Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Common outcomes

Being named after

I'd like to add something about when and whether being named after helps with notability. People (things) that have streets named after them, species named after them, topographical landmarks, that are patrons of schools or other institutions... do we have any common outcomes here? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:31, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any. I would presume that when a street is named after someone, there would be some coverage even if hard to find, but I would not take the street name itself as proof of notability, just a sign that someone needs to try harder with local/regional sources. MarioGom (talk) 07:51, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not § RfC: Deprecating WP:NOTDIR

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not § RfC: Deprecating WP:NOTDIR. School notability is mentioned there. –Novem Linguae (talk) 04:31, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Embassies

Can we add a note that embassies are not inherently auto-notable? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:59, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm with you in spirit, but this really isn't the place for that. North8000 (talk) 14:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@North8000 Errr, isn't this the page for listing such stuff? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:22, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

This is an essay which merely observes and summarizes common outcomes. The place for statements such as yours would be in the notability guidelines. Specifically, one of the specialty guidelines referenced/linked at WP:Notability Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:16, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm also not clear what you are saying. It seems to me to be fairly clear that a "common outcome" of an AfD on an Embassy is !delete JMWt (talk) 15:29, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. I think we have consensus to add this here then? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:43, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any statistics about the number of embassies nominated for deletion and the results of those AfDs? The Banner talk 16:11, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

School outcomes: School districts being notable under GEOLAND

There was a discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump/policy#School districts and GEOLAND that was kind of kickstarted by me being confused about what's said here about school districts being within the purview of GEOLAND. I figured I'd link it here for future reference if anyone thinks it's useful. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:45, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the post and your work in this area. IMO your post which started that discussion was more of a "let's discussion this" than a clear proposal and so the close really didn't decide anything. IMO n:geo specifically excludes abstract mere "lines on a map" from presumed notability under ngeo. The complexity arises from them being three different types of entities:

1. An abstract set of "lines on a map"
2. An organization / governmental body and all of the organizations (e.g. schools) within it
3. A set of physical facilities (schools and the HQ)

I don't have a preferred answer but we must acknowledge those complexities.

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:08, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

There was an RfC below the initial discussion about whether or not school districts should be required to meet GNG. A surprising amount of people thought what I was asking was unclear. Anyways, wouldn't that give the close some weight? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 02:49, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

To do grumpy, I think it has something to do with the silly idea - advocated by a number of people - that schools are always notable and therefore school districts too. The Banner talk 12:39, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I think that it's pretty clear cut that that they have been found to not be inherently notable. I think that my quibble with the OP is with the wording which makes it sound like we are setting the guideline here rather than observing the AFD results. With a simple change to "have not been found to be inherently notable" I would support it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:35, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Given the close at the RfC, I didn't quite have the same takeaway from that conversation. I agree that school districts are not inherently notable but the actual discussion wasn't closed in a way that reflects that outcome? You could always seek further clarification with the closing admin or further input at the Village Pump. The reason I asked these questions was because the actual preexisting consensus seemed unclear given the lack of AfDs on school districts and what is said at WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES (note that I have changed the target so you don't have to scroll up for school district). Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 18:41, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

"No consensuses" means that there was no decision. IMO there was not even any clear question. The closer added some personal thoughts which were fine thoughts but the close was not a place for them. In any case this essay merely observes common outcomes and should not have any wording that implies that the essay is defining the guidelines. Or in this case, for mis-stating the SNG. North8000 (talk) 19:11, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I have reverted your edits on Wikipedia:SCHOOLOUTCOMES and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Common outcomes. That RFC was specifically about schools. Not school districts or education in general. The Banner talk 19:43, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

My thinking was that if someone types in school outcomes their thought process might be more broad (e.g. school districts, post secondary schools, etc) so the broader target seemed like a sensical change to me. That said, I don't particularly care enough to argue about it and since I'm the one who'd need consensus to change the status quo, fair enough. Maybe we should have a generalized education shortcut that would fulfill the same purpose? Thoughts? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:57, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

That RFC has no value on anything else then schools. The Banner talk 20:02, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I've spent a lot of time being confused about this, but as far as I can tell the 2017 RfC is where people got the idea that school districts are some sort of SNG (even if they aren't an official SNG). It was viewed as some sort of compromise by the !voters in my 2023 RfC about the 2017 RfC, even if I don't entirely get how they came to that conclusion.

Taking another look at the 2017 RfC, districts are discussed a few times, but not in a way that'd really have to do with the consensus on the notability of secondary schools (I also notice that the close mentions schooloutcomes as the shortcut to use for this, so I've come to the conclusion that my bold change to that was definitely a bad idea). Since you've been involved in these arguments for much longer than I have, do you know the origin of the rationale that school districts should be presumed notable that is currently on this page? I keep going in circles trying to understand this, given that my RfC seems to the only discussion that's ever existed about it. There's the additional aspect of GEOLAND but I can't find the consensus for that either and it seems to contradict what's actually written at that shortcut. So again, everything keeps going in circles. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 20:27, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Do you know the history behind that RfC? Look that up and you will get your answers (and a headache). In summery: An american school is notable even when no sources are available/exist; non-american schools have to satisfy WP:GNG. There is a massive USA-bias on what means that going after (american) school districts will be a massive, massive battle. The Banner talk 21:06, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

The current wording is out of place here and has problems. This really isn't the place to state interpretations (or in this case mis-interpretations) of guidelines. It's a place to summarize common outcomes. But I do agree with the end result of the current wording and that it probably summarizes actual outcomes. NEAR presumptive notability. I don't agree that geoland or geoland alone gives it this status. A school district (although I can only speak for the USA) is many things at once....a set of lines on a map, a large governmental organization and a set of many facilities/schools. It's also (as the old RFC advises) a good place to have sections covering individual schools particularly when they don't have a separate article. North8000 (talk) 21:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)