Talk:Venkateswara

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Rename article as Venkateshvara[edit]

I propose that the article be renamed as, "Venkateshvara" in order to standardise the spelling. If you agree, please make your consent known below so that we can act on this change. Chronikhiles (talk) 09:27, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok 2401:4900:8093:1944:5F68:1CDC:98A3:5BB3 (talk) 13:10, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Chronikhiles I agree based on WP:CRITERIA and WP:CONSISTENT. I'm seeing it spelled both ways in reliable English sources [1] [2] [3], so opting for consistency to match the standardized spelling with other similar article titles would make sense. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 20:03, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What other articles are you all taking about? — DaxServer (t · m · c) 20:06, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm referring to other names of articles that are also spelled both ways such as Alvars or Alwars, Sarasvati River or Saraswati River, Bhuvaneshvari or Bhuvaneshwari, Ishvara or Ishwara, Svarga or Swarga and etc. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 02:25, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Same rationale as @Eucalyptusmint. I would like to ask @Rasnaboy and @Dāsānudāsa for their opinion on this. Chronikhiles (talk) 03:15, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support whatever is consistent, so wouldn't oppose a move to Venkateshvara. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 08:34, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"W" spellings are what I think I've come across frequently so far for these terms (such as "Venkateshwara", "Saraswathi", "Bhuvaneshwari", "Ishwara" etc.). However, I admit that I'm not speaking statistically but only based on my superficial observations. That said, I would like to go by consistency and I agree with the proposed change. Rasnaboy (talk) 09:22, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Saraswati" alone has so many variations. We've got Saraswati, but Sarasvati River, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, Jayendra Saraswathi, etc. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 10:46, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed and perhaps more of a reason to adopt a consistent style of spelling, whether "V" or "W", for such entries since we are building an encyclopedia. Also, the last two that you mentioned look like names of people, so I feel that it wouldn't be applicable to them since they are official names. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 19:21, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I believe WP:CONSISTENT and WP:COMMONNAME conflict when it comes to this conversation. @DougWeller @Materialscientist Could you help us arrive at a consensus moving forward? Chronikhiles (talk) 05:50, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just on the last point, their 'official' names are in Bengali and Tamil, respectively. We are transcribing them to the Roman alphabet, which can be done in numerous ways, and you often see "Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati", with a W, for example. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 11:18, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Dāsānudāsa Thanks for that clarification, I was mistaken, I see that their official names are different than their given names and was actually referring to their given names in my comment. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 19:20, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hellomesu You are correct that Venkateswara is the WP:COMMONNAME, but the discussion we had regarding the name change achieved consensus according to WP:CONSISTENT. The fact of the matter is that the W sound does not exist in Sanskrit, which is what encouraged me to initiate this discussion in the first place. I do believe that accuracy is important in an encyclopedia. Chronikhiles (talk) 01:50, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Chronikhiles I'm a life long devotee of Venkateswara. This is the first time in my life someone is using "Venkateshvara" rather than "Venkateswara". Upon searching the internet, "Venkateshvara" is a rarity. Even Google search autocorrects to "Venkateswara". The Tirupati temple website (https://www.tirumala.org/srk1.aspx) and nearly all the hindu temples use "W" rather than "V". Using V insteading of W just leads to more confusion. Hence, I feel we should just leave it as "W" and not use "V". Hellomesu (talk) 01:39, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Chronikhiles based on everyone's comments so far, to me, it seems that we are all in agreement that we support whichever option is the most consistent. I noticed that you've also proposed a similar change (standardizing name) to the Padmavathi article. Since this has implication to other articles as well it might be beneficial to get others' opinions as well through something like a RfC. Am also open to other ideas, what do you all think? Eucalyptusmint (talk) 19:42, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Eucalyptusmint Got it, I was just waiting to see if others would like to chip in as well. Regarding the Padmavathi article, I later found that Padmavati exists as a disambiguation page. I was unsure as to how to proceed in that regard. Would Padmavati (goddess) be an appropriate title? Chronikhiles (talk) 04:45, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To everyone involved: Since Venkateshvara is currently a redirect to Venkateswara, I am unable to move the article myself. I have requested technical assitance towards the same. Chronikhiles (talk) 05:02, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the MOS says to avoid clarifiers in brackets in favour of unique titles, so I think Padmavathi would be preferred to Padmavati (goddess), because the latter requires disambiguation. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 08:14, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Dāsānudāsa Noted. Chronikhiles (talk) 11:49, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Chronikhiles. @Dāsānudāsa are you referring to WP:TITLEDAB? Eucalyptusmint (talk) 18:48, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's the one! Or WP:NATURAL specifically. "Adding a disambiguating term in parentheses after the ambiguous name is Wikipedia's standard disambiguation technique when none of the other solutions lead to an optimal article title (emphasis mine). Dāsānudāsa (talk) 09:06, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ah okay, I see what you mean. Thanks! Eucalyptusmint (talk) 14:13, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The page name should be Venkateswara as per WP:COMMONNAME. Even TTD, the official management group of Tirupati temple always uses Venkateswara. Reo kwon (talk) 10:53, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Reo kwon, it's spelled both ways according to reliable sources (I've mentioned them above) and as a result, there was consensus to opt for consistency since there is WP:DIVIDEDUSE of the spelling. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 23:34, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Venkateswara is the standrad spelling. Venkteshvara can be added as a variant spelling. The official source Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanam overwhelmingly uses Venkateswara. In Andhra Pradesh, where the temple is located, English language sources predominantly use Venkateswara. People should note that it is not a pure Sanskrit name, but rather a Sanskritized Telugu/Tamil name. We use the spelling Rameswaram as the page title for the pilgrimage site, rather than Rameshvaram as per IAST Sanskrit transliteration. Similarly, the name of this article should be Venkateswara as per WP:COMMONNAME, with Venkteshvara listed as an alternative spelling.
And, as regards consistency, most Hindu temples in Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu consistently use w instead of v, and s instead of sh in English spellings of the temples and Gods. Some of the most famous and prominent temples include Srikalahasteeswara temple, Bhimeswara Temple, Draksharamam, Ksheera Ramalingeswara Temple, Someswara Temple, Kumararama Bhimeswara, Samarlakota, Amareswara Temple, Amaravati, Bugga Ramalingeswara temple, Pallikondeswara Temple, Surutapalli, Kukkuteswara Temple, Jaladheeswara Temple, Sangameswara Temple, Someswara Swamy Temple, Appikonda and many more.
And, there are thousands of Venkateswara temples in every nook and corner of Andhra. And the vast majority of them overwhelmingly and consistently use Venkateswara as the standard spelling. Some of the most famous ones include Venkateswara Temple, Dwaraka Tirumala, Venkateswara Temple, Tenali, Narapura Venkateswara Temple, Jammalamadugu, Prasanna Venkateswara Temple, Appalayagunta, Kalyana Venkateswara Temple, Narayanavanam. Even major temples outside India consistently use Venkateswara. For example, Sri Venkateswara Temple, Pittsburgh, Sri Venkateswara Temple (New Jersey), Sri Venkateswara Swami (Balaji) Temple in Greater Chicago, Sri Venkateswara Temple of North Carolina, Sri Venkateswara Temple of Central Ohio, Sri Venkateswara Lotus Temple, Fairfax, Sri Venkateswara Temple of Austin, Sri Venkateswara Swamy Temple of Colorado, Lakshmi Venkateswara Temple, Seattle, VEDA Sri Venkateswara Temple, Sri Venkateswara (Balaji) Temple, Minnesota, Sri Dasavathara Venkateswara Swami Temple Columbia, Malibu Sri Venkateswara Hindu Temple California, Sri Venkateswara Temple Of Texas, Shri Venkateswara (Balaji) Temple of UK, Shri Venkateswara Balaji Temple in Tividale, UK, Sri Venkateswara Temple (SVT) Sydney, Sri Venkateswara Hindu Temple Hamilton, Sri Venkateswara Swamy Temple of Wellington, Sri Prasanna Venkateswara Temple - Mauritius.
As can be seen from the numerous examples above, Venkateswara is by far the most common and consistent spelling of the deity. I can provide further examples of hundreds of temples in towns and villages of Andhra where Venkateswara is the common spelling as per English-language sources like newspapers, directories, district gazetteers, travel guides, Google Maps location info, etc. The page has been hastily moved and without significant discussion. By moving it to Venkateshvara, the page has been made inconsistent with dozens of other famous temples of the deity and also with the page names of the most other famous temples in Andhra. It should be moved back to Venkateswara as per the overwhelming evidence that Venkateswara is not only the official but also the most common and consistent selling as per diverse English-language sources across the globe. Reo kwon (talk) 09:45, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I can see the point you're trying to make, however the names you've listed are names of temples which are official names of places. This discussion is about the deity whose name is spelled two different ways in reliable english and academic sources and therefore there's WP:DIVIDEDUSE. So to say that Venkateswara is the official spelling isn't entirely true otherwise we would see this reflected in WP:RS where only that version of the spelling is consistently used. But it's not, as can be seen in this source by oxford university press where it's spelled with a v and in this one by routledge where it's spelled with a w. Additionally, the previous consensus was reached based on WP:CONSISTENT (which I'd encourage you to take a peek at when you have a moment because it doesn't have to do with how names are spelled locally). And while I still support the move based on that policy, am open to hear others' thoughts as well. Thanks. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 19:51, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
however the names you've listed are names of temples which are official names of places.
Who do you think these temples are named after? Jesus, Shiva, Zoroaster, Buddha, Moses, Indra, Varuna, Agni, Poleramma? I wrote a very, very elaborate comment documenting over 40 cases of the world's largest temples dedicated to the deity all consistently and overwhelmingly referring to the deity as Venkateswara. Reo kwon (talk) 08:39, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with @Reo kwon that the use of Venkateswara is pretty consistent across the world and is used by the Tirupati temple where Venkateswara is the deity. This discussion is the first place to I heard Venkateshvara. We should use Venkateswara for this page. Hellomesu (talk) 09:07, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@UtherSRG Please see the above discussion. I have provided very detailed evidence from 40 of the largest temples of the deity from across the world. All of them consistently and overwhelmingly use the spelling Venkateswara for the deity. Also, note that the spelling with w and s is standard for most Andhra/South Indian deities as I have documented with dozens of examples from famous temples of other Hindu deities from Andhra. By moving the page to Venkateshvara, it has been made inconsistent with dozens of other famous temples of the deity and also with the page names of most other Hindu deities of Andhra/South India.
In light of the above evidence, and the lack of other convincing arguments, as per the WP:CONSISTENT and WP:COMMONNAME policies, please move the page back to the title Venkateswara. Reo kwon (talk) 07:43, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please open a formal WP:RM discussion. This will allow the discussion to be known by various projects that may have concern over the naming. - UtherSRG (talk) 10:46, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 10 June 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Even subtracting the suspected canvassed !votes, I still see a consensus to move. (closed by non-admin page mover) CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 19:33, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Venkateshvara → Venkateswara – Move RM as suggested by UtherSRG above for wider discussion. Redtigerxyz Talk 16:40, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Will check on Books usage once, before affirming my view. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:06, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Inviting User:Chronikhiles, User:Eucalyptusmint, User:Rasnaboy, User:Dāsānudāsa, User:Hellomesu, UtherSRG - participants in the above discussion.--Redtigerxyz Talk 17:11, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject QRpedia, WikiProject Hinduism, WikiProject Mythology, WikiProject India, WikiProject Religion, and WikiProject Nepal have been notified of this discussion. UtherSRG (talk) 20:43, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I would oppose this change per WP:CONSISTENT. I understand that Venkateshvara is not the WP:COMMONNAME on this encyclopedia, but the present title is consistent with other articles on this website such as Ishvara, Ishvari, and Bhuvaneshvari. Venkateshvara might not be commonly used in newspapers, but it is widely employed in scholarly works on Hinduism (examples: 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5). Chronikhiles (talk) 07:53, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support for move to Venkateswara since Venkateswara is the name used by main Tirupati temple.[5] and is used by nearly all the temples as the name of the deity. There are a number of scholarly works on Hinduism that use Venkateswara too (examples 1, 2, 3, 4, 5). Hellomesu (talk) 08:00, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose for reasons I've already mentioned in the discussions above. Still on the fence about if there is an actual official spelling, because it would otherwise be consistently spelled that way by scholars, i.e. Diana Eck here [6]. On the flip side this isn't the case for the temple's name which is consistently being spelled the same across sources, even if that source spells the deity's name with a v. Also @Hellomesu, this isn't a scholarly source, it's a comic series and interestingly, the third source above, in the google page info in the "About this edition" and "About the work" sections it's spelled Venkatesvara. Also @Redtigerxyz jw/curious Venkateswara is also used as a last name/publisher name, would the Ngrams and Trends include these? Eucalyptusmint (talk) 15:32, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support. As I have clearly documented Venkateswara is the most apt title for the page as per the WP:CONSISTENT and WP:COMMONNAME policies.
Venkateswara is consistent with the spellings Srikalahasteeswara, Bhimeswara, Ksheera Ramalingeswara, Someswara, Bhimeswara, Amareswara, Ramalingeswara, Pallikondeswara Temple, Kukkuteswara, Jaladheeswara, Sangameswara, Someswara and numerous other names of Hindu deities across South India. Reo kwon (talk) 18:36, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Very Strong Support for move to Venkateswara since Venkateswara is the name used by main Tirupati temple trust (TTD).[7] and is used by nearly all the temples as the name of the deity. All Hindu deities are named using Swara. There are a number of scholarly works on Hinduism that use Venkateswara too (examples 1, 2, 3, 4, 5). Fostera12 (talk) 08:18, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support. Venkateswara is the spelling used by the main temple at Tirupati. It is not only the most visited Hindu temple but also the most visited religious site in the world. Ideally, this should seal the deal. Even if we look at other famous temples of the deity, all of them use Venkateswara pretty consistently (as per above posts). This very clearly establishes that Venkateswara is the WP:COMMONNAME for the deity.
Furthermore, Venkateswara is also widely used in various academic sources. For example, in books: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22. In academic journals: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. Nikh Nori (talk) 13:10, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Expressing concern that Nikh Nori and Fostera12 have been canvassed to this discussion, diff 1 and diff 2. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 00:52, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Facts are facts, no canvassing required to prove facts. Thanks. Fostera12 (talk) 04:13, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I would have commented the exact same thing if I had come across the page by myself. Venkateswara is the family deity of most Andhra people and changing the name used by tens of millions of devout devotees across the world would mean your position would be contradicted by facts, with or without canvassing. Also, your comment seems ad-hominem presuming that people don't have agency and would simply fall for pleas. Nikh Nori (talk) 13:24, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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