Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nation of Islam anti-semitism

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Nation of Islam anti-semitism was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was ambiguous. I count 6 delete, 3 straight keep, 2 keep merged into Nation of Islam and 2 keep merged into Louis Farrakhan. Failing to reach a clear consensus to delete, the article is kept.

  • This article conforms with points 6,9,10 and possibly 11 of What Wikipedia is not. This is a one and a half year old rant by RK that now unfortunately looks too much like a real article because someone decided to wikify it... My objections are: It is original research (see Wikipedia:No original research) and argues a point. It is therefore inherently POV. It doesn’t start with a definition, it starts with a topic sentence. Therefore it is an essay and thus not encyclopaedic. 3/4 of the text consists of quotes, so it is also a particularly bad essay. While the point is probably valid to some degree, it really does not need an article of this length that enjoys flogging dead donkeys so much and any usable parts should be merged with the anti-Semitism, NOI, Farrakhan etc. articles. Please delete. Pteron 13:09, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Agree with Pteron.--158.112.84.2 13:14, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • That was my vote.--MaxMad 13:15, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • There is no merge and delete. Merge and redirect to Nation of Islam.--Samuel J. Howard 13:18, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete: You pretty much summed it up. It's actually more than 3/4 quotes. Character counts before and after quotes show that there were 4641 characters in the article, and only 614 of it wasn't quotes. That shows that a nauseating 86.77% is quotes. When you look at the actual text that's left over, it's mostly just a quick synopsis of the quotes to come. How about moving to wikiquote? -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee|✍]] 13:24, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. This appears to be factual. If we would allow Antisemitism why wouldn't we allow this? I disagree with Pteron (above) in that I do not see this as either propoganda nor advocacy (#6), if the quotes are accurate. It may be unpleasant to those who belong to Nation of Islam, but just because it is unpleasant does not make it false. Since it is mostly quotes, it cannot be an essay (#9). I do not see it as primary research, either (#10) as there is no scientific discovery here. Nor is it a List repository of loosely associated topics (#11). While it may come close to a "list" of quotes, they are not loosely associated as they are very on-topic and cohesive. Those who support, or belong to, the Nation of Islam may not want to see this here, but if it is factual it needs to stay. We don't delete entries on Hitler because Austrians may object, nor do we delete entries on The Crusades because Catholics may object. KeyStroke
  • If you think the percentage of quotes to original content is small, then follow Wikipedia procedure by helping write more original content on this topic. It is not Wikipedia policy to delete articles for having a high percentage of quotes. Our job is to improve articles we already have, not delete them if early drafts are not up to highly edited standards! RK 14:22, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)
  • There is no "rant" against the Nation of Islams. Why are people trying to hide the NOI's own views? The quotes are necessary, because when NOI positions were mentioned in the past, people denied that NOI held such a position. So quotes were added to show that they indeed have such positions. Yet now people want to remove the quotes, leaving us back where we started...with no documentation or proof. That's is not progress.
Anyone who claims that this article is "original research" is trying to hide facts that make them feel uncomfortable. Ironically, they are violating NPOV by hiding beliefs that the NOI proudly has always held and public preached. We may not like such beliefs, but NPOV policy demands that we report the existence of them. I am not aware of any scholars on the subject who deny any of the views attributed to them; I personally have been to NOI speeches (featuring Khalid Muhammed back when he was in the NOI) who stated precisely such things. RK 14:19, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. This is not NPOV. WhisperToMe 22:45, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Merge all content into Louis Farrakhan and work out the POV issues there. The current content is exclusively about Farrakhan's attitudes and statements, not the policies or practices of NOI. In this case, I'd like other thoughts on whether it would be appropriate to copy/paste the history page into Talk:Louis Farrakhan so we can preserve GFDL and still delete this page because I consider the title inherently POV. Rossami 00:01, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Rossami's right that this is really about Farrakhan. NOI is led by him, but it isn't just him, and there is a lot of dissent (sometimes violent) within it, I gather. Who and how, though, is anyone searching this article title? I'd also agree with his idea of merge and delete. Geogre 00:42, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • The "Nation of Islam" is virulently and systemically anti-semitic. If this page is not accurate, improve it. But do not delete it. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 File:USA.Flag.20x12.gif ]] 05:36, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • This topic is fine, though I'd rather it was included in Nation of Islam than separate. However, the article as it stands is dreadful. No source is given for any of these "quotations". Where are they from? And, yes, I can read very well thank you; I am saying that whoever put those quotations in the article (this is you, RK) did not take any of them from the sources or events listed after them. They are from a secondary collection. What is it and why should we trust it? --Zero 14:56, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I knew I'd be accused of trying to 'hide' NOI's anti-Semitism and of historical revisionism and so on... The problem, however, clearly isn't the topic, as Zero says. I never said I disagreed - but this article must go anyway. How can an article called 'NOI anti-Semitism' ever be NPOV? Just because something is ostensibly true, doesn't mean that there isn't an appropriate way to address it in an encyclopedia. And, Keystroke, I reject the argument that this page should exist, as there is also an article on 'anti-Semitism'. You must see the difference between a discourse as historically improtant and far-reaching as anti-Semitism and its implementation by some now-marginalized religious organization (although they did get back into the media through the Michael Jackson case). Also, your argument backfires, because there is an article on 'Adolf Hitler' - but fortunately not on 'Adolf Hitler anti-Semitism', as this information belongs on the 'Adolf Hitler' page - just as 'Nation of Islam anti-Semitism' belongs on the 'Nation of Islam' page. Therefore merge - and get rid of all the quotes. Pteron 15:43, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. --Gary D 07:50, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. BCorr|Брайен 14:44, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.

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