at least in reputation and possibly in fact. [Source?]

The above needs to be revised. --Toccata quarta (talk) 11:42, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I have been bold and removed the whole paragraph.—Toccata quarta (talk) 15:30, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Nikolai Medtner/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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==Composers Project Assessment of Nikolai Medtner: 2008-12-6== This is an assessment of article Nikolai Medtner by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? ok ===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? ok, but it's hard to tell when he started composing and what his early compositions were (an indication of who in his education would be formative in developing composition skills) ===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? ok ===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. List appears to be incomplete; link to external (Medtner Society) complete listing. ===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? Mostly good. See summary. ===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) No sound or images. Recordings by that are reasonably available (or the historical ones, of none are currently available) should be identified. Desirable would be fair-use clips from that kind of source. ===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article identifies a variety of sources, in a way that I am not certain is WP:MOS-compliant. (A bulleted list using {{cite book}} would be preferred, describing the references either in sentences preceding the bullet, or in the bullet following the template.) There are no inline citations. ===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) The lead is short for an article this long; 2-3 paragraphs. ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) Article needs (more) images and/or other media (MOS:IMAGE) Article prose needs work (WP:MOS) ===Summary=== This article, in spite of its faults, managed to interest me in its subject. However, the writing is of a relatively poor caliber; it appears as if things have been cut and pasted at times arbitrarily. The biography at times wanders; the second and third sentence are notably out of place; they either belong in the lead, or in the Music section. The list of works I'm guessing is incomplete (i.e. listing only notable works); a separate article with the complete list would be good. The detailed discussion of his works is admirable, but better placed in another article (e.g. Music of Nikolai Medtner, or even more elaborate articles about each notable work individually). His music is stylistically reasonably well-described. While it seems clear that he had some financial success as primarily a composer, we do not get a good sense of his popularity or critical reception, and (if he was in fact popular before his death) why it faded afterward, especially in the light of the existence of the Medtner Society. While the article says he taught, there is no indication that he taught anyone notable, or if he taught under the auspices of e.g. an academic institution. The article's formatting also needs some work. The lead is short for an article of this length. The Legacy is best placed before the list of works. The article's references should use a more standardized form, like {{cite book}}. It is not necessary to describe in detail what the reference contains, unless the work is itself in some way worthy of note. There are no inline citations, which are not much of an issue given that the prose needs work; however, and editor would do well to add them as they improve the prose, if possible. There are also no images. Perhaps the Medtner Society can be convinced to authorize some images (and maybe even some media samples, if it holds copyrights to recordings) for use here. I give this article a weak B rating; there is much to do. Magic♪piano 21:22, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 21:22, 6 December 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 01:18, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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Makushina

We don't have an article, but full name apparently Tatiana Alexandrovna Makushina (Татьяна Александровна Макушина) (b.1895 and/or d.1961?). Sources on the net seem to conflict; Russian-domain sources getting increasingly hacked besides, so goes. Schissel | Sound the Note! 04:47, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

(See VIAF 79812209 e.g.) ELSchissel (talk) 02:43, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Further re composer recordings

There have been several issues of the composer's recordings of his own music over the years. Melodiya in 2014 started a series (with volume 1 on MELCD1002200) for example. (On that disc can be found the mentioned recording of the Tragica, Op.39 No.5 - 10 minutes, briefer than most other recordings?... - and a number of other works: e.g. the two tales Op.20 complete and other sets excerpted.) Volume 2 of this series contains the 3 piano concertos and the sonate-ballade (see OCLC 903286497.) At least per Worldcat the Melodiya CD series seems to have not proceeded further as of February 2017. An earlier series on Appian Publications & Recordings (APR, Hexham, Northumberland) of the composer's complete solo recordings - his own music and that of others - reached three volumes, starting with a disc of Beethoven Op.57 (and assorted works of Medtner's own : OCLC 912900128), a second disc featuring Medtner's first violin sonata amidst other HMV recordings from 1936 and 1946 (OCLC 44751053), and a 3rd disc of "unpublished" 1947 recordings (not quite true perhaps, since it seems that according to Medtner.org.uk, some of these performances on disc 3 - eg. the selfsame Op.39 No.5 sonata mentioned earlier- were for example already on (rare) LPs from Melodiya (M10-41169).) ...) Medtner.org.uk seems to have a good (maybe not ultra-up-to-date? but good) discography... Schissel | Sound the Note! 03:12, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Marriage / Anna

The section about this is unclear. Especially the sentence "Medtner and Anna were married in 1918." Which Medtner? After what has just been said, it should specify whether it means he or his brother, and further explanation would be helpful.--Ericjs (talk) 20:38, 11 January 2022 (UTC)