Talk:Koshchei

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On 11 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Koschei to Koshchei. The result of the discussion was moved.

Untitled[edit]

In Russian there's an abstract concept and pronounced as koschunstvo, which means to do something really evil.
In Ukrainian as a joke I heard a translation of the Russsian Koschei Bessmertniy as Chahlik Nevmiruschiy. Chahliy means extremely old. the Bujan island is located in the kingdom of the glorious Sultan (by A. S. Pushkin)--Grigoryev 04:02, 12 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Koshei has something to do with gold "Там царь Кощей над златом чахнет..."(There is the Tzar Koshei loses health over his gold -Pushkin)–Gnomz⁰⁰⁷(?) 00:21, 19 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Koshei is considered extremely wealthy, the quote refers to this. The translation however does not exactly convey the meaning. Main nuance is greediness of Koschei.--46.109.54.96 (talk) 20:46, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I took out the part about American Gods because I could find no verification of Koschies presence in the book, I then read the book and could not find him—Preceding unsigned comment added by Zoddoom (talk • contribs) 13:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"In Russian there's an abstract concept and pronounced as koschunstvo, which means to do something really evil." - "koschunstvo" means blasphemy or abuse of somebody's memory--83.237.46.248 17:04, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am Russian and do studies in literature, so I think it is neseccary to clarify some matters. There is no evidence that the briefly mentioned Koschey in Pushkin is identical to the Koschey of folk tales. Pushkin was a 19th-century Romantic poet and the quotation is from his Western-styled fantasy poem 'Ruslan and Lyudmila' which has little to do with original Russian folklore. Pushkin often used folklore names for his own purposes. I would also like to point out that 1) the description of Koschey's appearance (as that of an ugly old man) is sheer nonsense. It is only in book illustrations and cartoons (most of them created in the 20th century) that he is given such looks. The actual fairy-tales DO NOT describe Koschey at all. The reference to his appearance sould be moved to 'In Popular Culture'. The last but not the least: deriving the name from 'kost' ('bone') is a wrong folk etymology. 'Koschey' is a very early loanword from Turkic which originally meant 'captive' or 'slave'. It is found in 'The Tale of Igor's Campaign' Good luck89.178.54.173 (talk) 17:11, 17 February 2011 (UTC) P. S. I have partly rewritted the opening section. By now, I have no time to correct the etymology, so I will return to it later.89.178.54.173 (talk) 17:28, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. A better etymology would likely point to the same root as коварный, as this word covers the salient characteristics of Koschei - cunning, insidious, devious, full of intrigue and deception, etc. None of the stories describe him as being "bony." All of them describe him as being cunning and wicked. 12:25, 20 November 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.28.168.44 (talk)

A Ukrainian name is Kostiy The Soulless (Source: Семантико-функціональні особливості називання Костія Бездушного в українських народних чарівних казках (у записах ХІХ ст.) // Семантика мови і тексту : Матеріали ІХ Міжнародної науково-практичної конференції. — Івано-Франківськ : Видавничо-дизайнерський відділ ЦІТ, 2006. — С. 522-524.)--Юе Артеміс (talk) 16:15, 30 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Move[edit]

To comply with WP:RUS, I propose moving this article to "Koshchey". Esn 11:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think this would fall under the "Use conventional names" guideline. "Koschei" would appear to be a convention based on 44,800 Google hits as opposed to under 1000 for "Koshchey". Gr8white 19:42, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Phonetics[edit]

Extremly useful would be a general pronounciation information, something like X-SAMPA or the like—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.168.20.147 (talk) 17:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

--Agreed, this would be very handy. I still don't know if it's Kosh-tshey or Koschey.--Snowgrouse (talk) 01:35, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would say Koshtschey. In German, at least. The main problem is letter "щ", which is a single letter, but is considered as a simultaneous pronounciation of "ш" and "ч". Both do not exist in English and have to be "translated" as well ("sh" as in English and "ch" as in sandwich, accordingly). Hence problematic pronounciation.--46.109.54.96 (talk) 20:59, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is no 't'-sound anywhere in the sound that 'щ' represents. "Shch" is just an unfortunate transliteration. It's basically pronounced as the part of the 'ch' in "sandwich" after the t-sound. I can't speak for the Ukrainian or Polish pronunciation, but the Russian pronunciation would be something like [Kaɕːj'ej] in IPA. The closest you can get in plain English would be "Kash-yey" (the stress is on the 'е', so the 'о' is pronounced like an 'а'). Kolbasz (talk) 23:25, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Helpful. 98.2.208.255 (talk) 19:30, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The last sentence is not very good.- Altenmann >talk 03:40, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Suicide Squad[edit]

Why is the Suicide Squad reference moved? It was a title published by DC comics like Sandman.

Please provide a reference. `'mikka 01:36, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I dont know how to put the reference in. But I can find you the link. Feel free to make the appropo. edit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onslaught_(DC_Comics)#Team_two_.28Suicide_Squad_vol._1_.2317-19.29—Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.127.222 (talk) 04:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

German legends?[edit]

All this is strongly related to German myths of liches, dead sorcerors' ghosts which need to keep their phylacteries safe; these items hold their souls bound to real world, and cannot be destroyed other than through shattering the specified item. Due to this, some translators use koshchey to translate word lich.

Do liches actually exist in German folklore? The article lich seems to indicate otherwise (the word "lich" is indeed cognate with German leich - "corpse" - but use of "lich" to refer to a specific kind of undead is modern [originally it simply meant "body", "corpse"] [1]). On the other hand, monsters or sorcerers whose life is bound to some kind of item do appear in a number of fairy tales and myths; TV Tropes lists multiple examples. - Mike Rosoft (talk) 18:08, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to go ahead and delete that paragraph. I have never come upon a germanic or otherwise legend similar to Koschei, even though I have frequently heard that the concept of Lich has a strong folkloric precedent, although I suspect there may be a similar concept in the Arabian Nights. Besides, It's already clear that the first instance of usage of the word "lich" refering to a person who achieves immortality hiding his soul in an object is in the 1977 Monster Manual by Gary Gygax. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.84.130.6 (talk) 16:44, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just want to bring attention to the connection of Koschei to island of Buyan, which is considered to be island Ryugen near Germany.--46.109.54.96 (talk) 20:51, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Jürgen note[edit]

In Cabell's "Jurgen: A Comedy of Justice," Jürgen praises the Devil, not Koschei. Koschei rewards Jürgen for being the first person ever to speak well of the Devil, who is Koschei's creation like everything else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.18.215.189 (talk) 22:52, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Inaccurate[edit]

The article is very inaccurate about this character of Russian folklore and it's story. --92.202.175.137 (talk) 07:13, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What do you suggest we do about it? —Tamfang (talk) 06:33, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Horcruxes[edit]

It seems to me obvious that the legend of Koschei the Immortal was the inspiration for Horcruxes in the universe of J. K. Rowling. Shouldn't we mention it?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ceplm (talk • contribs) 11:07, 30 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Doctor Who[edit]

Koschei is also said to be the true name of The Master in BBC's Doctor Who, as that is the name the third Doctor uses to refer to the Master when he comes to save him in the Death Zone on Gallifrey. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:3101:2A01:1DF0:432D:31B2:A6C7 (talk) 16:07, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Hides his soul"[edit]

I think the description that Koschei hides his soul and then merely offandedly mentioning that it is usually called "death" is a very weird framing of it. Specifically, the current text reads "He hides his soul inside nested objects to protect it. For example, the soul (or in the tales, it is usually called "death") may be hidden[...]". Now, just as this says in a roundabout way, usually the tales say Koschei hides his death. I am not aware of the soul being prominently featured in the stories in this context, so I don't see why it is empathised to much in the summary. I suggest we reword the summary to remove mention of the soul in this way, or at least make the soul mentioned offhandedly in the brackets: if the tales usually say Koschchei hides his death, I do not see why the summary shouldn't put it that way, too. I am not sure where the idea of hiding his soul came from in the first place? In the tellings I am familiar with, it is always his death that's hidden, in a fairy tale kind of literalism: since his death is hidden, he can't die until his death delivered to him, usually by the hero who goes and takes the needle out of the egg and puts it on an arrow or whatever. It strikes me as some sort of Western reading or some other second-hand reinterpretation. I don't know if it deserves to be dropped entirely from the article, but regardless I think it shouldn't be the primary framing in the summary. 46.208.77.174 (talk) 02:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like a Chechen fairy tale from "Golden Leaves"[edit]

In the Chechen fairy tale "Golden Leaves" there is a negative character, a three-headed eagle, who kidnaps girls, as well as golden leaves from a copper tree. To kill this eagle, you must first kill three chicks with its soul, which are in the duck, and the duck is in the hare, and the hare is inside the ram, which is located seven mountains away and can eat hay mown by sixty-three mowers

В чеченской сказке «Золотые листья» есть отрицательный персонаж трёхголовый орёл, который похищает девушек, а также золотые листья с медного дерева. Чтобы убить этого орла, надо сначала убить трёх птенцов с его душой, которые находятся в утке, а утка в зайце, а заяц внутри барана, который находится за семью горами и может съесть сено, скошенное шестьюдесятью тремя косарями.

In folklore, he is an evil sorcerer and necromancer, whose death is "hidden" in several magical animals and objects embedded in each other: "There is an island on the sea on the ocean, there is an oak tree on that island, a chest is buried under an oak tree, a hare is in the chest, a duck is in the hare, an egg is in the duck, a needle is in the egg, — Koshchei's death"

В фольклоре — злой чародей и некромант, смерть которого «спрятана» в нескольких, вложенных друг в друга, волшебных животных и предметах: «На море на океане есть остров, на том острове дуб стоит, под дубом сундук зарыт, в сундуке — заяц, в зайце — утка, в утке — яйцо, в яйце — игла, — смерть Кощея».

Alexander Sergeevich Pushkin visited the Caucasus twice. For the first time — in 1820, he spent about two months in the Caucasian Mineral Waters. And the next time — after 9 years — contrary to the ban of the authorities, he made a long journey through Stavropol, Mineralnye Vody, Georgia, to the Turkish Arzrum and back. The poet's meetings with the Caucasus turned out to be very fruitful — they resulted in lyrics, poems, prose and even drawings. Pushkin based his works on the mythology of different peoples. Mifologistica (talk) 01:20, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References, please. - Altenmann >talk 07:56, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 11 November 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) The Night Watch (talk) 23:35, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Koschei → Koshchei – It appears to be correct translit from ru. - Altenmann >talk 22:28, 11 November 2023 (UTC) - Altenmann >talk 22:28, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nomination. This matter was raised 17 years ago under Talk:Koschei#Move, above. In the article itself, Koschei#Further reading, there is * Johns, Andreas. 2000. “The Image of Koshchei Bessmertnyi in East Slavic Folklore”. In: FOLKLORICA – Journal of the Slavic, North European, and Eurasian Folklore Association 5 (1): 7–24. https://doi.org/10.17161/folklorica.v5i1.3647. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 03:56, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:COMMONNAME. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:35, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.