Talk:Dave Van Ronk

Discussion

Q. Where can I find any of Dave Van Ronk's managers? A. Ron Shelley is listed as manager on Dave Van Ronk (Polydor) album. ronshelleyis@yahoo.com

And here's I was waiting for a punchline -- "In the RonksMuseum", or something. -- TimNelson 05:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

A2. His first wife Terri Thal was his (and Dylan's) booking manager @ the start of their professional careers. Albert Grossman wanted to sign Van Ronk, but he didn't wanna be marketed as freak / viking / or bartitone in Peter Paul & Mary. DVR was also managed by Mitchell Greenhill and New England based FolkLore Productions at the end of his careerJohn.T.Buck (talk) 03:17, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Q. Could add that he is interviewed and memorable in Martin Scorcese's Dylan documentary. Jgrudin (talk) 10:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)Jonathan Grudin

Q. Where is there proof Van Ronk played piano? John.T.Buck (talk) 03:17, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

COVER ART

I seem to vaguely recall that Dave Van Ronk did the artwork on the cover of Joan Baez's first album. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.213.209 (talk) 19:34, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

That would seem unlikely considering that Van Ronk had little to do with the Boston/Cambridge folk scene at the time, appears scarcely (if at all) to have known Joan Baez, and is not known to be an artist (although he was an art collector). You may be confusing Van Ronk with Eric Von Schmidt, who was considered in folk music the Boston/Cambridge analogue of Van Ronk and who was well known as an illustrator. TheScotch (talk) 08:29, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

POV?

The second half of this article seems less scholarly and more like a fan web site... {Anon. entry January 2005)

Greenwich Village residence

The career section has him "speaking fondly of his impending return to Greenwich Village" suggesting he did not live there at the time (why would he say that if he was just on a trip?), but the personal characteristics section says "he declined to ever move from Greenwich Village". Can someone clear this up? --Blainster 21:35, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Probably a trip--maybe a long one. TheScotch (talk) 08:31, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Greenwich Village Scene

clearly, he belongs in that category71.214.177.214 00:22, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Stonewall

The Wikipedia Stonewall article mentions that Van Ronk was one of the few identified individuals who was severally beaten by the police during the Stonewall Riots. If that is true, would that not be a biographically significant fact that should be included in this article?

Sources, Tone and Organization

While this article seems factually correct, I see no sources cited for any of the facts reported. A quick look at the history shows an accretion of unsourced additions over time. Furthermore, the tone and organization of the article seem to me to be more like a personal reminiscence (admittedly a pleasing one!) than a biographical entry. Understand that I don't take issue with what is said, but I do think that this could be considerably improved, both by citing sources and in terms of organization and tone. Pair O' Noyas 02:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

A lot of it is extracted from the sources linked at the bottom, and would require a truly grotesque number of footnotes or equivalents. Perhaps someone like yourself more distanced from the topic might take a hand? --Orange Mike 15:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Mike, I am a noob here, and, in typical noob fashion, said too much too soon!

My introduction to WP editing involved, unfortunately, the topic of <gasp> scientology©®™. As you may know, when it comes to articles involving Scn, mega-editwars commonly take place over the most trivial of issues, and any statement not bolstered with citations galore is sure to bring about a hail of "POV" accusations. (It will be interesting to see whether the above mention attracts the attention of the hyperever-vigilant minions of LRH.)

Again, I don't take issue with anything factual, and since I (long ago) "knew some guys that knew some guys" that knew Van Ronk, it seems like this article is accurate, and, what is more, that he would approve!

BTW, noob that I am, I thought the indents in these discussions were automatic, but I had to put my own colons in (you should pardon the expression!) What am I missing/doing wrong/not doing? --Pair O' Noyas 18:53, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Nope, nothing is auto-formatted (and the result is some really crappy mis-indentation on some talk pages). --Orange Mike 21:36, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Dave Van Ronk.jpg

Image:Dave Van Ronk.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page. If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 00:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Jazz not black music??

Since when is jazz not "black music"? May be more reasonable to say he gravitated back to black roots music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.34.180.236 (talk) 16:08, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

Discography

I updated the discography to include all releases - it's a bit confusing in many areas as some same titles were used or same album released under a different name. For example, SomeBODY Else, Not Me was changed when released on CD to SomeONE Else, Not Me. Hopefully, it is good to go. I've added a lot of the albums and will do some more updating on them. Allmusic's discog is off in a bunch of places too. Join in! Airproofing (talk) 17:07, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I added a Tom Russell Album, The Man From God Knows Where, to the Discography because Dave Van Ronk is featured performing two songs, The Outcast and a followup, The Outcast (revisited). If someone was trying to put together a complete Van Ronk collection they would need to know about this album. I suspect that there are other albums out there that were by other artists that include him as well. If anyone knows of any they might consider including them in the list. AJseagull1 (talk) 23:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Discography arrangement

I'll admit this is partly personal preference - but I think it might be useful to arrange the discography into several sections. (1) Original studio albums. (2) Live albums. (3) Studio album rereleases (including double-albums on CDs). (4) Greatest-hits style compilations (e.g. a chrestomathy). Any thoughts? :) Luminifer (talk) 06:11, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I prefer the chronological list used now.--Paul (talk) 07:00, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Why? I find it very difficult to actually get a list of individual performances/songs using the list as it is now - or to get a historical chronological perspective on his actual performances. As far as research goes, I think the current format is somewhat limited.Luminifer (talk) 16:26, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Why not compromise and leave the list in chronological order, but mark each album as studio or live as appropriate? --Richhoncho (talk) 16:38, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Not a bad idea! What do you think, an extra column and color-coding? Luminifer (talk) 18:43, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I rearranged it - forgetting about this discussion - but I won't be annoyed if someone rearranges it back to chronogical as long as the information I've added (i.e. what kind of album it is) is just as easily readable... i.e. an extra column (if I have time I'll do it).

Ordering of live albums

What do people think of listing them chronologically by performance date rather than by release date? Luminifer (talk) 16:01, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Discography dates

[1] disagrees with the years we have for some of the albums, like the ragtime jug stompers, and just dave van ronk. Just Dave Van Ronk sounds later than In The Tradition to my ears, as well. I just checked my vinyl copy, there is NO YEAR anywhere on it. Likewise for Jug Stompers. Does anyone have any ideas? Luminifer (talk) 01:21, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Ragtime Jug Stompers is definitely later than 1960, probably 1963. I looked in "The Mayor of MacDougal Street" but there is no specific date for the album other than to mention it was made about the same time as Inside Dave Van Ronk.--Paul (talk) 14:10, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

The wikipedia article says it's 1964. That seems right to me.--Paul (talk) 14:13, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Attribution for the song "He Was A Friend Of Mine"

The Career section states, "Van Ronk joined the many performers who played at Phil's memorial concert in the Felt Forum at Madison Square Garden, playing a bluesy version of Dylan's 'He Was A Friend Of Mine'."

Dylan did indeed have his own version of "He Was A Friend Of Mine" (HWAFOM), but HWAFOM is a traditional folk song that predates Dylan. (I believe someone [Woody Guthrie?] adapted it for a tribute to FDR upon the latter's death in 1945.)

Not knowing whether Van Ronk's rendition looked more like Dylan's or the traditional version, I'm not sure what would be appropriate to write in this case. In any case, the current text seems to falsely credit Dylan as the originator of HWAFOM. Should it be said that Van Ronk played a bluesy version of the tradition folk song HWAFOM (omitting reference to Dylan), or that he played a bluesy version of Dylan's VERSION of HWAFOM? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Convit (talk • contribs) 08:03, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not Bob Dylan's fucking song. Period. End of story. Eric Von Schmidt had a version... Bob Dylan had a version... Dave Van Ronk had a version. But it's a traditional song. It even predates that other guy who recorded it for the Library of Congress. It's an old chain-gang/slave song. My great-great grandfather used to sing it. So did his son and his son's son (my father didn't care for it "Too sad"... he was into Disco). I could rearrange the chords and record a version of it tomorrow and DARE Bob Dylan to sue me for it.

So I changed it. And I'd change it again if anybody ever changed it back. In fact I'd be more than willing to spend the rest of my life making sure that the world knows that Bob Dylan didn't write every damned song on the planet. -Rainless

Just to clarify matters a bit: Bob Dylan recorded the traditional song ("He Was a Friend of Mine") at the sessions for his first album in 1961, but that recording wasn't released until three decades later in a collection of old outtakes. It's thus extremely unlikely that the public at large would have associated the song with Dylan in any way at the time of the Phil Ochs memorial concert. It's also worth noting that for Dylan's first album he recorded Dave Van Ronk's arrangement of the traditional song "House of the Rising Sun". This song had been a staple of Van Ronk's performing repertoire, but Dylan at the time had not previously performed the song in public at all. TheScotch (talk) 06:23, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

As Van Ronk's close friend and the writer of his memoir, I can say with absolute certainty that Dave learned "He Was a Friend of Mine" from Dylan and credited Dylan as composer of the version he sang. Dylan learned it from Eric Von Schmidt, but changed it quite a bit. Von Schmidt had also changed it quite a bit, after hearing it on a recording by Smith Casey recording in the Library of Congress. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.20.5.218 (talk) 13:46, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

References

Writing - sources

Dave seems to have written a few things - Some of these are reprints of earlier editions. Is there opposition to listing his written works and instruction books/tapes/CDs in the article?

• The Search for Robert Johnson. Dave Van Ronk. ew.com; Entertainment Weekly. August 07, 1992. Dave's review of the documentary.

• Dave Van Ronk "Folk and Blues Fingerstyle Guitar" [Paperback], 32 pages. Stefan Grossman's Guitar Workshop (July 17, 2001) Mel Bay Productions, Pacific MO. ISBN-13: 978-0786659265 Includes 3 CDs. Amazon Google Books

• "Blues and Ragtime Fingerstyle Guitar" [Paperback] Dave Van Ronk 32 pages Stefan Grossman's Guitar Workshop (July 17, 2001) Mel Bay Productions, Pacific MO. ISBN-13: 978-0786659272 Includes 3 CDs. Amazon Google Books

• "The Collected Reprints from Sing Out!: The Folk Song Magazine", Volumes 7-12, 1964-1973 (v. 7-12) [Paperback]. Sing Out Editorial and Dave Van Ronk. 382 pages. Publisher: Sing Out Publications. (January 1993) ISBN:978-1881322009 Amazon

• "The Bosses' Songbook: Songs to Stifle the Flames of Discontent". Dave Van Ronk, Richard Ellington. New York; Richard. Ellington. 1959. (Source: "Prophet Singer: The Voice and Vision of Woody Guthrie". Mark Allan Jackson. January 2007 Publisher: University Press of Mississippi * ISBN-13: 9781604731026) Google Books

• "Dave van Ronk, Accompanying Himself On Guitar Sings Ballads, Blues & A Spiritual" [Unknown Binding]. Dave van Ronk. Folkways Records, (January 1, 1959) ASIN: B002K6THO2

• "Guitar Stylings of Dave Van Ronk" (Mel Bay Presents) [Paperback], 80 pages Mel Bay; MB95443 edition (1996) ISBN: 978-0786604722 Amazon

• "Dave Van Ronk's Fingerpicking Folk, Blues and Ragtime Guitar [Spiral-bound]". Dave Van Ronk (Author) Stefan Grossman (1982) ASIN: B000NMFKB4 Amazon --Lexein (talk) 17:02, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Dave Van Ronk Unauthorized

Dug this out of the Wayback machine. Seems comprehensive, even if it isn't usable as a source.

• Dave Van Ronk Unauthorized Jeff Kenney.

--Lexein (talk) 17:02, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Stonewall

Dave was grabbed by three cops and charged with assault at the Stonewall riot. Did he comment on it later? There seems to be no mention of the incident in The Mayor of MacDougal Street. What's up with that? --Lexein (talk) 18:09, 14 August 2010 (UTC) Hallo. Could anyone explain ho a persons ancestry can be three fifths anything? (personal characteristics)Izzythe dram (talk) 03:57, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Duplication re Stonewall

A report of Van Ronk's arrest during the Stonewall Riots appears twice and is cited to different sources. To fix this, I would remove the first report but keep the Village Voice reference which it cites:

Attracted to the commotion from a neighboring bar, and no stranger to police violence, he was at the famous Stonewall Riots during which he was grabbed by police, arrested, briefly jailed and charged with felony assault on a police officer.{{cite web |title=Gay Power Comes to Sheridan Square |author=Lucian Truscott IV |work=Village Voice |date=July 3, 1969 |publisher= |url=http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/eresources/exhibitions/sw25/voice_19690703_truscott.html |format=Transcript |accessdate=August 14, 2010}} [http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/eresources/exhibitions/sw25/voice1.html page scans]

The two reports say basically the same thing. EdJohnston (talk) 04:43, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

I have made the above change. One complication is that the link to a report at davidcarterauthor.com is no longer working. Instead, I've provided a 2010 book by the same author: Carter, David (2010). Stonewall: The riots that sparked the gay revolution. St. Martin’s Griffin. ISBN 0312671938.. You can preview this book on the Amazon site to find some passages that refer to Van Ronk. EdJohnston (talk) 02:43, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I am getting the feeling that one of his ex girlfriends wrote a lot of this. I agree with previous comments that the article is rather too subjective. Some of these assertions need to be attributed.24.56.39.141 (talk) 06:59, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

The House of the Rising Sun

I think it's worth noting Van Ronk's contribution to the version of this traditional song by which most of us know it, and I've added a short paragraph about that to the article. Below is the passage in the New York Times to which my first citation refers:

"The most celebrated example of a Van Ronk arrangement taking on a life of its own is the traditional New Orleans ballad 'House of the Rising Sun.' That song had already been recorded by artists like Roy Acuff, Woody Guthrie, Josh White and even Andy Griffith before Van Ronk took it up and revamped it with an intricate guitar introduction.

" 'I put a different spin on it by altering the chords and using a bass line that descended in half steps — a common enough progression in jazz, but unusual among folk singers,' Van Ronk recalled in his memoir. 'By the early 1960s, the song had become one of my signature pieces, and I could hardly get off the stage without doing it.'

"Among the admirers who heard the song was the young Bob Dylan, who copied Van Ronk’s arrangement when he recorded the song for his first album, in 1962. Van Ronk then stopped playing the song — an early version is included on 'Down in Washington Square' — and when the British group the Animals had a worldwide hit with the song in 1964, using much the same arrangement, Dylan also dropped it."

I don't have the book to which my second citation refers with me at the moment, but I hope to return with a page number and the passage in question. TheScotch (talk) 07:22, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Okay, here's the passage (page 261). I'm afraid it's not as resounding as I seem to have misremembered it:

"Not only had Dylan heard the Beatles, he had hung out with them during a concert tour in England in May of 1964. The Beatles, the Stones, Eric Burdon and the Animals. They'd smoked some reefer, had a ball. Dylan was particularly excited about a song he himself had sung on his first album. 'My God, ya oughta hear what's a going down over there! Eric Burdon and the Animals, ya know? Well, he's doing "House of the Rising Sun" in rock. Rock! It's fuckin' wild! Blew my mind!" '

Anyway, the idea is that the song had been strongly associated with the folk movement, having been recorded by the people mentioned above and also, probably among others, Joan Baez and Carolyn Hester. Now a rock group had made a real rock record out of it, and it became a very big hit just before the onset of folk-rock. TheScotch (talk) 21:27, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Political affiliations

The reference to the current name of the party he joined does not add any information to this article. At the time it was called the American Committee for the Fourth International, which he left soon after. Adding information about a name change made nearly 40 years after his departure is not necessary, or even interesting information on the subject. It was added by members of that party to elicit hits to their website.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.218.223.215 (talk) 20:55, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

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