Talk:Mitre

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Heraldry and vexillology

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Origins[edit]

I have read in credible-sounding sources that the origin of the term "mitre" can be found in Mithraism, the ancient mystery religion that some say is a foundation of Christianity. Has this little snippet of info been discredited? And if not, would it not be of interest here?

This just looks like a game of sounds alike. A mitre is a bishop's hat; it is not a matter of faith. The Greek μιτρα appears variously in classical Greek as a turban or distinctive headdress. The word also appears to be used to describe a bandage or sash-belt (worn under an ancient warrior's armour). None of the references have anything to do with Mithraism. Therefore, I believe the whole proposal of an etymological link between the two might be dismissed as being someone's wishful thinking. --Gareth Hughes 16:15, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

See also Exodus 29:6, "And thou shalt put the mitre upon his head...", a usage reflected in the Septuagint which, whatever you believe about its origins, we can safely assume was not influenced by Mithraism. (The NIV translates this "turban", but the Greek clearly says "mitra".) Csernica 06:41, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But still it is interesting, that deity Mithra was usually pictured with radiant phrygian cap like at the pictures in article Mithra. I think the relation between mitre and deity Mithra cannot be simply neglected.--Marcel Kosko 11:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's interesting that Mithra was shown wearing headgear that was commonly worn in the area where his worship originated? Sorry, but not all pointy hats are related to each other. This relation can be easily ignored; it doesn't exist. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:28, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Official and ceremonial hat of the Salii, a precedent of the mitre

The article used to say that the mitre originates from the middle ages, in the Byzantine Empire. Since that point of invention is clearly wrong, and I now see Csernica is making a stand against the Phrygian origin Jennings makes in his book (though written a while ago), maybe we can find more. The least is to compare theories (a says, b contradicts...), not to simply ignore them --Flammingo^Hey 07:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"A stand"? I don't know who Jennings is, but the statement was totally unreferenced when it was in the article 2 years ago. If there's a reference then sure we include it, no matter how little sense it makes. (And this one makes none at all. It appears to be based on nothing more than a general resemblance. Unlike the camelaucum -- which, like all ancestral garments to ecclesiastical vestments, was an item of street wear -- no plausible connection is offered that can bridge the gap between the time the mitre first appeared and the disappearance of Mithraism from the West.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, let's see a citation, please. -- SECisek 21:56, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate how illogical this might seem, but the "shape" of the Greek word mitra suggests perhaps a Sanskrit origin. Given that turbans were a lot less common in ancient Greece than ancient India, and the cross-cultural contact between the two; and also, the common Indo-Iranian word mitrá meaning that which causes to bind (leading to Mitra becoming god of friendship), suggests the meaning of a headband or ribbon. Though which derives from which is another matter.

Nuttyskin (talk) 14:08, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Origin of mitre - fish?[edit]

Question: I have seen images drawn (http://www.bible-history.com/past/dagon.html)and in sculpted bas-relief (http://www.tofm.org/papacy/pope_mitre.htm) of a priest-like figure from the ancient Middle East wearing a headdress that consists of a fish's head and the skin of the fish trailing down the priest's back. If this is reliable, might not the mitre have originated from this? Otherwise, (from the absence of such discussion in the article) the mitre's design is a mystery, but it does seem to resemble an open fish's mouth. Cnorkus (talk) 15:08, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This was a common belief in some circles due to the influence of speculation through Ellen White of the Seventh Day Adventist movement as a way to discredit the Catholic Church as infected by pagan influence. Another popular belief is that the obelisk in St. Peter's Square is an "Egyptian Phallus" (I'm not joking!). However these beliefs are entirely speculative. It only "looks like a fish" from the side, because it's a folding hat. Since it only appears to have this look in a particular region and era, it's unlikely it was inspired by ancient pre-Christian, non-Jewish sources like the supposed "cult of Dagon" or "Mithraism." Given the association of fish with Christianity, it might appeal to some, but you could just as easily say it looks like the flame of a candle, the point of a spear, a leaf, or even the tip of an artist's brush. The desire to link it to some pagan deity or ancient religious "cult" seems to be more of polemical exercise based on imagination. Pagans wore hats, lived in houses, ate food, wore clothes, danced, sang songs, etc. just like everybody else, so of course non-Pagans will do the same but doesn't require a derivative connection, much less one of implied theological import.

Picture gallery[edit]

Not to be rude or anything, but what's the point of having all these pictures? A mitre looks pretty much the same no matter which Pope or bishop is underneath it. It seems to me one or two are sufficient to convey the overall appearance. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. It would be different if the pictures were of different types, periods or churches, so as to illustrate a true variety. But all the pictures in the gallery are of twentieth century Roman Catholics which is of very limited interest. One of these would do. Could we perhaps find examples from paintings, subject to copyright, from different periods or churches which would be more interesting?Chelseaboy 09:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hm. It seems that all the images have questionable licenses too. Of the Western examples, the photo of JPI claims specific permission (non-GFDL) and the others claim fair use without providing rationale. At least one of them is being formally challenged. Of the Eastern examples, all of which claim public domain by release of the creator, the one of Pope Shenouda is from a Coptic website [1], the one of Patr. Alexei is from a website on Vladimir Putin, and that of Patr. Pavle is from a website run by a Serbian diocese [2]. In no case is there a release of copyright. TCC (talk) (contribs) 10:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

An image gallery would be helpful in this article to show the variety of types and the historical evolution of the mitre, but as it exists now, there are way too many pictures of similar looking mitres, all of which are of the Eastern type. Pictures of interesting mitres from Western Christianity would be a good addition. Dgf32 (talk) 21:11, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is something very wrong with the picture of Patr. Alexei, and it looks like the photo was modified recently.

Miarchey (talk) 21:37, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Crowns not mitres[edit]

some pictures show crowns, not mitres.--79.111.186.106 (talk) 06:36, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding is that the Eastern mitres, though they look like crowns, are still called mitres. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Radio Sharon (talk • contribs) 14:30, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Archdeacons?[edit]

Could anyone clarify if Archdeacons wore Mitres, before the reformation, in Great Britian and Ireland? Nmclough (talk) 10:18, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Colored miters[edit]

The claim about the traditional color of miters is highly doubtful, or at best regional. The famous "Fond du Lac circus" picture, for instance, shows what are clearly colored miters on most of the participants; at the very last, they aren't any semblance of white. Mangoe (talk) 12:17, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Clarity[edit]

In the unattributed quote under the subheading "Byzantine Empire," it is unclear as to whether "the tiara" in question is the papal tiara or tiaras in general. Either could be believed, though, I assume the quote intends to discuss the origin of the papal tiara given the context. The article could be improved by clarification on this point.Coffeemancer (talk) 23:58, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"former Anglican bishops"[edit]

It seems necessary to provide a citation for the statement that Catholic ecclesial law allows any former Anglican bishop who is ordained a Catholic priest to request to wear a mitre. Some former Anglican bishops who become Catholic priests are made ordinaries in the Personal Ordinariates established under Angicanorum coetibus; yes, they wear a mitre; but most are not and cannot. --142.163.195.253 (talk) 13:33, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]