Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Surrealist Group in Stockholm

This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was keep. – Rich Farmbrough 23:26, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Surrealist Group in Stockholm

• Delete, Vanity, Advertising and Spam. A non-notable group that is no longer in existence. Note: This group does not provide any credible material to justify notability for an article on Wikipedia.Classicjupiter2 15:22, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • On what basis do you claim they are no longer in existence. You made it up, plain and simple. --Daniel C. Boyer 17:45, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Keep (changed vote per Uppland below. Sorry for the over hasty decision. ) I live in Stockholm and I've certainly never heard of them, looks like vanity, fails to establish notability.--Halidecyphon 15:38, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Delete -- should be a special Speedy for surrealist groups. -- Cleduc 17:41, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • This vote should be discounted as it betrays a prejudice against surrealism, or, at least, surrealist groups. --Daniel C. Boyer 17:45, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • I am not prejudiced against surrealism (or flying mustard cats peeing antimatter). If you've been around VfD for a while, you see these Surrealist Groups a lot, and they're all vanity-vandalism. -- Cleduc 02:09, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. --Daniel C. Boyer 17:45, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • According to Mr. Boyer's note on my vote above, his vote should also be discounted because his user page shows he is an avid surrealist, and therefore prejudiced in favor of surrealism. Of course, votes don't work that way -- you don't have to justify them at all. -- Cleduc 02:16, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Weak keep. I am Swedish and haven't heard of them either, but then there is no reason why I would have heard of every Swedish group of artists or writers. The group still appears to exist.[1] The journal Stora saltet, published 1995-1998, can be verified from the catalogue of the Swedish Royal Library.[2] According to their website, they still publish other stuff under their own imprint, and one member of the group, M. Forshage, has had a collection of poems published by Ellerströms, a small but prestigious Swedish publisher.[3] / Uppland 18:00, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC) PS. See additional comments below:
• Delete Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 18:54, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)
• Weak keep. I ahven't heard of them (I live in STockholm too) but I there are probably quite many notable groups in Stockholm that I never have heard of (hard to guess how many since I never have heard of them :)). This is group could be notable. Jeltz talk 19:42, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Keep Surrealism is always notable. Klonimus 20:34, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • That's why there's an article on surrealism. This group, however, is not. Delete. -- 8^D ^gab 01:52, 2005 Apr 17 (UTC)
    • Cod Liver Oil Klonimus 05:06, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Weak Keep, needs expansion. Slightly more notable (just) than many of the surrealist groups that have come up for vfd in the last few months. Megan1967 05:03, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Provisional keep Would be on more solid ground if any of the "notable" members were of demonstrated such, the article's links weren't all red, etc... Alai 07:29, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Comment: Some additional results from the national library catalogue Libris of the Swedish Royal Library and from Swedish national and regional newspaper text databases:
• Carl-Michael Edenborg is a critic, editor, translator, publisher and historian of ideas and literature. He has written two books:
  • Alkemins skam : den alkemiska traditionens utstötning ur offentligheten ("The shame of alchemy : expulsion of the alchemical tradition from the public sphere"). This was also his Ph.D. dissertation (Univ. of Stockholm 2002) and was awarded with the Paracelsus prize by the Swedish Paracelsus Society (for whatever that is worth).
  • Gull och mull: den monstruöse Gustaf Bonde, upplysningens fiende i frihetstidens Sverige : historien om hans exkrementalkemi, hans krets och värld : försedd med psykoanalytiska, Batailleska och historiematerialistiska reflexioner, samt ett utkast mot döden. (Lund : Ellerström, 1997) (On Gustaf Bonde, a 18th century Swedish politician who was also an alchemist.)
• Edenborg has also edited and translated several other books, been a critic in the national newspaper Aftonbladet, and published articles in respected journals indexed by the Royal Library in their national library catalogue Libris. He owns an apparently somewhat controversial publishing company Vertigo.
• Aase Berg (homepage) has published a few books and also written criticism for notable Swedish literary journals.[4] She has published a couple of books with the Surrealist group's publishing company Surrealistförlaget and Edenborg's Vertigo, but has also had three books published by Bonnier, which is the largest and most prestigious publishing house in Sweden. She is or has been editor of BLM (Bonniers Litterära Magasin), a leading literary journal, and is a critic in daily paper Expressen.
• Mattias Forshage has published a book of poetry, Angående näktergalarna man fann på glaciärisen ("Concerning the nightingales they found on the ice", Ellerströms, Lund 1998, - critics were leaning towards the negative) and has translated/edited other things, among them "Selected romantic fragments" by Friedrich Schlegel and other texts by Georges Bataille and Richard Huelsenbeck. Forshage seems to have been a naturalist for some time (judging from some of the content of his books) and is now apparently working on a Ph.D. in entomology [5].
• Johannes Bergmark (homepage, CV discography) is a composer, musician, sound technician and instrument builder. He was apparently one of 16 persons covered in a book about young Swedish composers by Teddy Hultberg, SoundArt (2001), has been played on national Swedish radio, performed in various concerts, including festivals in London, New York etc. A number of CDs, but I can't judge the significance of these. Has collaborated with Edenborg back in the late 1980s.
• Kajsa Bergh has illustrated a book published at Surrealistförlaget in 1988. No hits in newspaper texts.
• Bruno Jacobs is a poet, editor and translator. Libris has seven titles, not all his alone. Only a few hits in newspaper texts. (BTW, Google shows that there are other many people with this name, including a Swiss classical scholar who seems noteworthy.)
• H. Christian Werner has coedited books with Jacobs. No obviously relevant newspaper hits.

• Conclusion: Although some of these people obviously must have have other day-jobs, as a group they seem to have a fairly large corpus of publications, many in collaboration with one another, and a decent presence in the culture sections of Swedish newspapers. Individually, Carl-Michael Edenborg and Aase Berg probably could deserve articles of their own, if somebody would bother writing them. I don't know what the Wikipedia music guidelines would say about Bergmark. / Uppland 10:06, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Added note on above conclusion: Excellent research Uppland! While it is a fact that these individuals' own accomplishements appear to justify an article on themselves, the issue here is, The Surrealist Group in Stockholm. Granted, each seperate member does have a history of accomplishments outside of this group, but again, the focus here is on the Stockhlom Group as a whole. Yes, Carl and Aase do deserve an article on their own merits, but not this group. This group's collective history does not provide enough credible material to justify an article, that is what must be considered.Classicjupiter2 15:56, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Verifiable artist groups belong in Wikipedia.--Gene_poole 01:13, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Merge from this VfD :) and Keep. Radiant_* 13:49, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. If we are to have articles about bands which are only notable because one or more of their members were notable (even at a later time), it seems unreasonable not to have an article about such a group as this, several of whose members are currently notable. And kudos to Uppland for his research. --Jonathan Christensen 14:50, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Comment: I have now posted articles on Aase Berg and Carl-Michael Edenborg. They can certainly be improved, and I hope someone more knowledgeable about the contemporary Swedish literary scene will come around to do so. / Uppland 16:44, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Remember, the issue here was not to dismiss the notability of the individual members. Each particular member is notable in their own right, but please remember the quality of the research when someone is going to study surrealism after 1966. Let me remind you all again, It is not the individual members that is being considered for VfD, but the article, The Surrealist Group in Stockholm. In your research, can you find enough solid, credible and notable material on The Stockhlom Surrealist Group? That is what I am asking. As for the various individual members own merits and contributions outside of this collective group, that is all great and I fully support any articles on Carl and Aase, but you need to convince me about this group as a whole. Where did they meet? Where did they exhibit their paintings and works, poetry, writings, pamphlets, etc.? Are there any newspaper articles, or any mention of them in any art media or literary media as, "The Surrealist Group in Stockholm"? Do you understand what I am asking? Again, are there any sources that are credible enough that provide information and material on and about, The Surrealist Group in Stockholm? Uppland, you did an excellent job in your research on the individual members, I need to see what you can find on this group as mentioned as, The Surrealist Group in Stockholm? Do you understand?Classicjupiter2 18:01, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Do I find articles which discuss the group as a whole under that name? Yes, I do. However, most articles which mention the group do it just as part of the description of the background of the individual members, as when an article from 2002 mentions that Aase Berg as new editor of BLM has brought with her the traditions from Stora saltet (the journal of the surrealist group) etc. I still think this makes the group significant. (The group appears to have been most active from the late 1980s through mid 1990s and the newspaper texts I have are more complete for later years.) BTW, I found another writer said to belong to the surrealist group, Maja Lundgren (not mentioned in the VfD'd article), a novelist who is also now published by Bonnier's (and who has had a novel translated into several languages and apparently nominated for the prestigious Italian prize Premio Bancarella). / Uppland 20:09, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Excellent research, Uppland. Is there any evidence that they are still active? I could be wrong (and I think that I am in this case) but I think they might have broken up in 1998, with various members going their seperate ways while accomplishing their above mentioned works. Now, the key here is to decide that since there exists a consensus to keep this article, how can we further establish the information about this group in a coherent and chronological manner that will help the student who is studying surrealism after 1966 and comes across this particular group? Uppland, I myself looked at their website, and it is beyond me how little information is on there, since its asserted that they were significant (I still want to debate that if you or anyone can produce more quality information on them, like you already have). You see, I need to know, specifically (and precisely), what newspapers, what media, what publications in Sweden or anywhere, specifically report on The Stockholm Surrealist Group or their publication, Stora saltet while they were active? Uppland, when you say, "an article from 2002 mentions that Aase Berg as new editor of BLM has brought with her the traditions from Stora saltet (the journal of the surrealist group) etc. I still think this makes the group significant", can you tell us is this from a newspaper account on Aase Berg that mentions her past activity in this group, and can this newspaper produce any information on this group? Did she say she was in this group? Granted, when a reporter or any writer is doing a piece on Aase, most likely they will contact her directly and ask her about her and her work (and her past) and get a statement from her, but we as encyclopedia researchers are of a different breed of investigative researchers, if Aase is mentioned in any newpaper account as being a past member of this group, is that all what we have to go on? Research is painstaking and at times often tedious but we must present quality information and facts to the world in this encylcopedia. So again, specifically, what newspapers in Sweden have reported on this group while they were active?Classicjupiter2 22:42, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Again, saying "while they were active" begs a question. On what basis do you claim they are no longer active? --Daniel C. Boyer 18:21, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Daniel, you are a surrealist. Please tell us about this group?Classicjupiter2 00:00, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The admittedly rather superficial research I have done indicates that they are indeed not as active as a group as they were a few years ago (while some individual members are more outwardly visible), but the question here is obviously: why would this matter in any case? Are we to delete the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood or Der Blaue Reiter just because these groups aren't active anymore? / Uppland 19:51, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'll have to admit that I am out on a limb here, as I am not really familiar with the group or very familiar with contemporary Swedish literature in general. Nevertheless, I have tried to expand the article with the help of some newspaper articles, especially one by another writer who has followed the group from the outside almost since its beginning. There are some texts on their website which should also be used in order to describe the self-image of the group, but they are a bit less straightforward, so I have mostly left them outside for the time being. / Uppland 09:01, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The research that you have done has provided more quality information to help save this article. Again, the key issue here is information on and/or about this group, The Surrealist Group in Stockholm and their activity in Surrealism. There is good information on the various individual members of this group, their accomplishments, writings, etc.,etc., but we need to see more information on this group as a whole. I recommend to send an E-mail to an expert on Surrealism, Prof.Mary Ann Caws. She is an expert on surrealism and has written books on surrealism and I think she can lead us into a good direction into this particular group of ex-surrealists.Classicjupiter2 00:00, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I welcome anyone to do the research needed to make this into a featured article, but the article as it currently stands is already good enough for Wikipedia, and I have personally no intention to write a dissertation on the Stockholm surrealist group. Uppland 02:57, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. There is plenty of information on the individual members and their work outside of this group, and that really is not relevant to their work in Surrealism while they were active as The Stockholm Surrealist Group. I agree to keep the article, but there needs to be only relevant information on their work in Surrealism, not what they did after this group broke up.Classicjupiter2 03:18, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The point of VfD is just to decide whether an article is good enough to not be deleted, that's all. Further improvement should be discussed elsewhere. You are welcome to contact Prof. Caws, if you think she can help with that. Uppland 06:29, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You are telling me something that I already know. I do not need to contact Prof.Mary Ann Caws, you do! In the meantime, there is a lot of information that you added to the article that needs to be taken out. If you are going to research Surrealism, then research Surrealism! Not what people have done after they abandoned Surrealism! The article is on The Stockholm Surrealist Group.Classicjupiter2 15:10, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Keep ~leif ☺ _(talk) 18:49, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. We've seen bunches of these articles on such dime-a-dozen groups. Postdlf 03:29, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.