Talk:Cynghanedd

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Inaccuracies[edit]

I'm not an expert on the cynghanedd, so I don't feel qualified to edit the page, but I think you'll find that the difference between Croes and Traws is not as you say. The important thing in cynghanedd is that it's the consonants around the final accented syllable of both halves of the line that are important. Therefore if both halves end in a monosyllable, the final consonants will not agree ("Ddoe'n fud a heddiw'n fedd" - dd:n:f:(d) - dd:n:f:(dd)). Indeed, it is a "gwall" for them to do so.

If both halves end in a polysyllable, all the consonants in the first half that precede the final unstressed syllable must be repeated in the second half ("Adeiladwyd gan dlodi" - d:l:d:(d) - d:l:d).

If the last word in the first half is monosyllabic, and the last word in the second half is polysyllabic, then the consonants preceding the final stressed syllable in the first half must be repeated in the second immediately preceding the final unstressed syllable in the second half ("Uchel gaer uwch y weilgi" - ch:l:g:(r) - ch:l:g).

It is a "gwall" (whatever that translates to - sorry) to end the first half with a polysyllable and the second with a monosyllable, if I remember correctly.

So, to cut to the chase, both your examples are of cynghanedd groes. Cynghannedd traws allows for the insertion of additional consonants into the line before the repetition of consonants in the second half ("Gwylio hen mewn gwely haf" - (g:l:h - (m:n):g:l:h). It has nothing to do with consonants that follow the final stressed syllable as the page implies.

No, what you describe is the difference between cynghanedd gytbwys and cynghanedd anghytbwys, which can be both croes and traws (and the difference between the two types is correctly described). It is true that the examples are flawed, though; I'll try and find a better one Edricson 20:06, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I actually wrote that part (together with most of the rest of the article) because there weren't any examples on Wikipedia and I thought it was sad. I'm only a dysgwr, so I'm not surprised I messed up, though. I'd like to see this page improved by someone who actually knew a lot of stuff about the subject. :) Marnanel 14:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the constructive discussion. I'm sure you're correct about my corrections being mistaken. I'm definitely no expert: just didn't think the examples given were quite correct either. And thanks to marnanel for at least making an entry. Perhaps someone should ask Mei Mac or one of that crowd to contribute an article? Or the Kymro Kanol (http://kymrokanol.blogspot.com/) :) Sorry, forgot my login. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.179.113.125 (talk) 19:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]

OK, there's a lot of traditional terminology involved, and sometimes things appear more complex than they really are. There are essentially three classes of cynhanedd lines 1. "consonantal" (to translate Morris-Jones' Welsh term) which includes _croes_ and _draws_, 2. _sain_ and 3. _llusg_.

In type (1) the line is divided into two section separated by a pause (_gorffwysfa_ 'resting place'). The syllable before the pause (confusingly often referred to as the _gorffwysfa_ as well) has to be either a fully stressed monosyllable or the final syllable of a stressed polysyllable. These would both have been stressed in Old Welsh, and even after the shift of the main stress accent on to the penult in polysylls, it still retains a distinct pitch accent, and this mostly serves as the reference point in cynghanedd. The same restrictions apply to the final syllable, the _prifodl_ (lit. 'main rhyme'). This will normally rhyme with another line in the verse. The gorffwyfa syllable and the prifodl must NOT rhyme. Nb. in general in Welsh verse only final syllables rhyme, and stressed and unstressed syllables rhyme, so in Welsh "yellow" would rhyme with "tow" and with "sparrow" for instance, whereas a rhyme like "yellow" ~ "mellow" would be rather over-egging the pudding to Welsh ears, and only used for special effect. Oh, yes, cynghanedd lines of all types have to have an exact number of syllables, stressed and unstressed counting equally. The number depends on the verse type being used, seven is the most common, and most cynghanedd example lines are of seven sylls.

OK, in all types of consonantal cynghanedd there is repeated serial alliteration of consonants (with a few special get-out rules, allowances for euphony etc which I don't intend to go into here). All consonants coming before the final vowel in the first part of the line, must be answered in sequence immediately before the vowel of the final syllable.

There are basically three possibilities. (a) There are one or more consonants left over in the middle of the line, this is _cynghanedd draws_. (b) The two alliteration chains join end to end and use up all the consonants in the line -- _cyng. groes_. (c) The two chains actually overlap, so some consonants count twice (this is really showing off!) -- _cyng. groes o gysyllt_.

As if this wasn't enough, there is a further subdivision cutting across the above, according to whether the two parts of the line end in stressed monosyllables (_dyrchafedig_) or the final syllable of a penult stressed polysyll (_disgynedig_). Of the four theoretical possibilities only three are in fact used. (i) Both halves end in a stressed monosyll. (_cytbwys acennog_ 'balanced accented'); (ii) both halves end in polysylls with penult stress (_cytbwys ddiacen_ 'balanced unaccented'); and (iii) the first half ends in an accented syllable, the second not (_anghytbwys ddisgynedig_ 'unbalanced descending'). In the 'balanced' types, the final vowel acts as the terminus for each alliteration chain, but in the 'unbalanced' variety, the stressed vowels in each half are aligned, but any consonant(s) immediately following the stressed vowel of the first half must be answered between the stressed and the final vowel of final polysyll.

Simple yes? And the Welsh can compose this stuff by ear, off the top of their heads as part of complex verse forms on the spur of the moment. Totally mind-boggeling :-) Oh, I forgot to mention that the exceptional polysylls that have final stress (usually because two syllables have collapsed into one) fit into the above patterns like a phrase ending in a stressed monosyllable.

Some e.g.s from _Cerdd dafod_ the Bible of cynghanedd :

---

Type 1 (a) (i) Gan Dduw | mae di(gon i ddyn [g-n-dd (m-d) g-n-dd]

Type 1 (a) (ii) Dy wyneb | fal (od unnos [d-n (b-f-l) d-n]

Type 1 (a) (iii) Mae'r haf | wedi (marw hefyd [m-rhVf (d) m-rhVf]

--

Type 1 (b) (i) Y llwybrau gynt | lle bu'r gan [ll-b-r-g : ll-b-r-g]

Type 1 (b) (ii) Wedi trawster | daw tristwch [d-t-r-s-t : d-t-r-s-t]

Type 1 (b) (iii) Eryr gwyllt | ar war gelltydd [r-r-gVllt : r-r-gVllt]

--

Type 1 (c) (i) Gwragedd a (gwyr | i gudd gant [g-r-g-dd-G-r-g-dd-g]

Type 1 (c) (ii) Ardreth e(rydr | a thiroedd [r-d-r-th-R-d-r-th-r]

Type 1 (c) (iii) Dêl im (dal | am y dolur [d-l-m-DVL-m-dVl]

---

That will do for now, if you want the rest give some feedback :-) Mongvras (talk) 02:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the 99.999% of us who do not speak Welsh[edit]

It would be nice to have a phonetic transliteration of the word. Haiduc 00:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, for what good it will do you, the word means "harmony", but in respect of poetry, it only means that in a figurative sense, I guess. However, the main point is that since English poetry has no equivalent, there is no equivalent English word. Or as Waldo (I think) said:

"... not foul nor fish / An englyn writ in English"

(Forgot my login. Sorry. But I'm the one who started this discussion)

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