Talk:Pidgin

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Suggest merging Pigin English into Pidgin[edit]

Should Pigin English be megerd into Pidgin ?? Cardamon 03:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No. Even if the two articles discussed the same thing, Pigin English is so poorly formed that it's worth deleting altogether. I'd suggest no redirect but I see that Pidgin English redirects here so then I guess just a redirect. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 04:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I propose the same thing. Pigin English should be merged into this article, or it should be deleted and redirected here. — Amcaja 08:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. This article (Pidgin) is, and should be, about Pidgins in general. Pigin English is perhaps poorly named, but is evidently specifically about West African Pidgin English. We probably need an article on West African Pidgin English, describing the relationships of Nigerian Pidgin, Kamtok, and others, but in any case, those are distinct from Pidgin as a general language form. bikeable (talk) 08:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That makes sense. There doesn't appear to be much worth salvaging from Pigin English, though, and West African Pidgin English is already much longer than the offending article. Perhaps it's enough to just blank Pigin English and turn it into a redirect to Pidgin. — Amcaja 22:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it should be a blank redirect, but to Pidgin English rather than Pidgin. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 22:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Pidgin English just redirects to Pidgin, though. — Amcaja 22:52, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, my bad. All right, full speed ahead. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 22:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a problem with that. Cardamon 23:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Seeing that most of Pigin English is about the Cameroonian variety, I think it makes most sense to merge the content to Cameroonian Pidgin English. Most of the info doesn't look too bad, though the thing about West African Pidgin English being derived from the speech of Caribbean missionaries is quite off track.
We'll need sources. The bit about CPE being 'demonized in academic circles' I can source to Kishani 1994 'Language problems in anglophone Cameroon: present writers and future readers', Quest, 8, 2, 101-129 (obviously, it will need to be reworded a bit).
There was an article about CPE in a recent edition of African Study Monographs. Haven't read it yet, but here's the reference:
  • Neba, Fogwe Chibaka, and Atindogbe (2006) 'Cameroon Pidgin English (CPE) as a tool for empowerment and national development', in African Study Monographs, vol. 27, 2, 39-61.
My 2 cents. — mark ✎ 19:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think that what is on the page is not relevant. The question is what is somebody trying to get when they type in "pigin English." Since it's been determined that someone who's looking for "pidgin English" ought to be redirected here, I think that should be the same for pigin English. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 20:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So, sounds like merge info to Cameroonian Pidgin English and then redirect page to Pidgin is the best course of action. — Amcaja 22:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I agree with Brian. I was talking about the info, not about the title. — mark ✎ 08:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I just looked at Pigin English again, and I don't know where to start. I'm going to have to leave this one to someone who knows a bit more about the subject, unfortunately. — Amcaja (talk) 09:42, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No article about a certain Pidgin should be merged into this. Pidgin is a type of language (or more accurately a quasi-language), and each type of pidgin is different. It would be like merging creole articles into Creole language. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 20:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please read the discussion above carefully. The proposal is to merge the information from Pigin English (which is related to Cameroon) to Cameroonian Pidgin English and then to redirect Pigin English to this page. — Amcaja (talk) 22:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I know, I just want to make it clear that I oppose the original idea, in case it wasn't dead yet. In the case of English Pidgin, I think that the appropriate information should be merged into Cameroonian Pidgin English and that the page be rewritten to cover all English-based pidgins, such as Tok Pisin (before it became a creole), West African Pidgin English, etc. It mistakenly indicates that there is only one English pigin, which is not true. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 23:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Disambig page needed?[edit]

Seems like with three other possible meanings perhaps a disambiguation page would be appropriate? --Frantik 10:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Most notably Gaim's new name as of 6th April 07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.159.111.213 (talk • contribs)
Support, it's looking kinda messy with 3 links to articles with similar names. Suggest renaming this article to Pidgin (contact language). --LorianTC 17:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support, agree but perhaps article should be renamed to Pidgin (language) instead? Clicketyclack 22:52, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Another possibility is Pidgin (linguistics) Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 04:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Re-read the lead, Pidgin (language) sounds good to me. --LorianTC 08:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from article[edit]

I removed the following from the article as I don't think it's relevant to the general article on pidgins, but some of it could be salvaged for more specific articles.

Certain expressions survive from Chinglish, a pidgin formerly spoken in Southeast Asia. They have made their way into colloquial English[citation needed]. Many expressions are literal translations from Cantonese grammar. These include, in English (Chinese character and Cantonese pinyin) format:

  • long time no see (好耐冇見 hao2 noi6 mou5 gin3): we have not seen each other for some time (used as a greeting)
  • look-see (睇見 tai2 gin3): look and see
  • no can do (唔得做 m4 dak1 zou6): cannot do
  • no-go (唔去 m4 heoi3): do not go.

Spanglish is not a pidgin of Spanish and English but an example of code-switching because it occurs only among bilingual speakers and retains grammatical and phonological properties of both languages. So is Goleta English, a combined Spanish and English code-switch as it is spoken by Puerto Ricans, either occasionally when in the island, or daily as immigrants in the United States.

Arabizi An English and Arabic Pidgin, derived from Arabic, and the Arabic word for English (inglizi), and is most spoken among the younger Arab population, quite common in Jordan.

Fanagalo is a Southern African pidgin used to communicate among speakers of many different languages, primarily while underground in the country's gold mines.

Caribbean pidgins[edit]

Caribbean pidgins were the result of colonialism. As tropical islands were colonised their society was restructured, with a ruling minority of some European nation and a large mass of non-European laborers. The laborers, natives, slaves or cheap immigrant workers, would often come from many different language groups and would need to communicate. This led to the development of pidgins. These pidgins have since died out although some, such as Haitian Creole, Jamaican Patois, and Papiamento, have become creole languages.

Pacific pidgins[edit]

The Melanesian pidgins may have originated off their home islands, in the 19th century when the islanders were abducted for indentured labour. Hence they were developed by Melanesians for use between each other, not by the colonists on whose language they are based. English provides the basis of most of the vocabulary, but the grammar follows closely that of Melanesian languages: hence the use of at least three numbers in pronouns, singular, dual and plural (Bislama also has a trial), and the distinction between inclusive and exclusive we. Tok Pisin has words from German, and Bislama from French. All also adopt words from local languages. When words are adopted, not only the sound and the meaning, but also the emotional content can change. In some famous examples, "bagarap" (not working, out of action, from "bugger up") is a polite word. "As" (from "ass/arse") is a respectable Tok Pisin word for "foundation". "Wikit" (Solomons Pijin for pagan, from "wicked") has no connotations of evil.

Several expressions commonly used to exemplify Melanesian pidgins have no known basis in actual use. They include "bigfala bokis garem plande tit, iu hitim hemi kraeout" (E: a big box with plenty of teeth, hitting it, it cries out) for a piano, and "miksmasta bilong Jisas" (E: Jesus' food mixer) for a helicopter. The actual words in Solomons Pijin are piana and tiopa. One commentator pointed out that many Melanesians would be far more familiar with helicopters than electric food mixers, and would be more likely to call a mixer "helikopta blong misis".

The best-known pidgin used in the U.S. is the now creolized Hawaiian Pidgin where locals mixed the traditional dialect of Hawaiian with English, Japanese, Portuguese, and other languages of immigrants of Hawaii and Pacific traders.

Evolution[edit]

The concept originated in Europe among the merchants and traders in the Mediterranean in the Middle Ages, who used mostly Sabir. Another well-known pidgin is Bislama of Vanuatu, based on English but incorporating Malay, Chinese, and Portuguese words. The monogenetic theory of pidgins, advanced by Hugo Schuchardt, theorizes that a common origin for most pidgins and creoles exists in the form of Sabir.

Sabir[edit]

Related article: Lingua franca

Sabir was a common pidgin in the Southwestern ports of the Mediterranean. As Portuguese mariners travelled the Atlantic and the Indian Oceans on exploratory and subsequently military/trade naval expeditions starting in the 15th century --in what is known to Europeans as "the Age of Discovery"-- they tried to speak with the natives in Sabir with Portuguese words in it. When English, French and Dutch mariners followed the same routes, they also adopted this "broken Portuguese" with the lexical influence of their home languages and those of the locals. This would explain similarities in pidgins and creoles as separated as Papiamento, Tok Pisin, Chinese English Pidgin and others. For example, the word for "to know" is similar to sabir (that gave the name to Sabir itself). In Spanish and Portuguese, "saber" means "to know". It came into English as "savvy". The word for "small" is similar to Portuguese pequeno, and pequenino (very small) became pikinini in pidgins. It came into English as pickaninny and it has been proposed as an etymology for pidgin.[citation needed]

Wikisource has original text related to this article:

Pidgin English was the name given to a Chinese-English-Portuguese pidgin used for commerce in Canton during the 18th and 19th centuries. In Canton, this contact language was called Canton English.

History[edit]

Pidgin English from "God's Chinese Son," written by Jonathan Spence

http://www.hkfilm.net/pidgin.txt

Various pidgins[edit]

--Ptcamn 04:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. I would vote to put it back. It seems highly relevant to me, and provides links to more specialised articles too. Aridd (talk) 09:56, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Native speakers[edit]

According to Wardhaugh (2002) in the chapter on pidgins and creoles and in the section labeled "definitions"

A pidgin is a language with no native speakers: it is no one's first language but is a contact language (page 60)

According to the American Heritage dictionary a pidgin is:

n. A simplified form of speech that is usually a mixture of two or more languages, has a rudimentary grammar and vocabulary, is used for communication between groups speaking different languages, and is not spoken as a first or native language. Also called contact language.

This very article begins in its lead section by stating that "Pidgins have no native speakers, but are learned as second languages." A statement immediately sourced as coming from Bakker (1994) which I'm assuming means that he says the same thing. Just thought I'd clarify things so we don't get into a revert war over this. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 22:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That statement doesn't come directly from Bakker (1994) — it was altered by JackLumber, but keeping the reference.
Bakker actually says "Pidgins have no (or few) first language speakers" (emphasis mine). He goes on to say that "In most studies of pidgin and creole languages, pidgins fare rather poorly. Too often ... it is stated that creoles are just pidgins which suddenly acquire typical creole-like structural properties upon becoming mother tongues." --Ptcamn 23:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like I'm not getting the context of your quotes. Is the parenthetical "or" statement an admission of uncertainty or a claim of variation? It sounds like it could be the former. Does Bakker accept the dominant explanation that creoles are basically pidgins with native speakers? Bakker believes that some pidgins have native speakers, does he give examples? Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 23:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What bakker says is not that when the first person who speaks a pidgin natively is born the language suddenly changes and becomes a creole. What he says is that Pidgins and Creoles are structually different since Creoles are more complex languages than Pidgins AND he says that the reason that they become more complex is (too) often thought to be that their speakers more frequently have the language as a first language. It follows from this idea that the transition from Pidgin to Creole is gradual as more native speakers of the pidgin are born and that since the Pidgin now begins to be spoken by a group of people who have the language as a native language the language it self changes its characteristics and becomes more of a creole. He is explicitly NOT defining a creole as a pidgin with native speakers.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 12:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then it sounds as though he is at odds with the authors of the resources I referred to above that don't even accomodate doubt into the notion that a creole is a pidgin with native speakers (i.e. that the native speakers will introduce the complexity of a creole onto the pidgin they are taught). Naturally, you don't need to incorporate native speakers into the definition but unless Bakker has examples of a pidgin spoken by native speakers, then I'd say that the word "usually" can be omitted in the article. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 04:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Peter Bakker is among the most respected scholars working with contact linguistic phenomena, another of the most respected scholars is Pieter Muysken who also cowrote the book. The book by Bakker and Muysken is about the most thorough study of contact linguistic phenomena in modern linguistics and as a specialized scholarly work it is to be given more weight than a dictionary definition and a general introduction to linguistics respectively. Also the question of whether he has examples is a moot point the entire argument is that a pidgin language only gradually develops into a creole as it gradually requires more speakers so all pidgins can potentially have native speakers - they just typically have fewer than creoles. Bakker however refuses the notion that pidgin or creole status can be defined by the status of its speakers instead he defines it by structural properties of a language. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 10:19, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There are two issues getting muddled here. Either Bakker and Muysken are arguing that aspects of native speakers should be irrelevant in the definitions of pidgins and creoles or they're arguing that pidgins can have native speakers.
The former seems to move against a bit of shorthand in discussions of pidgins and creoles. As Todd puts it: "...since a creole, as a mother tongue, must be capable of expressing the whole range of human experience, the lexicon is expanded and frequently a more elaborate syntactic system evolves." Thus, speech nativity has certain implicit consequences to the structure of a (former) pidgin and if their point is that the important difference is the structures, then "usually" shouldn't be put anywhere in the sentence "Pidgins have no native speakers."
If they're arguing the latter, then they have the burden of proof to find native speakers of pidgins. If they don't (or if nobody does), then there isn't much credibility to such a claim and they would be at odds with linguistic community on the matter. Since they're so credible, I'm hoping that they either have an example (in which case I would advocate the wording "pidgins usually (if not always) have no native speakers") or that they're arguing the former, which it sounds a lot like they're doing from what has been quoted and explained. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 01:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Another classic in the field of Contact Linguistics, Kaufman & Thomasons 1988 Language Contact, Creolization and Genetic Linguistics p. 169 states it even more precisely: "The third diagnostic feature of pidgins, also traditional, is that a pidgin is nobody's native language. By "nobody" we mean "no community," i.e. no sizeable group of native speakers; if few isolated children acquire a pidgin as their native language, it remains a pidgin. It follows then that the bordeline between a pidgin and a creole resulting from nativization of a fully crystallizd pidgin will be fuzzy too." Your own quote by Todd states the same thing; "A creole arises when a pidgin becomes the mother tongue of a speech community" He is also not talking about there being no single native speakers - what matters is if it is the native language of a community. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 08:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I noticed that with Todd as well. That certainly is an important distinction. Well, then I stand with my suggested phrasing of "pidgins usually (if not always) have no native speakers." Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 15:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I just noticed the change made to the article. That seems even better. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 15:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good, I am glad we found a way tpo agree. :) ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 15:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly the best solution. —JackLumber/tɔk/ 22:04, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Trade Languages[edit]

Maybe someone should create a trade language. This article describes it as a separate thing from a pidgin and doesn't go into any kind of depth about it. When i went to look up Trade Languages, it simply re-directed to here even though this article says it's not the same as a pidgin :S 82.41.107.240 (talk) 22:16, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, sorry, that was me. I forgot i wasn't logged in. Chris (talk) 22:17, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is already English as trade language. English itself is a Pidgin of Normann and Saxon language. Abdulka (talk) 09:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tok Pisin[edit]

Pidgin may also be used as the specific name for local pidgins, in places where they are spoken. For example, the name of Tok Pisin derives from the English words talk pidgin, and its speakers usually refer to it simply as "Pidgin" when speaking English.

Except that Tok Pisin is a creole, not a pidgin, so this should be replaced. 72.75.81.72 (talk) 02:45, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed it to address your concern. Now it says "the specific name for local pidgins or creoles"

Trade languages[edit]

"Pidgins may start out as or become trade languages, such as Tok Pisin; but trade languages are often full blown languages in their own right such as Swahili, Persian, or English."

This needs explanation. In what sense is English a trade language? What about Swahili and Persian? This looks to me like something that needs to be sourced or deleted. Lfh (talk) 18:55, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

not sure where you would source this, it is kind of the hierarchy or progress of a language. Trade languages (like how English started up in the Scandinavian area) start out as a pidgin, then when kids are born into that environment (Hawaii's pidgin was started by the plantation workers, and their kids spoke pidgin with the other kids) and that is their "mother tongue" it becomes a creole, then after the creole becomes and accepted form of communication it is called a language (as English has become) —Preceding unsigned comment added by BillyNair (talk • contribs) 19:00, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think the point here is that the term trade language can be understood both in its narrow sense, "pidgin language", and in a literal, more general sense, namely "language used for trade". Persian or English are not pidgin languages, of course, but they are used as vehicular languages in much the same way as a pidgin language, among people who do not share a native language, and for all of whom the vehicular language may be a second language.
Not sure what Billy is referring to, however. Perhaps the Middle English creole hypothesis? It's pretty much discredited in academic circles, however; or, to put it charitably, very controversial. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:54, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Examples[edit]

There appear to be no examples given as to what Pidgin or P. English is/are. If you are completely new to this [as in my case] then you are still left bewildered by what exactly such a 'language' is.

Cheers, Derek

I'm sorry I also find it hard to know what all the tilde and editing gobbly-de-gook is — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.73.26.221 (talk) 10:04, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

“Pidgins allow people or a group of people to communicate with each other without having any similarities in language.” This sentence sounds a little odd and could be revised into, “… when originally there was no common language.” Following this sentence, pidgins’ low prestige amongst languages is raised, but this point is not touched upon in following sections. It would be interesting to see this point further discussed and perhaps examples given to enhance understanding of the status of pidgins in the world. Lastly, the word choice of “full blown” under Terminology does not seem very adequate and could possibly be changed into “fully developed”. Alicears (talk) 04:46, 19 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Good suggestions. I've altered the wording a bit. I'm familiar with the stigma of pidgins and creoles, but only in passing. Anyone wishing to incorporate information into some sort of "social context" section could start with Bakker (1994)

What is the munnabhai pidgin language? Aalok tanwar (talk) 05:05, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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BBC starts Pidgin digital service for West Africa audiences[edit]

Thus we need to serve readers searching for "pidgin" meaning that specific language. The hat note isn't singling out one language out of many examples, the hat note is servicing a specific search for a different subject but using the identical query - a classic case of hat note usage. Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-40975399 Cheers CapnZapp (talk) 11:07, 12 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As I said in my edit summary last time I added this, if I'm pointing to the wrong language, please feel free to correct me (I'm no expert on West African languages), but the hat note entry should not be expanded to the different subject of examples of pidgin languages in general, since that is not the search it is serving. Cheers CapnZapp (talk) 11:10, 12 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If there was one language called "Pidgin" - and if it was restricted to Nigeria, then you would be quite right. trouble is there are literally hundreds of pidgin languages (far too many of them for us to list them all in fact) and a good proportion of these languages are most commonly called "Pidgin", even where they also have a more specific name. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 12:03, 12 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There's no trouble, Sound. But please tell me this: let's assume you have no prior knowledge of West African languages. You found the linked BBC article and now you're visiting your friendly encyclopedia to find out exactly where this digital service will be broadcast. You use Wikipedia's search function and enter "pidgin", "pidgin language" or somesuch. Now, please tell me the exact steps you are taking, to find the correct page, to find out which geographical area the BBC service is covering. Thank you CapnZapp (talk) 09:00, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Now imagine a precisely similar case - someone who has no knowledge of the languages of Papua New Guinea (not an African nation, as I'm sure you realise) and a BBC service in "Pidgin" is being started THERE (I'm not sure they don't already have one, actually). They don't want to get sent to an article on Nigerian Pidgin (a totally different language from a very different and distant part of the world) do they? If there is any ambiguity here it is surely the fault of the author of the original news article. Much better in either case for our disambiguation page to include links to BOTH (together with the many other "Pidgin" languages) and assume that the seeker has a modicum of common sense and can pick the heading likely to be useful. The whole purpose of disambiguation pages is to steer the user in the right direction, where possible, but in the case of intractable ambiguity, as here, it is no help to steer someone in what may well be the wrong direction. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 03:28, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid I don't see the value of the hat note as it currently stands. Clicking the link gets you 1) a wall of text in which you must choose 2) just one specific title out of several possible (for any one language) that 3) doesn't seem very systemized. Also note I never intended the hat note to link to what effectively amounts to a disambiguation page (only it's called "examples" instead). BBC hardly covers every pidgin in the world, there must be a way we can agree some languages are more prominent than others.
While I'm taking notes ;-) I note you did not answer my query, so let me repeat myself: if I visit Wikipedia with the aim to learn more about the language, but armed only with something like "Pidgin for West and Central Africa" or "West African lingua franca"? What you did was bounce back with a counter-question, but that hardly seems constructive. I made an edit that solved my use case. You changed that into something that I'm struggling to see any practical value of at all. Can we - at the very least - mutually agree to not suggest solutions that aren't applicable for the situation at hand?
Best regards, CapnZapp (talk) 14:27, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) No I didn't bounce back with a counter-question, just substituted values in yours. You seem to be persisting in the erroneous assumption that all pidgins are West African. Can YOU please agree that this is not the case? This is really a pre-requisite to rational discussion of this. Assuming you can accept this - then given the large numbers of pidgin languages there is no way that we should plump for one (or some!) of them to the exclusion of all (or any!) others, nor it is practical to put them all (or even a "fair sample" of them) in a hatnote. That's not how hatnotes work.

There are in fact specific articles for West African Pidgin English and also Nigerian Pidgin (not to mention several other specific languages - actually do a "wiki search" on "Africa Pidgin" or something like that. Alternatively - you can actually locate the article for "Nigerian Pidgin" quite easily by following the trail of disambiguation pages from and lists of pidgin languages by searching Pidgin. And you don't end with a Pacific, Asian, or even American pidgin language instead of what you were looking for. Try it and see if I am not right. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 16:15, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Basic definitions[edit]

The trouble is that "serious" linguistic study of these very "low-status" languages is fairly recent, and often based on detailed studies of a particular language or group of languages. Generalised statements are often made in the literature of the subject that apply to some pidgins but either less so (or even not at all) to others. It is fair to say that the term "pidgin" (in the sense of this article) is actually used by different writers in different, even contradictory senses. Finding a succinct, comprehensive (and comprehensible) consensus for an article in a general encyclopedia like this is therefore very fraught. I have edited the current "lead" section (actually not a lead at all in the usual Wikipedia sense) to resolve some infelicities and contradictions arising from the somewhat chaotic nature of our sources, to tease what may represent a kind of consensus, without getting into "Source A says, although Source B differs, remarking..." which would be tedious and not specially informative for our readers. My own opinion, to be honest, is that the rigid distinctions made by many linguists between pidgins and creoles breaks down when one starts to seriously study more than a narrow range of languages. As time goes by we may rather come to distinguish between a number of varieties or families of "pidgin" languages with quite widely varying characteristics and natures. For instance - did the "Middle English" of Chaucer and other great poets arise from a pidginisation of Anglo-Saxon? Arguments to the contrary are often based on prejudice and a distorted idea of what actually constitutes a pidgin (IMHO) but of course it would be WP:OR to come down on this still contested question firmly on one side or the other. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 18:38, 26 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Add Desi pidgin[edit]

Desi pidgin is the pidgin English used by Hindi speakers, particularly in bollywood and also in day to day life of desi people Amarark001 (talk) 09:05, 1 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No basis of etymology[edit]

The link is simply a dixtionary link, it does not establish any claim that pidgin came from Chinese, or on the Chinese page, a Sino-Portugese origin of the word pidgin. 14.0.174.10 (talk) 04:59, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, I'm deleting it. --Jotamar (talk) 20:10, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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