Talk:Trakai Voivodeship

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To translate[edit]

Gloger, Geografia historyczna[edit]

Zygmunt Gloger, Geografia historyczna ziem dawnej Polski. W tekście 63 autentycznych rycin, Kraków 1903

Województwo Trockie.

Żadne z województw litewskich nie miało tak dziwacznie wydłużonej przestrzeni swojej, jak Trockie. Ciągnęło się bowiem pasem miejscami wąskim na mil kilka, ale długim na mil 50, z północy od granic Kurlandyi na południe do Narwi i Podlasia. Granicę północną tego województwa stanowiła Kurlandya i Semigalia, ścianę wschodnią województwo Wileńskie i części Nowogródzkiego; od południa leżało Podlasie; na zachodzie także od rzeki Narwi do Augustowa Podlasie, dalej Prusy książęce i księstwo Żmudzkie aż po Kurlandyę. W powyższych granicach utworzone zostało na sejmie Horodelskim roku 1413 województwo Trockie z dwóch księstw kiejstutowych: Trockiego i Grodzieńskiego. Następnie podzielone zostało na 4 powiaty: Trocki, Kowieński, Upicki i Grodzieński. Pierwsze trzy, od granicy pruskiej przez Niemen do Trok i pasem na północ do Kurlandyi ciągnące się, były tak zwaną Litwą Wyższą (Aukstote), t. j. w górze Żmudzi nad Niemnem położoną. Powiat Grodzieński, jeszcze wyżej leżący, zamieszkały był przez Rusinów, którzy w dolinie Niemna stykali się z plemieniem litewskim przy ujściu Hańczy i wsi Warwiszkach około 4 mile poniżej Grodna. Prócz tego za czasów Kiejstuta część także Podlasia należała do dzielnicy tego księcia, do Rajgrodu po rzeki: Nettę i Biebrzę, jak świadczy rozgraniczenie w roku 1358 między Kiejstutem a Ziemowitem, księciem mazowieckim, w Grodnie zdziałane. Po Kiejstucie od rokn 1388 do 1392 księciem trockim był Skirgielło, a po nim syn Kiejstuta, Witołd, zostawszy wielkim księciem litewskim, powrócił do dziedzin ojcowskich. Utworzone w Horodle województwo Trockie zatrzymało nadal tę północną część Podlasia, która aż w roku 1520, postanowieniem Zygmunta I w Toruniu, przywrócona została do świeżo utworzonego województwa Podlaskiego.

Senatorów większych województwo Trockie posiadało dwóch t. j. wojewodę i kasztelana trockich. Wojewoda siedział w senacie zaraz po kaliskim, a kasztelan między wojewodą sieradzkim i łęczyckim. Pierwszym wojewodą został w roku 1413 Jawnus herbu Zadora, a pierwszym kasztelanem Szymon Sunigajło. Urzędnicy powiatowi ziemscy byli w województwie Trockiem tacy sami jak w Wileńskiem. Ciwun im przewodniczył w powiecie Trockim jak w Wileńskim, a w innych powiatach marszałkowie. Każdy powiat obierał po dwóch posłów na sejm i po dwóch deputatów na trybunał, czyli razem ośmiu posłów i tyluż deputatów. Połowa deputatów zasiadała na kadencyi wileńskiej, a druga połowa na ruskiej. Województwo i powiat Trocki sejmikowały w Trokach, powiat Grodzieński w Grodnie, Kowieński w Kownie, tylko Upicki nie w Upicie, ale w Poniewieżu. Starostw grodowych było cztery: Trockie, Grodzieńskie, Kowieńskie i Upickie. Trockie należało do wojewody.

Herbem województwa Trockiego była Pogoń litewska w czerwonem polu. Powiaty miały chorągwie z taka samą Pogonią, tylko nie czerwone, ale modre, t. j. błękitne. Mundurem sejmowym województwa był kontusz szkarłatny, wyłogi zielone, żupan biały. Poza sejmem szlachta trocka uważała za swoją barwę kontusz granatowy, żupan i wyłogi słomiane, a powiat Upicki: kontusz karmazynowy, wyłogi granatowe, żupan słomiany.

Stolica województwa Troki, Nowe Troki, po łacinie Trocum, wzięły nazwę od litewskiego wyrazu trakas, znaczącego las wytrzebiony, nad jeziorem Trockiem, w uroczem położeniu, dziś z rozwalinami starożytnego zamku gotyckiego władców Litwy. Jezioro, otaczające zamek i tę pierwotna stolicę Litwy, zowie się po litewsku Galwie, od wyrazu Gałwa, znaczącego głowa. Gdy wobec szybkiego wzrostu Wilna w XVI wieku Troki chyliły się do upadku, królowie polscy: Zygmunt I, Zygmunt August i Stefan Batory, wydali mieszczanom mnóstwo przywilejów, aby ich byt podtrzymać, ta jednak pieczołowitość monarchów nie zapobiegła koniecznym przyczynom upadku. Stare Troki, wioska z opactwem Benedyktynów, o pół mili od Nowych Trok, jest miejscem dawniejszej jeszcze stolicy Litwy, niż Wilno, bo posiadała starszy, niż w Wilnie i Nowych Trokach zamek stołeczny wielkich książąt. Województwo Trockie, stawszy się w drugiej połowie wieku XIII i w XIV polem nieustannych walk z Krzyżakami, posiada z owych czasów mnóstwo t. zw. pilokalni, czyli umocnionych wałem i przykopem gór zamkowych, przedstawiających odrębny typ od starosłowiańskich polskich grodzisk. Do ważniejszych takich zamków należały nad Niemnem Punie, które upamiętnił Syrokomla swoim poematem p. n. Margier, także Liszków z rozwalinami kamiennego zamku, Birsztany, Olita i Merecz, któremu Zygmunt August nadał roku 1569 herb Jednorożec. W Mereczu roku 1648 d. 20. maja o pół do drugiej po północy, w podróży z Wilna do Warszawy, zmarł jeden z najlepszych królów polskich, Władysław IV. Grodno, tak nazwane od grodu, czyli zamku, zbudowanego nad Niemnem, było dzielnicą książąt słowiańskich a po zburzeniu jej przez Tatarów, około roku 1241, zajęte zostało przez Erdziwiłła, księcia litewskiego, który zamek tutejszy (drewniany) odbudował. Epoka politycznej i ekonomicznej świetności zaczęła się dla Grodna pod Stefanem Batorym, który tu często przebywał i tu dnia 12. grudnia 1686 roku życie swoje zakończył w sile wieku, bo w 54 roku żywota.

Rv[edit]

Reverting nationalist edits. Hrodna was a Belarusian populated city for most of time of this voivodship, therefore the Belarusian name will be used. Grodno could be used for later times when it was Polish-populated. Other cities were Lithuanian-populated, therefore Lithuanian names will be used. The most of area of voivodhsip was Lithuanian-populated also, this is why voivodship will be named in Luthuanian. Also, it was established before the Union of Lublin (one of two voivodships established then, the other being Vilnius voivodship), when Polish language was still not used in Grand Duchy of Lithuania, therefore attempts to rename cities, powiats and voivodship itself to Polish language are wrong. DeirYassin 10:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Name[edit]

Nobody denies that Trakai is the name of modern city in Lithuania. But was the entity, formed in 1413 in GDL and exiting until the end of PLC in 1795, known as 'Trakai Voivodeship' ([1] [2] - 0 Google Print hits)? I think 'Troki Voivodeship' would be more correct ([3] - 15 Google hits). I'd therefore suggest that this article is moved back to Troki Voivodeship. We should not invent names.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:57, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with the move. First, presented google hits do not show such name as Troki Voivodeship, for instance first book, which allegedly should have such name, in the list (Revolution from Abroad: The Soviet Conquest...) do not show any similar name [4], that book shows is Wilno-Troki county, Wilno Voivodeship in the 20th century context, but not so called Troki Voivodeship, in others so called "hits" story continues [5], [6] etc. It is prefect example of low skill google search (which is continued and here) in order to justify Polish POV. Should I also say that overwhelming majority of presented "hits" which should have so called Troki Voivodeship are found in Polish books? Speaking about names invention, yes Poles invented this name from Lithuanian one. Very simple. And polonization of Lithuanian, Belarussian and Ukrainian names without proper arguments match neglect towards WP:POINT. M.K. 11:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree with the idea to use the variant "Troki Voivodship" as the title of this article since both Polish and Belarusian (official languages of the GDL after 1696 and prior 1696 respectively) call the centre of the Voivodship similarly: Troki. CityElefant (talk) 13:47, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:01, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Trakai Voivodeship → Troki Voivodeship — Trakai is a modern, Lithuanian name of the city which was known as Troki in the past to its inhabitants and was known as such in English literature. Of course, per our naming guidelines the city should be known in Lithuanian since it is now inhabited by Lithuanian speaking populace. But the voivodeship which existed in the Polish (not Lituanian) speaking Commonwealth (and not in modern Lithuanian speaking Lithuania) was named województwo trockie, not Trakų vaivadija (which is the name variant in modern Lithuanian language, dating to 19th century). To speak of Trakai Voivodeship is as accurate as to speak of modern Stalingrad or the battle of Volgograd. Google Print: "Trakai Voivodship": 0, "Trakai Voivodeship": 0 vs "Troki Voivodship": 1 "Troki Voivodeship": 2) further show that current name is simple OR. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 11:45, 5 June 2008 (UTC) —Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 11:45, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Survey[edit]

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Nominator support per above rationale.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Piotrus. Space Cadet (talk) 12:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as per WP:NCGN#examples and the rationale provided by the nominator. --Poeticbent talk 18:45, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - because the provided rationale does not hold a drop of water. Arguments about Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Polish language usage are rather dubious, and that's why: Why should we use Polonized Lithuanian toponym (since 1337 known as Trakai (in German it was written - Tracken)) for 1413 establishment. Voivodeship was established in sovereign Grand Duchy of Lithuania (PLC was established circa 150 years later), at the time as Grand Duke was speaking Lithuanian language (not to mention the fact, that Vytautas the Great himself was born in Trakai), as did other rulers of Lithuania for another circa one hundred years since establishment of the voivodeship. Also, let me remind you, that northern part of voivodeship together with it's capital was inhabited by Lithuanian speaking people. The argument about "modern" Lithuanian language does not hold water either - up to this day Lithuanian language is considered one of the most archaic languages in Indoeuropean languages family, and of course, it would be rather easy to find linguistic analysis how the sound of a in Lithuanian word Trakai was morphed into Polish o. Trakas, a singular form of Trakai in Lithuanian means glade. Furthermore, if one would have followed previous discussions, one would easily find out that, Polish language as chancery language in Grand Duchy of Lithuania was adopted only in the very end of 17th century, so I do not see a reason for using Polish transcription of Lithuanian name. And the provided book body count only provides, that there is no English usage tradition. First book speaks about Voivodship of Nowogródek, and does not mention Troki Voivodship at all, besides the fact, that it is about Second Republic of Poland. The last two are written by Polish authors, so they are not exemplary for English use, as it is perfectly right noted by M.K just above.--Lokyz (talk) 20:34, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your argument would be much better if you could cite a single English language publication supporting the OR "Trakai Voivod(e)ship"... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Could you cite any English language piplication which supported your proposal ? M.K. (talk) 10:33, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have cited three, above, several times. Can you cite any English language work to support current title? Not a single cite has been provided so far.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • As it was said numerous times, but I will repeat a) this one "source" does not have proposed name at all, it was just blindly counted as such b) remaining two: [7] Żydzi ziemi bielskiej od połowy XVII w. do 1795 r: studium osadnicze, prawne by Anatol Leszczyński, 1980 and Studia i materiały do dziejów miasta Białegostoku: praca zbiorowa by Jerzy Antoniewicz , Białostockie

Towarzystwo Naukowe, Jerzy Joka , Białostockie Towarzystwo Naukowe hardly can be called a English language publications... M.K. (talk) 08:36, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. We been here before. Three pathetic Ghits is no way a proof of "English" usage... Sources using "Trakai":
    • Daniel Stone in PL-LT State, p. 46 "Palatinate of Trakai"
    • Edmundas Rimsa in Heraldry Past to Present, p. 102 "Voivode provinces of Vilnius and Trakai"
    • Zigmantas Kiaupa in The History of Lithuania Before 1795, p. 164 "Palatinate of Trakai"
    • Encyclopedia Lituanica, vol 1, p. 18 "Palatinate of Trakai"
    • Albertas Gerutis in Lithuania: 700 Years, p. 73 "palatinates of Vilnius and Trakai"
    • S.C. Rowell in an article for English Historical Review, "palatine of Trakai"
    • If anything, it could be argued that it was known as "Palatinate of Trakai". Renata (talk) 22:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, please look carefully. Please count how many of those Ghits are in Polish books with English summaries, how many are published after WWII, and how many are duplicates. Let me know the results. Renata (talk) 12:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are still more modern English works then yours for Trakai (over half of which is written by Lithuanian authors, not surprisingly). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And how many of your Ghits are written by Polish authors? Renata (talk) 13:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. It seems like Troki is more used in English sources, especially when we scratch English-language works written by Lithuanians. - Darwinek (talk) 12:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Lithuanians, whose one of the political centres it has been since its establishment by Gediminas in the 13th ct. (who certainly named it Trakai ("the glades") and not Troki or Trocken) have never called the city that way. Iulius (talk) 13:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Strange enough, Polish was not official language either (not for a single minute). Unless one could prove, that there was some law regulating usage of official and unofficial languages in either one countrys public life before 19th century. Seems very OR'ish to me.--Lokyz (talk) 21:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hah, could you by any means prove that in the 15th - 16th century a significant part of the Voivodeship's ruling classes used Polish as they everyday language? And we are certainly not speaking here about the Voivodeship's rural population (much more numerous than townspeople or nobility) which was overwhelmingly Lithuanian throughout all periods of its existence.Iulius (talk) 10:51, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, Peter, I don't think too many of such details of Lithuanian history are discussed in the said lıngua (and really, I wouldn't rely on google for absolutely everythıng!), but Trakaı is far more ındentıfıable in the said lingua than Trokı, as I'm sure you would agree. ;) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • How many of those 500+ ghits are in books published after WWII? Less than 50... I think the trend is very clear. Renata (talk) 20:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Renata, please - why won't you address the issue that your "Trakai Voivod(e)ship" has 0 ghits, one way or another? Troki Voivodeship may not be very popular, but Trakai Voivodeship is pure OR.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:52, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • IIRC in other votes you supported most used English versions, why not here ? Looking forward to your answer.--Molobo (talk) 00:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Having tried to stay away from these relentless attempts to keep Wikipedia full of chauvinistic motivated biases with a brief hiatus, I need once again to remind those voting "support" to consider your argument against the fact that the city of Cracow has ben so named in the English language for over 300 years, not Kraków (replete with its diacritic). Yet you insist that Kraków's the way it should be presented in the English version of Wikipedia. And the logic if any, that this argument has against using Trakai, is what? Dr. Dan (talk) 18:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Troki is the proper name that is used by sources. --Molobo (talk) 00:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could you name an English source?--Lokyz (talk) 01:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I fail to see what difference it makes if there is an English source or not. What matters is, what language did the population of the city speak at the time? In a bilingual state,it is likely that many people, and certainly the nobility, were bilingual. However the name of the city would have been that used by the population which was certainly not Polish. If a 20th century English author decides to use a Polish name for the city because he or she was writing from the Polish perspective, and the city is only mentioned generally, one can not expect a Lithuanian name to be used. I have a firm belief that a reference work should call things they were called by the speakers within the discussed period and not what a less knowledgeable English writer decides it was, or even worse, the work's editor as a matter of expediency--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 12:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, town's population even in 19th century was exclusively Lithuanian per 93% [9]. M.K. (talk) 19:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • However we are not talking about the times of the 19th century Lithuanian National Revival, which (re)Lithuanized city's inhabitants, but about the times 16th-18th century, when the voivodship did exist, and when the town population was mostly polonized (with minorities of possibly German speakers or Jews).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Really, do you have a secsus of some sort to back your claims? M.K. (talk) 20:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)P.s. answering to his, quite simple we have Polish one source "Żydzi ziemi bielskiej od połowy XVII w. do 1795"[reply]
  • The publication is bilingual, and two more have been cited above. Yes, they were written by Polish authors, but so far you have not found a single English language work - even written by a Lithuanian author - who would think of using "Trakai Voivodeship".--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is the publication really bilingual, or is this just abstract in English?--Lokyz (talk) 22:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the link, from the scraps it is obvious that it is an a translated abstract at the end of the book, not a claimed "bilingual books".--Lokyz (talk) 01:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment the answer to M.K's question is rather obvious - if Piotrus would have read the article on Lithuanian National Revival, he'd surely would notice that it did happen much later than the census of 1862. This only proves, that someone's beliefs about "utter and throughout" Polonization (and supposed re-Lithuanisation) is rather an example of wishfull thinking, than an established fact.--Lokyz (talk) 20:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support. Weak because regardless of what we do, the article will be moved to the Lithuanized version every now and then. Which makes me think that there's no chance we could settle any Lithuania-related issue once and for all. //Halibutt 10:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Renata has cited strong and recent scholarship here. From books. So could we consider discussing Commonwealth naming conventions as a whole instead of on a case-by-case basis? Novickas (talk) 01:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose - provided rationale don't hold water. *) Claims that was known as Troki in the past to its inhabitants, would like to know that trakas means in Polish language, and how is happened that acclaimed linguists suggest that Trakai is authentic and original name. Of course during Polish occupation of the city in 20th century in was know under this name sure... *) But the voivodeship which existed in the Polish (not Lituanian) speaking Commonwealth another "interesting" "argument" Voivodeship was created in 1413 Commonwealth was created only in 1569 and Trkai area was predominately Lithuanian, easy to prove with simple linguistic map... *) To speak of Trakai Voivodeship is as accurate as to speak of modern Stalingrad or the battle of Volgograd. another misinformation, this comparison has nothing to do with Trakai case, as Trakai is original and no doubtable Lithuanian origin name and did not undergone such change as Tsaritsyn > Stalingrad > Volgograd. *) provided Google hints are below criticism as already was noted; just note there are no single English source which would use currently proposed name; btw this provided google hint has nothing to do with proposed name count, as it have name "Voivodship of Nowogródek" classical example of just counting hints instead looking that they actually state.M.K. (talk) 10:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose current title seems in line with naming conventions. Ostap 04:49, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • How so? It's not a title used in English literature, nor by local inhabitants in the discussed time period.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 08:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Present academic sources which would said that Trakai was not know by local inhabitants. And what does trakas mean in Polsh language? M.K. (talk) 08:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • YOU want the current name, YOU present sources showing it is used in English and/or known to locals then. So far you have not done either, unlike me, who have shown the Troki variant is used in English and is written in the official language of the Commonwealth.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 08:32, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nope you failed to present any academic sources which suggest was not know by local inhabitants, despite numerical attempts to use this "argument" M.K. (talk) 08:38, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

Any additional comments:
  • Does this case differ from Free City of Kraków?
  • If so, how?
  • If not, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander; those who insisted on the current spelling for a historic entity there should accept it here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The case is simple. While Kraków was known as Kraków for all of its history, Trakai was not known as such for much of it. And while Kraków was known as such during the times of the Free City, Trakai was known as Troki during its time as a Voivodeship. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 00:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Cracow was known as Cracow in English for a long time; whether it is still is another discussion. In particular, it was so known and discussed in 1815. This will not do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • No P.P., the case may be simple to you, but Kraków was not Kraków for all of its history. Not in the English language, in any case. From 1980 maybe, and by a minority, always without the Polish diacritic. I suppose using your sources and logic, since Litwa has been known as Litwa for all of its history (in Poland), that Lithuania should not be used in English either. Dr. Dan (talk) 18:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would like to hear some clarifications, how the proponents of the term official language understand it's usage in 14th century or even 17th century, i.e. before modern times and before formation of national states. What is the legal basis for claims about official status of the language, and what is the legal result? Like, was the language only one used, and all others were forbiddnen?--Lokyz (talk) 16:24, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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