Talk:Ger (Hasidic dynasty)

Is there a specific reason why the link to a picture of a spodik (from the article on Rabbi Isaac Hutner) was removed? Should I write a short entry about what a spodik is, and then link it to the picture of Rabbi Isaac Hutner, and then link the whole spodik article to this article on Ger?

Similarly, would it be inappropriate (or too much detail) to write further about the Ger Hasidim's distinctive hat (an everyday hat, not a Spodik), as well as provide a picture of it?

Those sound interesting, please do add them. SF2K1

gerrer wedding videos

i have some gerrer wedding videos that i would like to post links to. the link is http://youtube.com/watch?v=owi6tzww-0Q. do you all think this would be an appropriate video to post? let me know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.64.143.32 (talk) 21:02, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Vandal

Some vandal is constantly reverting all my edits and additions on this page.Ortho 03:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC) Now its starting in the Yisrael Alter page as well. Some of my edits are clearly needed and this is clear vandalism. Someone please help I'm unfamiliar with the procedureOrtho 05:14, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay now he got better and erased only what was offensive to him and replaced it by the paragraph entitled "Emphasis on Purity and Holiness". I concede to that title and to some of the material therein but most of it is not appropriate for Wikipedia. The fact that "It is very hard to describe how this was done. Only the people that had the Zchus (privilege & merit) to meet with him personally can truly understand this" is no reason to hold back the extremely interesting and noteworthy information that I posted. To be sure - any article anywere, much more so in an encyclopedia, about another foreign culture will never enable the reader to truly or fully understand that culture. Nevertheless the facts should still be available. Anyone interested in some very interesting facts about Ger should just go to "history" and see my latest edit that has since been erased.Ortho 23:57, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

portions often removed by vandal

Unlike other Hassidim, Gerrer Hassidim are known to pray very quickly, so they have more time to study Talmud. In the middle of Sabbath prayers, Gerrer Hassidim take a break from praying to study.

Emphasis on Purity and Holiness

The Bais Yisroel Z"L who was the 5th Gerrer Rebbe emphasized the portions of the Torah that deals with being holy and pure. He left a great impression on all walks of life that came in contact with him and was highly respected by all chasidic circles. His idea was to elevate every person to somehow become one level higher than his present state. There are countless stories from individuals (Chasidim and NON Chasidim) who met the Rebbe, which relate how he had a tremendous spiritual impact on them and how this strong impression will never leave them. What makes this even more impressive is that many of these encounters with the Rebbe were for a very short period of time.

Ger is by far the most restrictive of all Hasidic sects regarding sexual matters, allowing marital sex only once a month and without any foreplay even a simple hug or kiss. The Beis Yisrael is responsible for reinforcing these restrictions in Ger post WWII with great effort and amidst opposition from others outside Ger such as Rabbi Yaakov Yisrael Kanievsky the Steipler Gaon.

Gerrer Hasidim do not walk in the street with their wives side by side rather she walks four cubits behind him. A Gerrer hasid will not utter the word "wife" rather he will say "bei mir in shtib" or "bei dir in shtib" ("in my house" or "in your house" respectively). (There are but a few sources in the Talmud that allude to such a way of speaking.)Itzik18 07:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC) as well as a link to a video clipItzik18 07:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Where in the world are you getting this: I have some Ger relatives and frankly the above is bunch of crap - their sexual relations would be similar to most religious Jews (remember it is a Mitvah to provide sexual happiness to one's wife), and this business of once a month and holes in the sheet comes from holes in the head@Incorrect 04:13, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I've been told the same things by other Hasidim--not the hole in the sheet (definitely a myth), but that Ger is extremely restrictive about sexuality and that they don't talk about their wives. I've also been told, however, that things are loosening slightly now as Ger women are not willing to put up with only having sex once a month. If this is an urban legend it is one with a lot of currency within the Hasidic community. Alexisr 19:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/for-members-of-israel-s-ultra-orthodox-gur-sect-sex-is-a-sin-1.412153

Contradiction in article

In the section "Distribution of Gerrer Hasidim" it says "Rabbi Avraham Mordechai Alter, who managed to escape, set about the task of rebuilding the movement in the British Mandate of Palestine" and in section "The 5th Gerrer Rebbe" it says "The Beis Yisrael ... rebuilt Ger after its virtual destruction in World War II". This seems contradictory and should be decided or clarified. Debresser (talk) 23:48, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

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Abuse

This article is about a Hassidic group that has had 7 Rebbes over the generations. These allegations are against one out of those 7 Rebbe's 9 children. Furthermore, the only source of these allegations is an Haaretz article which relies on a supposedly anonymous victim. There was never a police report or an investigation to corroborate it. Considering that Haaretz has been accused of being anti-Haredi and that there is Gerrer Opposition with motive to malign and besmirch the Gerrers and their leader, these allegations certainly appear to be highly questionable. Since these allegations aren't very relevant or corroborated and have not even received notable coverage (other then Haaretz - the additional citation quotes Haaretz) then why are they given a section on this wikipedia page? Wikipedia isn't a gossip section in a tabloid.--Steamboat2020 (talk) 16:06, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

ping: User:Smntstatus--Steamboat2020 (talk) 16:32, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

On the face of it, it appears to be a credible article (last diff, for reference). Non-editorial/opinion articles from Haaretz are considered acceptable sources for Wikipedia's purposes. The source in question relies on two anonymous victims, as well as several additional anonymous sources. It references a previous investigation into the same alleged perpetrator and also presents a response from a representative of the community, which includes the possibility of feuding within the community being a motivation for the allegations. Wikipedia's article should be able to document the conflict without taking sides. Ibadibam (talk) 19:36, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

@Ibadibam: You addressed the credibility of Ha’aretz and that the allegations were potentially motivated by the breakaway faction. However, you didn’t address whether these allegations are notable in terms the Hasidic dynasty as a whole. Let’s assume the Ha’aretz article was written in good faith. Let’s assume the breakaway faction had nothing to do with these allegations. I still think it shouldn’t be included on THIS page (if the Rebbe’s son had his own page then of course it should be included on it) and it certainly didn’t deserve and entire section devoted to it. Let’s put it in perspective. This page is devoted to the Ger Hasidic group. The group has had 8 Rebbes and a leader of an offshoot sect. Those 9 leaders cumulatively have had many children. I have no idea how many Gerrer Rebbe’s children there have been over the generations but according to the article we know that the current Rebbe has 9 children. We are talking about allegations made against one of those 9 children. How notable are these allegations against the sect a whole? If one of the estimated 100,000 followers was accused, I think everyone would agree that it doesn’t reflect the movement and isn’t notable for this page. So where do we draw the line? One out of many children was accused of abuse, so does that reflect the movement or his father? If there was alleged knowledge of it in the hierarchy and it was covered up, then at least the cover- up would be notable but all the Haaretz report supposedly stated was that it was known to at least one “senior figure”. A senior figure is an extremely vague term. Does that refer to a principal of one of their numerous schools? I don’t believe that knowledge of the allegations and refusal to act upon those allegations by one rouge principal in a such a large network of schools, which is estimated (albeit without a reference) at 100 institutions is particularly notable. Your thoughts?--Steamboat2020 (talk) 18:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

While it could be argued that the information in the article demonstrates the sect's approach to handling sensitive problems and is thus a representative, notable fact, you're right that the article doesn't attempt to make such a generalization. I can think of two other places for this: Yaakov Aryeh Alter, with a focus on how the Admor handled the issue; or Sexual abuse cases in Brooklyn's Haredi community, where there has previously been consensus for removing the "Brooklyn" constraint on the article's scope. Ibadibam (talk) 22:00, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Kehilas Pnei Menachem

I added referenced info regarding the size of the breakaway group compared to the mainstream faction--Steamboat2020 (talk) 13:47, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

ping @Ibadibam and @Intellectual Person--Steamboat2020 (talk) 14:09, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that is the right thing to put in numbers of families, but even of you think it is, the number of 100,000 families is for sure not accurate, as the official telephone book doesn't have more than 10,000 families which include the families of Rabbi Shaul Alter's families. I could send you in an private the telephone book.--Intellectual Person (talk) 15:33, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

@Intellectual Person: You can't publish original research on wikipedia. The only worldwide Gerrer phonebook, that I am aware of, was published in 2012. Unfortunately, it's outdated. While, you can probably make calculations of estimated deaths and marriages over the past 9 years and estimate the current number of families, it isn't acceptable on wikipedia. If you find an acceptable reference for your estimate, then by all means build into the article and cite your reference--Steamboat2020 (talk) 00:47, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

By the way is this an accurate way of writing in Wikipedia, 500 families versus 100,000 people? It should be 800 families versus 10,000 families, or 8,000 people versus 100,000 people.--Intellectual Person (talk) 15:39, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

We use whatever figure is used in the sources. For example, the "300 families" figure comes from this passage in a Jerusalem Post source:

In a dramatic sequence of events in 2019, Rabbi Shaul Alter, first cousin of the Gur hassidic dynasty’s Grand Rabbi Yaakov Aryeh Alter, split away from the main Gur community following years of tension between the two, with some 300 families in Israel following him at the time.

If there is a source that counts individuals, we'll use that figure. Ibadibam (talk) 18:02, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

I added the estimate of families that it should be read and understood in the real context.--Intellectual Person (talk) 19:20, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Great, what's your source for the estimate? Please cite it. Ibadibam (talk) 20:35, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Please note, that the "Gerer Phone Book", uploaded by @intellectual person was published immediately prior to the split in 2019. It also only includes the families whom reside in Israel. Finally, it lists 11,580 families (303 pages of 38 families, 1 page of 37 familes and 1 page of 29 families), which means that (without factoring in 2 years of population growth) according to the Jerusalem Post's estimate, there should still be over 11 thousand families of hassidim in the main sect. Accordingly, I will rewrite the family estimate in a manner that properly conveys what is written in the cited source--Steamboat2020 (talk) 16:14, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm quite shocked to see an entire phonebook uploaded as a source, making personal contact information for an entire community freely available to the public. It seems like something that should be prohibited by Wikipedia policies but I can't find anything. Ibadibam (talk) 22:31, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

I am not going to get into an argument about the exact number, becauese if you don't count all the people that don't pray officially in a synagogue of the Ger Dynasty, then you have around 10,500 families, and then 500 left to R' Shaul, so you have approximate 10,000 families in Israel, which we are talking about when it says 100,000 people in Israel. Intellectual Person (talk) 00:19, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

I understand. #1.) However, you can't publish original research on wikipedia and the book that you cited doesn't distinguish between families who pray in the gerrer synagogues and familes that don't . You need to accurately state the number quoted in your reference, unless, you can cite another reference that says that the book includes x amount of families that aren't actualy hasidim. #2.) I am not sure others would agree that only people who pray in the gerrer synagogues are gerrer hasidim--Steamboat2020 (talk) 04:43, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

As stated in the Telephone Book there are 11,500 families in Israel as of 2019 right before the split, 500 went to Rebbe Shaul so there are now 11,000 families. Please don't erase it without asking in the talk page. Intellectual Person (talk) 22:29, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

@ Intellectual Person: I looked again at the phonebook on wikicommons that you cited as your reference and I just realized that you uploaded it to wikicommons and declared that the book was your "own work". I have repeteadly reminded you that you can't publish original research on wikipedia. If in fact, the book was your own creation then it cannot be used as a reference. If you incorrectly listed the book as your own creation then it needs be removed from wikicommons because of potential copyright violations. Either way, it appears that you need to find another reference to cite. ---(ping:Ibadibam)---Steamboat2020 (talk) 17:21, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

I declared it was my own book because I transferred it from an excel sheet to a pdf file. It clearly looks like it bothers you that it is cited in Wikipedia, I wonder if there is no agenda to find fault in the real number of families of Ger in Israel. It looks like you want people to think falsely that there are much more families than there really are, as you keep on finding problems with this fact.Intellectual Person (talk) 18:19, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

(1.) That isn't considered "my own work", you need written permission from the person that created the excel sheet to avoid potential copyright violations and the work needs to be attributed to the creator of the excel sheet. I will addreess this matter further on wikicommons. (2.) This is the last reminder that you need to stop engaging in personal attacks against me. If you do it again, I will report it to an adminstrator. (3.) I have no idea how many families there "really" are. We can only quote the numbers that a reputable source states--Steamboat2020 (talk) 18:41, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Even if the "phone book" was created by somebody else and you didn't violate any copyright protections by uploading it wikicommons, a phone book - or to be more accurate a self published microsoft excel spreadsheet which allegedly lists all of the gerrer families in Israel is not considered a reliable source on wikipedia and for good reason--Steamboat2020 (talk) 18:41, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

@Intellectual Person: Content without a reliable source may be removed from wikipedia immediately. I'm removing any info that was based on your alleged "phone book". If you find another source then by all means you can always put it back into the article at a later date with your new source--Steamboat2020 (talk) 16:03, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

@Steamboat2020:It is clear that there are only 11,580 families in Israel before the split in 2019, now you could say that the reference violates copyright protection, but it is clear that it is a reliable source. By all means you could still write that the telephone book states that there is 11,580 families, and you can't post it because of copyright issues, but it is verified 100%.Intellectual Person (talk) 18:12, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

I am adding how many families there are in Israel prior to the split with a reference to the telephone book that was published and confirmed before being deleted because of copyright issues, and there was one person that was prosecutor judge and jury that deleted it.Intellectual Person (talk) 18:18, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

You said that it was created by somebody else, so I reported it on wikicommons as being a potential copyright violation but that isn't the issue here. The issue here is that a spreadsheet listing families allegedly belonging to Ger that could have been created on any home computer and is not available anywhere on the internet or in any library is not an acceptable reference. Wikipedia has rules about what is and isn't acceptable as a reference (see here) If you take a step back and think about it, could you imagine what wikipedia would look like if a document that looked like this "phone book" was an acceptable reference, anybody could create a simple spreadsheet and claim it was an official reliable book! The bottom line is that there are rules on wikipedia and whether you like it or not, the numbers you added are not supported by an acceptable source and can be removed. FIND A BETTER SOURCE otherwise I will keep deleting it. I'm sorry but you wouldn't like it if some editor came along with a microsoft excel spreadsheet that says that Rabbi Shaul Alter has only ten families of followers. So remember that requiring good references can ultimately help your interests as well--Steamboat2020 (talk) 00:53, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

@Steamboat2020:Listen I still think that being the prosecutor judge and jury is not a good thing, maybe let others that aren't involved in this dispute to judge, maybe they can come up with a compromise that way people will understand the context of 500 families versus 100,000 people. If I would be you, I wouldn't keep on waging a war with another person, and wait for someone else to comment and delete the telephone book.

@Intellectual Person: It's not my fault that the Jerusalem Post worded it that way and it's also not my fault that you can't find an acceptable source to give it context. If you want other editors to comment then you need to start a RfC -- see here.--Steamboat2020 (talk) 04:59, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

@Intellectual Person: You are moving in the right direction. Getting creative to build in the information you consider important by rewording it in a manner that is supported by a solid reference is smart editing but there are still two issues you need to correct. #1) The first part of the paragraph is a direct quote from the Jerusalem Post - so you can't just add on a sentence without distinguishing between the quote and the add on. I suggest you write something like "according to.... an average Haredi household consists of ......" #2) Your source is no good because (A) it is specifically discussing American Jewry and (B) the Author follows his estimate by saying "These numbers are, of course, difficult to pin down definitively" - which in essence means they could be wrong! You could use the 2009‐2059 Long‐Range Population Projections for Israel: Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics by Ari Paltiel, Michel Sepulchre, Irene Kornilenko, Martin Maldonado which states "The number of children per woman is 7.2" (it's quoted here:) -- I seems to be a more reliable source (I can't check it because the link to the source is no longer working) -- It would increase the total number of families to 11,111 which is actually more consistent with the "phone book" you initially wanted to use.--Steamboat2020 (talk) 04:07, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I changed the numbers of familes to reflect what was reported by Israel's National Economic Council, a official Israeli government report and it was issued during the same month as the Jerusalem Post's 100,000 person estimate--Steamboat2020 (talk) 00:35, 5 December 2021 (UTC)