Talk:Fencing/Archive 1

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Untitled

Does anybody else find the section on care of electrical equipment 1) Not written in an encyclopediac style and 2) Belonging in a new entry? I mean, the entry on fencing ought to be about the sport, and informative to people learning about it. It isn't a how-to or instruction manual. I won't say an entry on "Electrical Fencing Equipment Care" is entirely amiss, but it doesn't seem encyclopedic to me. Kd5mdk 05:34, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Not only is it not encyclopedic, but I'm guessing it was cribbed directly from a copyrighted text. It looks like the kind of thing you'd find in a "user-friendly" guide to equipment maintenance and repair. It is probably therefore a copyvio and should be deleted, but I'd prefer to do that after positively identifying the source. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:02, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
It's possible the text was added by Strydermike as it appears to be in his style and may represent an older version of his web page on the subject. If this is true then it isn't a copyvio, but your original point stands. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:29, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree, the article is long enough as it is without the section on care of equipment. Thesquire 09:54, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Should the article perhaps be split in two, one on modern sport fencing, and one on classical fencing?


Edited

November 29, 2004

This is incorrect:

Like the épée, sabres originate from more deadly backgrounds. However, in the original fights with sabers, slashing was considered a mounted way of attacking while thrusting with the tip was considered a more deadly, but slower, way of attacking. Early in sword history, it was concluded a stab wound, although smaller, is much more damaging and deadly than a simple slash, except where the removal of body parts is concerned, where blood loss may be more deadly than a stab to an organ. However, in mounted combat, to stab an opponent would mean the loss of the weapon, so a curved blade that could easily slide into the opponent and out, causing a laceration, was much more ideal. The saber's point may have been meant for combat on the ground, if the rider was dismounted, voluntarily or forcibly.

-KM

Edited March 13, 2004

Cleaned up some history - the last IP is mine. KM.

Edited last April 10 2003, Ken Mondschein, editor@corporatemofo.com

I think "sabre" is a more usual spelling, at least in the US. I didn't get a redirect when I looked it up on Wikipedia. Google gives 91,700 for the -re spelling versus 69,000 for -er (with "sword" to weed out irrelevancy, so there are doubtlessly Type I errors. --Calieber 03:24, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The American Heritage Dictionary says "saber" is the preferred American spelling, and "sabre" is chiefly British. -- Ortonmc 03:33, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)
In common usage, that may be the case. However, in Fencing one is more likely to use the more traditional spelling "sabre", just like one is likely to acent "épée". Observe that the American USFA itself uses these traditional spellings, the American Heritage Dictionary notwithstanding. — Miguel 20:17, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

TWO METER RAPIERS?? That entire paragraph was nonsense and was deleted. The claim about rapier duels invariably or usually being fought "to one point" is also a bunch of fantasy. Having read many a duel account, it is quite apparent that rapier duels were probably NEVER fought to "one touch". Instead, they went on until one combatant or the other surrendered or was unable to continue.

damn, that's lame. two meter rapiers sound pretty exciting. ✈ James C. 16:03, 2004 Aug 12 (UTC)

One Hit Épée

There is a variant of epee that is popular at least in the UK - the one hit epee competition. The idea is that you fence everyone in the competition, but only the first hit counts, then you move on to the next person. Double hits count as double losses - you don't get a point for it. In many ways it resembles more the original dueling aspect of fencing. This is also the type of fencing included in the Modern Pentathlon. Shall I include a brief paragraph about it in this article? HispanoCelt 11:10, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Ortonmc 05:25, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

One hit epee is also the fencing part of the pentathelon.

Notable classical fencers and fencing masters

Which of these are notable classical fencers and fencing masters and why? Let's see which are real and which are vanity. - Tεxτurε 20:45, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, for what it's worth, I think Nick Evangelista is certainly prominent. I've heard of Chris Umbs, but can't speak to his actual notability. Kd5mdk 8 July 2005 23:17 (UTC)

Problem is, this list includes some wuo are classical fencers, not the modern sport (Olympic) type this page is really aimed at...Evengelista being a notable example.


Electronic scoring equipment

Added "The rule changes have been controversial, primarily on two accounts: some argue that "flicks" or "whip-hits" are a valid method of scoring a touch, and others contend that the changes cause scoring anomalies where touchs which have obviously landed do not register." to the section on the foil timing change. For "only the most expensive contests bother to ground the piste", I would say at least 50% of competitions I've been to do this, likely closer to 80%. Does anyone have a source on this?

I wouldn't say "only the most expensive", but I'd say 50% is more right. I've edited that to make it a little more clear. Certainly 80% do not if we count local competitions. However, any serious tournament will have at least some grounded strips. I know the largest tournament in Texas gets by with 4. I also corrected the sentence on "wireless" scoring, which does not actually use transmitters at all. The official lights are mounted on the fencers masks, and it has only been adopted for sabre. Lights connected by a transmitter are for spectator information only and not considered by the officials. Kd5mdk 07:55, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

footwork and maneuvers?

  • parry (all types)
  • riposte
  • fleche
  • advance, retreat?

no section explaining these items?

If you feel a change is needed, feel free to make it yourself! Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone — including you — can edit any article by clicking the edit this page tab at the top of the page. You don't even need to log in, although there are several reasons why you might want to. Wikipedia convention is to be bold and not be afraid of making mistakes. If you're not sure how editing works, have a look at How to edit a page, or try out the Sandbox to test your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. --fvw* 14:17, 2004 Dec 24 (UTC)
I'm feeling lazy, and don't wish to lookup the formatting needed to setup a page. However, if somebody wanted to create a page about Fencing moves, Actions, Priority (not Right of Way) or something, I'd be happy to contribute. Kd5mdk 8 July 2005 23:17 (UTC)
  • Working on it now... Glossary of Fencing Terms Daev 08:04, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Done! It is still very rough and needs some attention. I will read it through eventually to see if everything seems right. Please feel free to fix it up and contribute : ) Daev 09:10, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

other notes

  • Points of attack and engagement.

The new FIE timings have not prevented flick attacks, but have made it considerably harder to score even a direct hit. Annoying. Also made some notes at Talk:Epee

I changed it a bit, see Electronic Scoring Equipment, above

Also, the article [electronic scoring] states that foil and epee have a microswitch which makes a circuit. This is technically incorrect. At epee, the microswitch makes a circuit. At foil, the switch breaks the circuit, thus there is no travel measurement for foil as there is for epee.

S.

Well...actually, there IS a travel for foil (it's still on the books...rule M.11(4)..1mm), but it hasen't been enforced for years...I doubt most fencers are even aware of it.

  • Following the great social revolutions of the late eighteenth century, gentlemen no longer commonly wore swords, and so the épée, carried to the field of honour in a case, was developed as a means of settling disputes.

The epée has no historical basis other than resembling a rapier. The author must have been confused; the epée is and always has been a weapon used in modern times for the sport of fencing. I've removed the previous statement, but correct me if I'm wrong. --SunWuKong 06:52, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's debatable. "Épée" is just the ordinary French word for "sword", and other histories I've seen trace its ancestry from the European small sword -- as the linked article implies. It at least shared the triangular cross-section in the blade. TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:42, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

This sounds wrong...

"In the modern, occasionally used practice of "flicking," the flat of the blade strikes the air, bending the tip forwards to strike the opponent on his or her back. "

Blade striking the air? I don't think so. At least at the club that I go to, foil fencers flick by getting real close to their opponent (by parrying or sometimes even binding the other's blade) and reaching over and slapping the foil at an angle on the opponent's back. This is also how our coach (former NCAA fencer) flicks. Anyone disagree?

Also... I myself am a sabre fencer and, I've always heard that sabre originated from the Hungarian cavalry. The reason that the target area is waist and above is because cavalrymen ride on horses (you don't want to injure the horse). Comments? Peaceman 2 July 2005 21:24 (UTC)


I think that the wording can use some clearing up but I think that the general ideas is correct. The weapon functions as a whip. I know about the flicks you mentioned... but I have seen flicks performed in other ways such as whipping the blade on an opponents parry four/three... in sabre this works really well as the arm is target. I've often seen it counted as a mal paree. I've also seen them done if foil where a fencer doesn't need to be in close combat with the opponent and the hits are usually on the shoulders. Hope this helps.

--rkstaylor 15:19, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

The sabre isn't particularly Hungarian, although the Hungarian Hussars used it as did most other Eurpoean cavalry after the 17th century. Although it was the Hungarians who introduced it to Europe, they themselves got it from the Turkish scimitar, and the weapon was really made famous by the Polish Hussars who, more than the Hungarian, inspired the development of this kind of cavalry across Europe. We associate the sabre with Hungary because of that country's dominance in the weapon for much of the 20th century, but the style for which they were known was brought there by Italo Santelli. TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:05, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Consolidated Article on Fencing Actions?

I was looking at the entries on remise, redoublement, riposte, etc, and it occurred to me that rather than leaving them undefined, stuck in wiktionary, or verbosely described in an attempt to make them wikipedia worthy, we might combine all of them and other terms into a single entry on fencing actions. What do people think of that? Kd5mdk 03:08, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Gauntlets

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm almost positive that it's still required for sabre fencers to wear a gauntlet on their weapon hand. It stops at the wrist, though, and does not cover the hand itself. Peaceman 20:28, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it a gauntlet, because to me that sounds like a piece of metal armor to protect the hand. Sabre fencers are required to have an "overglove" or "manchette", which guarentees that the target area extends down to the bones at the top of the wrist (name forgotten). Sleeves of the lame are not sufficient. This requirement can be met in two ways: 1) by having a tubular piece of elastic & conductive material which overlaps the lame and regular fencing glove, or 2) a special sabre glove which replaces the regular one and has conductive material built into it. In any event, this stuff probably best belongs in a specific article on sabre fencing. Kd5mdk 06:31, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Right, okay. I have one of those special sabre gloves...it's pretty sweet. Well thanks, I just wanted to clear that up. Peaceman 00:09, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

A minor correction on the manchette...when the back of the hand was removed as target a few years back, you COULD get away with a simple lame sleeve that started at the wrist and was long enough to make contact with the rest of the lame. However, within a year the requirement was changed...you must have the old part that covered the back of the hand (although that part is now non-conductive) and you have to have the fingerloop to hold it in place.

The reason? Safety...and for the same reason the cuff of the glove must cover at least half the forearm...to keep a blade from going up the sleeve.

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Semi-protected edit request on 1 December 2018

Change the subject page's title to "Sport Fencing". The subjects referred to on this page are all sport fencing categories, and calling the entire page simply "fencing" is misleading towards all other categories of weapons combat. 24.68.73.9 (talk) 19:46, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. - FlightTime (open channel) 19:51, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 December 2018

In section 3.2 Protective clothing, pls change the last sentence of the first para to "However, Kevlar is degraded by both ultraviolet light and chlorine, which can complicate cleaning."

Kevlar does not contain chlorine/chloride. The error was introduced with this edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fencing&diff=next&oldid=701196549

I switched the order and added "both" which should prevent this from recurring.

Thx 121.44.184.116 (talk) 03:04, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

 Done. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 05:40, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 January 2019

I would like to edit an article on fencing because I found a mistake in the gear section that has changed over time. Oliverwachtel (talk) 00:48, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. DannyS712 (talk) 01:08, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 March 2020

Remove the redundancy in the lead paragraph. In the second sentence it lists the 3 disciplines being Foil, Epee, and Sabre, but near the end of the paragraph, it reintroduces and relists the 3 disciplines as if we didn't just read them at the beginning of the lead. --Lucas Nicholson (talk) 03:45, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Are the sources written by a diverse spectrum of authors? Do they include historically marginalized individuals where possible?

As a general reader, there is not any historically marginalized individuals present and there is mostly a focus on the Olympics implementing fencing. I may suggest showing how was used in many ways and was beyond sword-ship. Funmi.Ajani (talk) 16:17, 6 November 2020 (UTC)FAjaniFunmi.Ajani (talk) 16:16, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mgujral97.

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"Fencing is believed to have originated in Spain"

So we are ignoring all the German and Italian fencing manuals that predate the earliest Spanish works by a long shot? 87.188.173.99 (talk) 17:02, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Overview of play needed

I think that this article needs a very short overview of how a fencing match is conducted, near the beginning of the article. It was only when I watched some videos that I discovered that the action stops when one of the fencers makes a touch (as opposed to, say, a timed bout where the fencers can score repeatedly). This is a really fundamental point that helps the reader quickly get a picture of how the sport works. It shouldn't be buried among other details.

No doubt there are subtleties to do with the difference fencing disciplines, but the overview could cover what is common.

As I knew nothing about fencing 20 minutes ago, I'm not qualified to write the overview, but what I had in mind would be something like this (square brackets are where the correct terms need to be inserted) :

"A fencing match or [ ] consists of a sequence of sections called [ ]. Each [ ] lasts until one fencer makes a touch on the other fencer, thereby scoring a point. (What qualifies as a touch depends upon the discipline). The winner is the first fencer to reach a certain number of points [or whatever the system is]."

Macboff (talk) 12:15, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

HEMA

Somewhere in the article, maybe just the see also, needs to be mention of Historical European Martial Arts (HEMA) as it is also a sport that evolved from European melee combat. Jasoninkid (talk) 01:58, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Please add ..

as a second paragraph, under the Rules subsection ...

After the Olga Kharlan handshaking incident in 2023, the International Fencing Federation changed its rules so that the previously required handshakes between fencers at the end of a bout would become optional, with a distance greeting permitted instead.[1][2] 2603:7000:2101:AA00:B0BF:8283:1FD9:6339 (talk) 07:02, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

I was going to suggest adding this to Fencing rules instead but I see you've already done it. I think it's right to keep the Rules section on this article as short as possible given that that page exists. Garnet-Septagon (talk) 13:15, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "FIE agrees to make handshake optional after Kharlan controversy". Inside the Games. 29 July 2023.
  2. ^ "International Fencing Federation decides to cancel mandatory handshake". Ukrainska Pravda. Retrieved 2023-07-29.

Equipment and Techniques sections: TMI?

The majority of Fencing#Techniques is a simple list of techniques that already exist on Glossary of fencing. I question whether they really add value to this article (WP:TMI), and I suggest removal of the list.

Similarly, Fencing#Electric equipment contains details such as "A body cord consists of three wires known as the A, B, and C lines. At the reel connector (and both connectors for Épée cords) The B pin is in the middle, the A pin is 1.5 cm to one side of B, and the C pin is 2 cm to the other side of B.", as well as a run-through of how the current flows depending on the hit, and lists of equipment. Again I think this is WP:TMI and as per WP:RF doesn't convey information that the vast majority of readers will find useful or interesting. I suggest removing this subsection and putting any essential information into the other parts of Fencing#Equipment, such as mentioning the body wire and noting that only electric weapons can be used in electric fencing.

I do also personally think that Fencing#Protective clothing as a whole is very dry in its current form but don't have any suggestions on how to improve it.

As these would be fairly large changes I wanted to post here instead of just going ahead and doing them. Thoughts welcome. Garnet-Septagon (talk) 14:55, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 October 2023

Change "within a close enough interval of milliseconds" to "within 300 ms (± 25 ms tolerance)." This is in the foil section. [1] FirefighterTony (talk) 14:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Material Rules, Fédération Internationale d'Escrime, Pg. 84. Aug. 2023. https://static.fie.org/uploads/31/159486-book%20m%20ang.pdf
 Done Maproom (talk) 07:55, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
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