Talk:Will & Grace

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 September 2018 and 16 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jrduckett1.

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Serious Editing Required

This article is in desperate need of editing. It is way too long and is filled with information that is not really necessary. Also - some of the information in the Critical Reception section is false; W&G got mostly positive reviews when it first came out; all you have to do is Google it and you will see. The "Running Gag" section needs culling. It's too long and about 70% of it discussed items that are NOT running gags. Most of these items are not "running gags" per se, but recurring themes, recycled jokes or catchphrases. Some examples of this:

Karen has humorous nicknames for Will and Jack. She often refers to Will as "Wilma" and Jack as "Jackie." She also calls almost anyone she meets "honey."

This is not a running gag. This is the character using nicknames.

Beverley Leslie (Leslie Jordan) marks his entrances by saying "Well, well, well".

This is a catchphrase - not a running gag.

On another point, the article would be greatly benefited by the addition of a "Criticism" section and more information on character development over the course of the series.Nymton ema 11:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I have just removed a few of the running gag points. only 5 of them, which I will list. I was being constrained as well. I think the majority of it should be deleted as it read more like a fans favourite moments section. They are not really running gags. I took out the worst offenders. I want to delete some more, but I was hoping to get some feedback on this first. The ones I deleted are:

*Grace can't sing well. Often if someone plays a piano, she will begin singing. If Will is playing, he might stop, claiming, "I forget the rest." Sandra Bernhard once said to her on the Season 3 episode Swimming Pools...Movie Stars, "If I wanted your sound in the show, I'd strangle a bag of cats."

*Ever since Will kissed Jack on the season-two episode Acting Out, Jack makes jokes about Will's making a move on him, despite the fact that Jack showed that he had feelings for him in a flashback of when they were younger, and the two of them possibly once made out in a hot tub while they were drunk at Joe & Larry's party as mentioned in the Season 3 episode Husbands & Trophy Wives.

*Karen is an alcoholic (often holding her drink and speaking lovingly to it; once while in a book store with Will, she began searching for her drink saying "I know I left it here somewhere," and finding it in the self-help section; in the series finale, she famously left saying "You're out of vodka." "Karen there's a full bottle right there," she then goes on to drink the entire contents of the bottle without stopping later saying "Nope, empty") and addicted to prescription pills ("It's party mix; uppers, downers, and candy corn.") In one episode, in which she takes over a design job for Grace, she says to the clients "Let me get out my swatches." and pours out a container of pills.

* Jack is obsessed with Cher, usually doing impressions of her, and in the Season 4 episode, Grace in the Hole, it is revealed that he has seen Cher in concert 27 times. (The one time he actually met Cher he mistook her for a drag-queen and claimed he did a better Cher than she herself). Other idols of his include Broadway divas (i.e. Patti Lupone, Bernadette Peters, Betty Buckley, and Idina Menzel) and the cast of The Golden Girls, having made a wig by cutting locks of their hair off and gluing them together.

* Karen is known to have had many husbands and partners (male and female) and experiments with many drugs, usually supplied by her loyal pharmacist. Soulnebula 01:56, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Nymton ema that the running gag section could stand to be trimmed down some more. I think all of Soulnebula's deletions are acceptable. Pisceandreams 07:25, 02 August 2007 (UTC)

Why not split it into its own article? Matty-chan 14:00, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I just removed a large portion of that section. I still think it's ridiculously long.Bookkeeperoftheoccult 11:06, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Guest/Recurring Actors & Bulleted Lists

• Some actors/actresses were listed in both the guest actors and recurring actors categories, which seems redundant to me. Those who appeared in 3 or more episodes I kept in 'recurring' and removed from 'guest'.

• For the guest actors, recurring actors, actors playing themselves, crew, and broadcasters bulleted lists, I created multiple columns for each because the main article for this show is painfully long and I am merely trying to keep people from having to scroll down for a mile or two. Pisceandreams 22:20, 01 August 2007 (UTC)

• I added Candy Pruitt to Karen Walker's rivals. She appears in one episode (Season 3, Episode 19) and Karen tricks her "frenemy" into having cosmetic surgery done on her shoulders so Karen can see if she wants it done on herself. Screwjack 02 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:50, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Conflicts

I love this show to pieces, but I think the main article is painfully long. Does anyone see the importance of having the section titled "Conflicts"? The characters had far more conflicts in the show than the solitary one already described in this section, but is it really necessary to have a section devoted to conflicts? Pisceandreams 06:37, 02 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the article is a tad too long, but as a fan like you, I can't bear to shorten the content. Everything seems to have its importance to me. I hope someone else can do it, as long as it doesn't take too much away from the article.

I don't see the harm in leaving the "Conflicts" section. It's only a paragraph long, and the major fight mentioned in it is the only one that carried on through to another episode. If my memory serves me, I believe that was the only time that happened throughout the entire series. If anything needs shortening, I think it's the "Series finale" section, seeing how there is already an article created for the final episode. I'm going to try and cut down that section's size, leaving only the most important details intact. What does everyone else think? (Is there anyone else besides us two here?) =D Byxbee 12:20, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree and see your point about the "Conflicts" section. I also agree that the "Series Finale" section is way too long. I've noticed that that section is more of a detailed account of the finale rather than the summary. Go ahead and start editing! Let me know if you need a hand as I'll be glad to help or provide my input. --Pisceandreams 13:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Will do. The "Series finale" section on the W&G article actually seems longer than the finale's article itself. =O I'll definitely be moving most of the details to the finale article. I'm going to start working at it on my PC, and make my edits here all at once so the changes will be more clearer. Thanks Pisceandreams! Byxbee 01:42, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Culture Reference Problem

One of the Pop Culture References listed states that during the show 'Gilmore Girls,' Luke and Lorelei exchange the phrase "Goodnight Gracie." I think that might be more of the reference to the George Burns and Gracie Allen skit from their show in the fifties than it is to Will and Grace. Is there any way to double check that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.138.151 (talk) 23:50, August 27, 2007 (UTC) I deleted it, as I am sure this is a reference to George Burns and NOT Will and Grace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ldabbieri (talk • contribs) 21:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

More Editing Required

I mentioned earlier on this page about the need for editing in this article. I'm glad you guys agreed, but I think a serious cull is required. This article is simply too long and filled with too much unnecessary information.

I propose the following edits / deletions:

1) "Conflicts" section should be integrated into the main article and not be given its own section.

2) "Series Finale and Conclusion" section should be deleted - it reads as a blow-by-blow description of the episode - a short summary would do.

3) "Recurring Characters" section should be culled. I would suggest picking the top five most seen characters and removing the rest. Characters like Stuart Lamarck (Dave Foley), Eleanor Markus (Judith Ivey), Jamie (John Ducey), Barry (Dan Futterman), Tina (Lesley Ann Warren), Olivia Walker (Hallee Hirsh), Stan Walker (unseen character), Mason Walker (unseen character) and Lois Whitley (Suzanne Pleshette) may have been "recurring" - but were rarely in the show. Some never appeared on screen and some only appeared in one episode.

4) "Notable guest stars in character roles" section - same again, cull cull cull! Too long! Pick five to ten big names and delete the rest.

5) "Running Gags" section is pointless. While the edits so far are good, it doesn't seem necessary to list every single "running gag" in a sitcom article. I would recommend deleting it.

6) "Pop Culture" section - stuff like "Debra Messing is the only main cast member who hasn't hosted Saturday Night Live during the entire run of Will & Grace" are not pop culture references. Simply mentioning the title of the show (or a slight variation on the title) is not a pop culture reference either. Almost all of this section should be deleted or edited.

I would go ahead and make these changes myself, but I know there would be a whirlwind of hell to pay if I did. So I am simply making suggestions and leaving it up to you guys.Nymton ema 18:51, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Graffiti

Some idiot placed a bit of graffiti on the page, removed it and placed a notice on their talk page. Sorry if any edits were accidentally culled when I removed the graffiti. Douglas 04:45, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Plot

This section, including all of its subsections, is in serious need of trimming. I'm removing the 'series finale' subsection because it does nothing but recount the series of events in the finale and that does not follow Wikipedia guidelines (see WP:INDISCRIMINATE).--Pisceandreams (talk) 19:49, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Will and Grace Spinoff? Is Will really Gay? When does the story end 2024?

In this article it is said that there might be a Will and Grace spinoff but I couldn't find a source for this anywhere. Many places says there will not be a spinoff, although I think there should because they screwed up the entire ending. Will was supposed to have a baby with Grace but that stupid Leo guy ruined everything. So if there is a spinoff will it take place after 2024? Because it was 2006 when Grace's daughter was born and 18 years later when she went to college it would be 2024. Did Lila get married to Ben after college or right away? The show didn't say. Another question is that if Will is Gay why did he have sex with a girl and date two other girls? Why did Will have a girl friend and why did he even date Grace if he was Gay?Maldek (talk) 07:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, if it were AFTER college, Lila & Ben would've been 21 at least, respectively.

The latter questions are answered in the programme anyway, Will was not out and still pretending he was straight. RedRevolver (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.8.234.248 (talk) 14:38, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

3rd Season DVD - Additional Episode to Note as Edited

An additional note should be added on the Season 3 DVD section noting that the episode "Gypsies, Tramps and Weed" is in edited form on the DVD. A comparison of the DVD to a tape of the original NBC broadcast reveals 9 instances of lines having been removed on the DVD version.

A prime example is in the first scene (prior to the theme music) between Jack saying "Happy Birthday" and Grace saying "At the risk of sounding sentimental..." In the original broadcast version, Grace says to Will "Just think, it was exactly this moment that you pushed your way into this world, looked over your shoulder, and said, 'You know what? That's not for me.'"

Will responds "I thought maybe it was a snap judgment, but you know what? I was right." Then Grace says, "At the risk of sounding sentimental..."

Another edited scene is when Will is telling Grace about his visit to the psychic. He has a rant at the very beginning of the scene which starts "I mean, who calls themselves 'Psychic Sue'?" and ends with "Jack calling himself 'Jumping Ferret Jack.'" Then Grace says, "So, what else did she say?" which is the first line of this scene on the DVD version.

A last example - when customers are coming into Grace's office requesting "ottomans," there's a line by a girl who says, "Yeah, we need ottomans, too." that was cut on the DVD. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.187.193.24 (talk) 23:48, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

John Barrowman

I've removed this recently-added paragraph about John Barrowman from the article:

Openly gay actor John Barrowman, now the lead in the popular Torchwood series, was under consideration for the role of Will but the producers felt he was "too straight" and the role went to Eric McCormack instead, who is heterosexual. "The sad thing is it's run by gay men and women," said Barrowman in a January 2006 article. He later expressed contempt at the idea that all gay men act the same way.

While I think it could have a place in the article (after a bit of wordsmithing), it does not belong under the 'Critical reactions' section, as this actor's thoughts on his losing-out of being cast as 'Will' isn't exactly a reaction to the show by critics. --Pisceandreams (talk) 19:39, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

References

First network series to show gay main characters?

The article says: "Will & Grace is the first network television series to showcase one or more homosexuals as the principal characters." What about Ellen ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.66.193 (talk) 07:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Ellen did not start out with its main character being gay. Her character's homosexuality was not revealed until toward the end of the show's 4th season (and the show went on for only 1 season after that). At any rate, I've re-worded it to say, "Will & Grace is the first network television series to showcase one or more homosexuals as principal characters as part of the show's premise.--Pisceandreams (talk) 14:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC)"

What about Ellen? Even if you say that Ellen's TV character wasn't gay until the actress herself came out, what about Love, Sidney? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love,_Sidney Love, Sidney was on in 1981 for Pete's sake. Will and Grace is hardly the first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.151.21.101 (talk) 18:31, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

You guys are all dummies. 'Soap!' aired on network TV before any of that stuff and featured Billy Crystal as Jodie Dallas in the 1st openly gay character role on American television. Either do your homework or just ask someone over 20 for examples to put in your articles. DRAMA! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.41.138.253 (talk) 04:23, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Will & Grace: The Movie?

No, there will not be a movie based on this television show, because asking only to spent only 8 years ago filming this show. 71.72.224.217 (talk) 09:22, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

James Burrows Directing Record Discrepancy

In the crew section, it is stated that "Burrows directed all 194 episodes of the series, which has since become a directing record." However, Burrows directed 234 episodes of Cheers. I check the link provided as reference to this information but is no longer available. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlp140 (talk • contribs) 04:50, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Awful

This is one of the worst articles I've seen. It's filled with useless information and the writing is atrocious. Just awful. The only way to save it is to rewrite it in its entirety. 68.82.179.158 (talk) 18:12, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Syndication

"Will & Grace" was in syndication before Lifetime picked it up. I remembered seeing it late at night on my local CW affiliate until 2008. Matthew Cantrell (talk) 06:56, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

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Upcoming ninth season

I've redirected Will & Grace (season 9) for now, but feel free to expand when the time is right. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:04, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

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Revival series conflict

per infobox instructions we only use "present" or the date that the last episode aired if the seires has ended, hnce the field name. For more information read the infobox instructions!

I don't understand why your against this change AussieLegend? The show was off the air since 2006 then returned in 2017 as a revival series much like how The X-Files and Murphy Brown had it listed as Original series and "revival series", particularly the former as that series ended in 2001/2004 then returned with a new season 15 years later as a revival series.--AnimeDisneylover95 (talk) 22:33, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

@AnimeDisneylover95: The infobox is only supposed to show two dates, the date that the very first episode first aired and the date that the very last episode first aired, if the series has ended. If the series is ongoing then |last_aired=present is used. If the program has had long hiatuses, such as in the case of cancellation and then renewal years later, this is addressed in the prose, not the infobox. This has been discussed in other venues and is the way that the infobox is used. As for Murphy Brown, the field was only used incorrectly there because you recently changed it to be that way.[1] That edit has been opposed, like your inappropriate change here and neither should be reinstated until there is consensus to do so. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:46, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

@AussieLegend: Did you not bother even looking at The X-Files before just making this comment and reverting the edits i did on Will and Grace and Murphy Brown? Seriously it's like dismissing them as not revivals but just new seasons when they had been off the air for decades--AnimeDisneylover95 (talk) 14:21, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

"If the program has had long hiatuses, such as in the case of cancellation and then renewal years later, this is addressed in the prose, not the infobox."

@AussieLegend:Again look at the infobox for The X-Files before you start even twisting the truth what you believe in and what Wikipedia believes in.--AnimeDisneylover95 (talk) 14:21, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you don't like the way that last_aired is used. If you really have a problem with it then please, by all means, take it up of the infobox's talk page. As for Seriously it's like dismissing them as not revivals but just new seasons when they had been off the air for decades, that's completely incorrect. The infobox is only supposed to show when the program started and when it ended. It's not supposed to detail the entire history. Lots of programs have long hiatuses, some longer than programs that have been cancelled and then renewed. This is properly addressed in the body of the article, not in the infobox where space is limited to, essentially, bullet-point type mentions. --AussieLegend (✉) 19:10, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

It still doesn't matter. As for that's completely incorrect. The infobox is only supposed to show when the program started and when it ended. It's not supposed to detail the entire history. Lots of programs have long hiatuses, some longer than programs that have been cancelled and then renewed. That is incorrect. Whenever a show comes back after being off the air for decades is a REVIVAL. Nice try but even affter I made them not that small YOU still continue to go about your ways and having them the way you want them to be.

Lastly YOU stop with your disruptive editing. --AnimeDisneylover95 (talk) 20:31, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

What I wrote is not incorrect. It's the way that we use these fields and has been for a long time. I've suggested to you that you take this to the infobox talk page but you haven't. I've also suggested that you ask for advice at WT:TV but you haven't. As for disruptive editing, you've now received edit-warring warnings from two different editors. --AussieLegend (✉) 20:51, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Saved by the Bell

Can someone explain the rationale for why all seasons of Will & Grace including the 2017 revival are in one article, whereas Saved by the Bell and its revival are in two different articles? Both revival shows are direct continuations of their originals, are set in the same continuity, and have many of the same actors reprising the same roles.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for one or the other. I just want to understand why this is, and if there's an "official policy" in Wikipedia for how to handle this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.162.152.194 (talk) 19:14, 28 November 2021 (UTC)