Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/KaintheScion et al./Evidence

Anyone, whether directly involved or not, may add evidence to this page. Please make a header for your evidence and sign your comments with your name.

When placing evidence here, please be considerate of the arbitrators and be concise. Long, rambling, or stream-of-conciousness rants are not helpful.

As such, it is extremely important that you use the prescribed format. Submitted evidence should include a link to the actual page diff; links to the page itself are not sufficient. For example, to cite the edit by Mennonot to the article Anomalous phenomenon adding a link to Hundredth Monkey use this form: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anomalous_phenomenon&diff=5587219&oldid=5584644] [1].

This page is not for general discussion - for that, see talk page.

Please make a section for your evidence and add evidence only in your own section. Please limit your evidence to a maximum 1000 words and 100 diffs, a much shorter, concise presentation is more likely to be effective. Please focus on the issues raised in the complaint and answer and on diffs which illustrate behavior which relates to the issues.

If you disagree with some evidence you see here, please cite the evidence in your own section and provide counter-evidence, or an explanation of why the evidence is misleading. Do not edit within the evidence section of any other user.

Be aware that the Arbitrators may at times rework this page to try to make it more coherent. If you are a participant in the case or a third party, please don't try to refactor the page, let the Arbitrators do it. If you object to evidence which is inserted by other participants or third parties please cite the evidence and voice your objections within your own section of the page. It is especially important to not remove evidence presented by others. If something is put in the wrong place, please leave it for the arbitrators to move.

Evidence presented by {BrandonYusufToropov}

<3-9> <May>

First time I've submitted something like this -- sorry if I'm not formatting it right, but below is verbatim from Talk:IslamofascismBrandonYusufToropov 20:06, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

• It should be noted that Grace Note is the user who touched this whole thing off by vandalizing the article in the first place. REFERENCE. His/her contribution to any discussion of this topic ought to be deemed worse than meaningless.KaintheScion

• All he did there was revert to the last version by Jayjg, maybe you should go harass him.Yuber^(talk) 23:44, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

• BULLSHIT, Yuber, and you're really one to talk. From the headers of the edits:

Revision as of 04:08, 3 May 2005

Fredwlerr (Talk | contribs)

restore last good version

Revision as of 04:12, 3 May 2005

Grace Note (Talk | contribs)

rv to Jayjg

Grace Note wasn't "restoring" anything; he/she was engaging in vandalism. Go read the rules: wholesale content deletion, without a consensus on the Discussion page (and there isn't one) is vandalismKaintheScion

You seem to know a lot about the "rules" for a new editor. It's only a pity you didn't read the rules on civility. Grace Note 00:15, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

<snip>

Richard II is another debate, and a different situation. Mohammed's marriages were not "arranged by the family" or such bullshit: look through his list of wives.

<24> <May>

And below is verbatim from Talk:Islamic Fascism, another perpetually contentious page. It takes a while to get through, for which I apologize, but note that the page was, amazingly, on the verge of compromise ... until the newly-born-but-strangely-familiar-with-the-discussion Enviroknot got wind of as much, and disruption followed once again. (P.S.: Note Svest's accurate prediction, below.)

I think CBerlet is on the mark here. I think it will help (1) to get this out of the context of a particular religion and (2) to discuss the inappropriate use of epithets like this and (3) to discuss the several cases where adherents of various religions -- Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, possibly others -- have, at times, adopted ideologies that blend neo-fascism and religious sectarianism. Fascists in the Muslim world tend to be relatively secular, but there is a better chance of getting that clear in a more broadly contextualized article than in one like this, which is an almost guaranteed perpetual battleground. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:57, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

I am sensitive to the fact that the idea of Islamic Fascism can be used in a bigoted way, but by moving to a page that talks about several religions, the issue can be put in greater context, and can lessen the focus on a single religious tradition. --Cberlet 21:33, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I would like to add support for a redirect. The Neofascism and religion page is, IMHO, a good example of a wiki page on a potentially controversial topic, in that it leaves the reader with many options for further investigation, and provides contextual imformation to examine the issue as it may apply to various religions. It also provides a good grounding via the opening discussion about the nature of fascism itself. Thanks illWill 23:44, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I would as well like to add support for a redirect, perhaps we can get this whole thing settled once and for all (been going on for over a month now).Yuber^(talk) 23:46, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Great to see blue skies again. Everybody is agreeing about the redirection. Redirect has been my option since the birth of the me-u-fascim articles. We even tried to merge them in a single article Fascist (epithet) that User:LeeHunter created. The problem is that everytime we felt that we were almost achieving a consensus, some literally just-yesterday-new account-users would come up with an objection as if she/he's been participating in this discussions since the beginning. This is not against the rules but surely against the ethics. Since the discussions begun, everytime that just-yesterday-new account-users felt losing ground, she/he'd leave and would be replaced with another on the spot. We've come up to solutions a couple of times but we experienced the sudden ressurection and arrival of NAUs with a veto to the deal. I believe this is time to decide this for once. Now, we have to decide if it is possible to avoid redundancy by merging Fascist (epithet) with Neofascism and religion. Cheers and respect -- Svest 01:57, May 26, 2005 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up}

I hope to help rewrite Fascist (epithet) to avoid redundancy and add some text. It really is a problem that goes beyond religion. We can move the Orwell quote back in there, and provide several cross-links in the Neofascism and religion page.

I might point out that Neofascism and religion is an inherently different category than Fascist (epithet) the latter is properly concerned solely with the term used as a political slur against any group (ie, not particularly a religious group), whereas Neofascism and religion might cover religious groups who are acually fascist in philosophy (some fringe white power groups come to mind), so if the content is to move, it might be better as a disambiguation page pointing in both directions. Saswann 23:24, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Saswann. Cheers -- Svest 23:57, May 26, 2005 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up&#153;}

This makes a good point. I would be willing to discuss it further if anyone else has input.--Cberlet 01:42, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Extreme Disagree This has been gone over multiple times. Islamofascism was the target of an apparently successful defacement campaign following a failed Vote for Deletion, and appears now slated by less-than-unanimous consent (given Mel Etitis' misrepresentation of at least one user's comments) to be merged into Islamic Fascism. To then merge Islamic Fascism away is beyond ridiculous. It goes against the objection of the editor Mel Etitis misrepresented as well, which was that the merge was fine provided the content of Islamic Fascism was not then defaced. There are also the objections of Klonimus at the talk page for Islamofascism to consider]]. Enviroknot 21:33, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

<end>

I (BrandonYusufToropov) then immediately ask Enviroknot to offer further thoughts, but no response is forthcoming, presumably because Enviroknot/Kain/ElKabong is wary about interacting with someone who has expressed skepticism about his/her previous sockpuppets.BrandonYusufToropov 20:06, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

<6> <May>

• <15:45>

User:ElKabong' s response on Talk:Islamofascism to my query to other editors to review his material:

My so-called "changes" were the reversion of losers like you GUTTING THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE.

<23> <May>

• <15:41>

User:ElKabong' s response to my critique of the articles Islamofascism and Islamic fascism (on Talk:Islamofascism):

The most worthless bullshit argument I've seen yet

Really now. Do a quick Google on Islamofascism. Do a little light reading (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=7938). Your bit about "pigs flying" is bullshit and you know it. User:ElKabong

Evidence presented by Tony Sidaway

People who have seen this guy at work will know what to expect. Evidence of extremely aggressive trolling. He really isn't a very nice chap at all.

6 May

• 16:58
  • WP:AN/I: Mel Etitis says "I blocked ElKabong (talk · contribs) for violating the 3RR, and 129.7.35.205 (talk · contribs) immdiately popped up making the same edits with similar edit summaries. I'm now not sure that I should have blocked ElKabong myself, as I had been involved in editing the page (at the time I thought that, given the 3RR issue isn't a subjective matter but an objective and mechanically verifiable fact, being an interested party shouldn't matter, but I should have checked the rules first). I'm therefore reluctant to do anything about the anon." [2].
  • There is also a fair bit of other stuff around on that archive page. In particular see this for an example of ridiculous trollery.

12 May

• 05:23
  • Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/KaintheScion: RfC started by User:Firebug. Again much trolling ensues.
• 17:07
  • WP:AN/I: Tony Sidaway makes comment describing the suspiciously sockish actions of User:ElKabong and User:KaintheScion [3]. Again we get some pretty aggressive trolling.

• <timestamp3>
  • What happened.

<day2> <month>

• <timestamp1>
  • What happened.

• <timestamp2>
  • What happened.

• <timestamp3>
  • What happened.

Evidence presented by Jayjg

20 May 2005

• 16:27, 20 May 2005
  • I attempt to convince ElKabong to stop making abusive comments. [4] ElKabong responds by calling David Gerard a "jerk" who "lied" and is supported by "lackies".[5]
• 19:18, 20 May 2005
  • I again attempt to convince ElKabong to stop making abusive comments.[6]. ElKabong replies with invective, insisting he won't stop.[7]
• 19:40, 20 May 2005
  • Third attempt:[8]. ElKabong insists I should look at my "butt-buddy admin friends" instead and refers to SlimVirgin as a "powermad freak".[9]

25 May 2005

• 19:43, 25 May 2005
  • I try again to convince ElKabong to stop making abusive comments.[10] ElKabong restores a previously abusive comment, says "ZScout just pulled his lying bullshit again on KtS's page", and refers to other editors as "lying bastards". [11]
• 20:59, 25 May 2005
  • I try again, but get no further response. [12]

Evidence presented by {ElKabong}

• You ought to cut a deal with this guys, and do it very quickly, or this will be the end of your time on Wikipedia. Arbitration is a rigged game: you play, you lose. I don't know whether you care or not, but I just wanted to give you that bit of advice. Everyking 05:03, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
  • I really don't see the point of answering having received this. If you can tell me what the point would be, I might reconsider. ElKabong 22:19, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Thryduulf

The evidence present below is selected examples, as I would be here all day if I reported it all. Thryduulf 17:24, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Abusive edit summaries

27 May 2005

• 12:49
  • ElKabong removed the sockpuppet template on user:Environknot with the edit summary "Fuck you, Yuber/Mel Etitis, there is no sockpuppetry going on" [13]
• 15:07
  • ElKabong removed the sockpuppet template on user:Environknot with the edit summary "Mel Etitis, stop being a fucking vandal." [14]

2 June 2005

• 15:04
  • ElKabong Removed the sockpuppet template on his user page with an abusive edit summary "Knock it off Etitis you fucking vandal.", although it was actually Yuber who placed in on the page [15].
• 15:05
  • ElKabong removed the sockpuppet template on user:Enviroknot with the edit summary "Fuck you Etitis and your sockpuppet Yuber too" [16]

Personal attacks

25 May 2005

• 18:45
  • ElKabong on talk:Islamofascism: Makes a personal attack directed at Yuber: "No, the comment wasn't made by me, you lying Islamist fuck. ElKabong" [17]
• 19:19
  • ElKabong on user talk:SlimVirgin: leaves a comparitalively miled attack in a section entitled "Screw you, LIAR". [18]
• 22:19
  • ElKabong made personal attacks against Jayjg, SlimVirgin and Zscout on user talk:Jayjg. [19]

27 May 2005

• 12:49
  • ElKabong on Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration:

  "If it's a rigged game, and it obviously is, there's no point in playing. And as long as a bunch of POV-pushing Islamists and power-mad Admins are persecuting me, there's no point in being here. You can all GFYS.

  Incidentally, there IS no sockpuppetry going on, though I'm sure David Gerard will keep lying out his ass regarding that.

  I'm removing the sockpuppetry bullshit from Enviroknot's page. It has no business being there. Firebug and Mel Etitis, fuck you for putting it on an innocent user's page." [20]

• 16:19
  • ElKabong on user talk:Mel Etitis: "...Because you [Mel Etitis], Firebug, and the rest are a bunch of lying fucktards and I'm not about to let you get away with doing that bullshit to an innocent person. I already know I'm fucked, you've made the decision to hound me for daring to speak truth to Islam.ElKabong" [21]

• 13:26
  • ElKabong on User talk:Environot:

  "The lying fucktards Firebug and Mel Etitis keep trying to tag your user page with a sockpuppet notice. I have now removed it twice.

  You should know they'll probably continue, the lying fucktards will do anything then can to try to attack anyone who doesn't share their POV-pushing ways. ElKabong" [22]

2 June 2005

• 15:06
  • ElKabong posted a message on User:KaintheScion containing attacks on David Gerard, Tony Sidaway and admins generally: "The accusations [of sockpuppetry] were made in bad faith by the liar David Gerard at the behest of Tony Sidaway". [23]

Evidence presented by Yuber

I'm a bit late with this, but here it goes. There are too many examples to list them all. I will just list the ones I feel are the most pertinent.Yuber^(talk) 14:12, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Evidence of Sockpuppetry

12 May 2005

• 16:32
  • El Kabong makes a comment and manually signs it as "KaintheScion". [24]

23 May 2005

• 16:51
  • ElKabong repeatedly removes the sockpuppet template from the user page of KaintheScion. His comment is interesting, since he says that Zscout is "lying about him", although this is the page of KaintheScion. [25]

25 May 2005

• 22:56
  • Here, ElKabong adds a sentence claiming that Saudi Arabia still imposes Dhimmi restrictions[26].

• 23:54
  • Here, Enviroknot reverts to ElKabong's version with the same exact wording, showing that they are in fact the same user and that they revert on the same articles.[27]

3 June 2005

• 14:29
  • ElKabong removes the sockpuppet template from the userpage of Enviroknot, calling Mel Etitis a "fucking vandal". This links ElKabong to Enviroknot, completing the sockpuppet triangle.[28]

13 June 2005

• • Check the history of this page to see anonymous IPs reverting and removing info from the evidence sections. I have no doubt in my mind that these anon IPs are KaintheScion and all his sockpuppets.

Evidence of abusive editing

I urge everyone to look at KaintheScion's RFC here to see all the abusive comments he made, these are but a few.

9 May 2005

• 00:18
  • Adds section to top of my talkpage calling me a dumbass[29]
• 1:02
  • Adds a section to my talkpage calling me a "stupid POV-pushing revert monkey"[30].
• 2:12
  • Reports me for vandalism on an edit that is clearly not vandalism (he has done this many times)[31]

5 June 2005

• 6:00
  • After I removed a message from my talkpage that I felt was very offensive (called User:Mustafaa a terrorist), Enviroknot adds it back in, calling me a "sockpuppet of Mel Etitis" [32]

20 June 2005

• 1:52
  • Enviroknot leaves a message on a userpage calling the user a jerk [33].
• 1:53
  • After the attacks are removed, he reverts to his version again [34].
• 1:55
  • He again reverts after the message is removed [35].
• 2:11
  • Another personal attack on the same talkpage [36].
• 2:12
  • Once again, reverts a talkpage and makes another personal attack [37].

Evidence presented by Radiant!

The proposed decision page [38] and its talk page [39] have been under recent attack from a series of anonymous vandals. Radiant_>|< 14:06, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)

Evidence presented by A Man In Black

Enviroknot moved PlayStation Portable to PSP (Sony Handheld) against consensus. He moved it the first time, I moved it back, he moved it a second time, I moved it back, and that was that. It's not a big deal, but an anon ([40] - said anon's edit history) immediately came in and defended Enviroknot's move [41] and was verbally abusive in edits to the main page [42]. Considering this anon also seems to have a feud with Yuber [43] and Enviroknot is being accused of sockpuppetry, this is very suspicious. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 30 June 2005 06:36 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Autoshade 05:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I found on Fixislam userpage; It is suspected that this user might be a sock puppet or impersonator of KaintheScion.

Let it be known that Fixislam may also be a sock puppet of Zora.

See below...

Mohammed->History

(cur) (last) 4375500743755007 17:37, 14 March 2006 Zora (rv to Pepsidrinka -- I'm not a fundamentalist Muslim and I do not find those edits helpful -- they're POV)
(cur) (last) 4375470443754704 17:34, 14 March 2006 Fixislam (?Family life)
(cur) (last) 4374658843746588 16:29, 14 March 2006 Fixislam (rv pov fundamentalist muslim nonsense, preserve intro as per Pepsidrinka. Extra reference/category unnecessary.)
(cur) (last) 4374522743745227 16:18, 14 March 2006 Pepsidrinka (rv - why are you removing arabic from the intro, a template, and the references section?)
(cur) (last) 4374472843744728 16:15, 14 March 2006 Fixislam (rv fundamentalist muslim vandal)

Fixislam removed Arabic trasliteration, Pepsidrinka fixed the article calling Fixislam fundamentalist, Zora then responds "I'm not a fundamentalist", why is she responding like this?