Talk:Ike Turner

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Good articleIke Turner has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
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March 6, 2021Good article nomineeListed

REWRITE . . . SO FAR . . .[edit]

Copy and paste of large section of article, with comments by User:Johncheverly
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

THE ARTICLE IS EXCESSIVELY WORDY WITH POOR SENTENCE STRUCTURE. THERE ARE ALSO A LOT OF STATEMENTS WITHOUT VERIFICATION, SOME POTENTIALLY LIBELOUS. HERE IS WHAT I HAVE, THUS FAR:


Ike Wister Turner (November 5, 1931[1][2] – December 12, 2007) was an Americanmusician, bandleader, songwriter, arranger, talent scout, and record producer. In a career that lasted more than half a century, his repertoire included blues, soul, rock, and funk. He is most popularly known for his 1960s work with his then wife Tina Turner in the Ike & Tina Turner revue. Turner won two Grammy Awards and was nominated for three others.[7] Alongside his former wife, Turner was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1991 and in 2001 was inducted into the St. Louis Walk of Fame.

Early life (1931-45) [edit]

Ike Turner's birthplace and childhood home at 304 Washington Avenue in the Riverton neighborhood of Clarksdale, Mississippi.[15] Turner was born in Clarksdale, Mississippi, on 5 November 1931, to Beatrice Cushenberry (1909–195?), a seamstress, and Isaiah (or Izear) Luster Turner, a Baptist minister. The younger of two siblings, Turner had an elder sister, named Ethel May.[11] Turner believed for many years that he was named Izear Luster Turner, Jr. after his father. He discovered his name was registered as Ike Wister Turner while applying for his first passport.[11] He never discovered the origin of his name.

Turner had claimed that his youth was troubled. His birth father died when Ike was a boy. Turner alleged that his stepfather was a violent alcoholic[11] . Turner also claimed to have been molested as early as six. (NEW SECTION HEADING HERE) Turner said that as a boy he began hanging out at the local Clarksdale radio station, WROX, located in the Alcazar Hotel in downtown Clarksdale. WROX was notable as one of the first radio stations to employ a black DJ, Early Wright, to play blues records.[21] DJ John Frisella put Turner to work as he watched the record turntables. Soon he was left to play records while the DJ went across the street for coffee.[22] Turner described this as "the beginning of my thing with music."[23] This led to Turner being offered a job by the station manager as the DJ on the late-afternoon shift. The job meant he had access to all the new releases. On his show he played a diverse range of music, playing Louis Jordan alongside early rockabilly records.[19] Ike Turner was inspired to learn the piano on a visit to his friend Ernest Lane's house, where he heard Pinetop Perkins playing Lane's fathers' piano. Turner convinced his mother to pay for him to have piano lessons with a teacher; however he did not take to the formal style of playing, instead spending the money in a pool hall, then learning boogie-woogie from Perkins. He taught himself to play guitar by playing along to old blues records.[24][25] At some point in the 1940s, Turner moved into Clarksdale’s Riverside Hotel, run by Mrs. Z.L. Ratliff.[26]The Riverside played host to a great number of touring musicians, including Sonny Boy Williamson II and Duke Ellington. Turner associated and played music with many of these guests.[18]

Music career [edit]

Tophatters to Kings of Rhythm (1946–1952) [edit]

Main article: Kings of Rhythm

See also: Rocket 88

In high school, a teenage Turner joined a huge local rhythm ensemble called The Tophatters, who played dances around Clarksdale, Mississippi.[3] Members of the band were taken from Clarksdale musicians, and included Turner's school friends Raymond Hill, Eugene Fox and Clayton Love.[27][28] The Tophatters played big-band arrangements from sheet music. Turner, who was trained by ear and could not sight read music, would learn the pieces by listening to a version on record at home, pretending to be reading the music during rehearsals.[3] The band had over 30 members and eventually split into two,[29] with one act who wanted to carry on playing dance-band jazz calling themselves The Dukes of Swing; the other, led by Turner becoming the Kings of Rhythm. Said Turner: "We wanted to play blues, boogie-woogie and Roy Brown, Jimmy Liggins, Roy Milton."[3] Turner would keep the name of the band throughout his career, although it went through considerable lineup changes over time. Their early stage performances consisted largely of covers of popular jukebox hits. They were helped by B. B. King, who helped them to get a steady weekend gig and recommended them to Sam Phillips at Sun Studio.[30] In the 50s, Turner's group got regular airplay from live sessions on WROX-Am,[21] and KFFA radio in Helena, Arkansas.[31]

Sun Studio at 706 Union Avenue in Memphis, Tennessee, where in 1951 Turner and the Kings of Rhythm recorded Rocket 88, one of the first Rock and roll records. Turner would later work at the studio as in-house producer forSam Phillips. About this time, Turner and Ernest Lane became unofficial roadies for blues singer Robert Nighthawk, who often played live on WROX. The pair sat in playing drums and piano on radio sessions and supported Nighthawk at blues dates around Clarksdale. His association with Nighthawk [32] gave him access to opportunities to play for other headliners around the “?chittlin’ circuit”, such as Sonny Boy Williamson II (Alex "Rice" Miller),Howlin' Wolf, Charley Booker, Elmore James, Muddy Waters and Little Walter.[23] Performances typically lasted for about twelve hours, from early evening to dawn the next day. Turner described the scenario to an interviewer:

“

We played juke joints; we'd start playing at 8.00pm and wouldn't get off till 8.00am. No intermissions, no breaks. If you had to go to the restroom, well that's how I learned to play drums and guitar! When one had to go, someone had to take his place.[23]

”

[33] (NEW ROCKET 88 HEADING NEEDED.)

It was around this time that Turner and his band came up with the song, "Rocket 88". The song was written as the group drove down to Memphis to record at Sam Phillips' Sun Studios. Turner came up with the introduction and first verse, the band collaborated on the rest with Brenston, the band's saxophonist, on vocals. Phillips sold the recording to Chess in Chicago, who released it under the name "Jackie Brenston and His Delta Cats". Although, the record sold approximately half a million copies, Turner claimed he was paid a meagre $20. And he success of the record caused tensions and ego clashes in the band. Jackie Brenston to leave to pursue a solo career, taking some of the original members with him. Turner, without a band and disappointed his hit record had not created more opportunities for him, disbanded the Kings of Rhythm for a few years.[33]

Session musician and talent scout (1952–1956) [edit]

After the brief success of Rocket 88, Turner became a session musician and production assistant for Sam Philips and the Modern Records owners the Bihari Brothers. He began by contributing piano to a B. B. King track "You Know I Love You". Joe Bihari insisted on Turner's services on another King track 3 O'Clock Blues. It became King's first hit.[4] Bihari also signed him as a talent scout, paying him to search out southern musicians who might be worth recording.[33] Turner also wrote new material for the artists to perform, which, unknown to him theBihari Brothers registered the copyright on. Turner estimated he wrote 78 hit records for the Biharis. Artists Turner discovered for Modern included Bobby Bland, Howlin' Wolf and Rosco Gordon. He played piano on sessions with them and other lesser known artists such asThe Prisonaires, Ben Burton Orchestra, Little Milton, Matt Cockrell and Dennis Binder.[4] While he was contractually obligated to the Bihari Brothers, he continued to work on the sly for Sam Phillips at Sun Studios, where he was effectively the in-house producer. His conflicting business commitments caused problems. Turner cut two Howlin' Wolf tracks, "How Many More Years" and "Moanin' at Midnight," which Phillips sent to Chess Records. Turner then took Wolf across the state border, re-recorded the tracks without Phillips' or Chess's knowledge, and sent these cuts to Modern/RPM. Turner also attempted to poach Elmore James from Trumpet Records and record him for Modern. Trumpet found out and Modern had to cancel the record. However James did eventually sign for Modern, with Turner playing piano on a recording of James at Club Desire in Canton.[4][34]

St. Louis (1956–59) [edit]

In 1956, Turner took a reformed version of the Kings of Rhythm north to St. Louis,[35] including Kizart, Sims, O'Neal, Jessie Knight Jnr and Turner's third wife --3RD WIFE??? WHO WERE THE OTHER TWO???-- Annie Mae Wilson Turner on piano and vocals. It was at this time that Turner moved over to playing guitar to accommodate Annie Mae, taking lessons from Willie Kizart to improve.[36][37] Turner maintained strict discipline over the band by insisting they live in a large house with him so he could conduct early morning rehearsals at a moment's notice. Up until the age of 30, Turner was a teetotaler --check spelling-- and had never taken drugs. He insisted all members of his band also adopt this policy, and would fire anyone he even suspected of breaking the rules.[11] He would also fine or physically assault --serious accusation-- band-members if they played a wrong note. Starting off playing at a club, Kingsbury's ---spelling correct???-- in Madison, Illinois, within a year Turner had built up a full schedule of gigs, establishing his group as one of the most highly rated on the St. Louis club circuit, and vying for popularity with their main competition, Sir John's Trio featuring Chuck Berry. The bands would play all-nighters in St. Louis, then cross the river to the clubs of East St. Louis, Illinois, and continue playing until dawn. In St. Louis for the first time Turner, was exposed to a developing white teenage audience who were excited by R&B. The Club Imperial, which was popular with white teenagers, The Dynaflow, The Moonlight Lounge, Club Riviera and the West End Walters all were venues for the New Kings of Rhythm. In addition to Kingsbury’s the group also played Club Manhattan and The Sportsman in East Saint Louis.[36][37] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johncheverly (talk • contribs) 03:43, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not add multiple - in this case, a ridiculously large number of - tags to the article without proper explanation. Please do not copy and paste large sections of article text onto this page - it makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to see what changes you are proposing. Please also consider making minor edits - such as sub-headings - to the article yourself. If other editors do not agree with your suggestions, they will revert you, and there can then be a more focused discussion here. Please do not SHOUT by using capital letters - at me or anyone else. It's rude. And please remember to sign your posts on talk pages with four of these: ~ Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:47, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hey John, if you want to rewrite the article, may I suggest you do it in your userspace? Somewhere like User:Johncheverly/Ike Turner draft? That way, you can edit it as many times as you feel necessary without clogging up the talk page? Thanks. Go Phightins! 10:44, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Ghmyrtle and Go I am going to put this in my sandbox to work on and delete this section. In all my years of using Wikipedia and my brief months of editing, the Ike Turner article is the most poorly written accumulation of syntax that I have ever waded through.johncheverly 18:19, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your comments are noted. However, please assume good faith, and please avoid making personal attacks - implicit or explicit - on the many very experienced editors who have contributed to the article so far. Several projects have graded the article as C class - plenty of room for improvement, but by no means one of the worst articles here. It would probably be a very good idea for you to bring specific suggestions for improving the text here to the talk page first, rather than making the edits yourself, so that we can achieve a consensus on the changes necessary. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:15, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The popular nature of this aricle - is this a True Crimes site or an Encyclopedia[edit]

"popular" writing style adopted in this article:

Turner recounted how he was introduced to sex at the age of six by a middle-aged lady called Miss Boozie. Walking past her house to school, she would invite him to help feed her chickens, and then take him to bed. This continued for some years. Turner claimed to not be traumatized by this, commenting that "in those days they didn't call it abuse, they called it fun". He was also sexually molested by two other women before he was twelve.

Really. I'm from the UK and we call it the "entertainment" industry for a reason. The tone of this article needs to be balanced - less of an "exposé" to more of a "solid biography". In any encyclopedia its common to find points to do with personality but a balance has to be struck - when sensationalism becomes the main feature of any article then scholarship gives way to false accounting.

As a good example we have Suetonius writing on the Caesars - great book but I'd reserve judgement.

Sluffs (talk) 19:53, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Rocket 88 Credit[edit]

Jackie Brenston was credited with writing "Rocket 88." Turner certainly had a prominent role in the recording, but the way this currently reads, it's as if Turner was the primary composer. I suppose we'll never know for sure, Turner claimed to have written the song, but no one in the media ever asked Brenston's opinion on the matter. Brenston died nearly 30 years before Turner did, so perhaps Turner's claims should be taken with a grain of salt. I'd like to reword this to indicate that Brenston was credited with writing the song, but Turner's piano intro was later used nearly note-for-note by Little Richard in "Good Golly Miss Molly." There are sources for both of these statements. Where is the source for Ike having written the first verse, and the group collaborating on the rest? That should be removed if there is no source. Both the Brenston and Rocket 88 wikipedia articles indicate that Brenston was credited with writing the song. If you know of the source, please let me know. I'll take a crack at editing in a few days. Tidewater 2014 (talk) 16:36, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Your interpretation looks correct to me - go for it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:56, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My rather extravagant X-mas present to myself was Peter Guralnick's new biography of Sam Phillips - who recorded Rocket 88. Phillips was not impressed with the songs that Turner's band played for him and he asked if they had any more. They had something that "they'd been working on - it wasn't fully rhymed up, but it got a pretty good reaction whenever they did it. . . ... it was an almost literal take off on Jimmy Liggins' 1948 hit "Cadillac Boogie," with the words changed a little." They started off with Ike singing it but Phillips was not happy and asked if anyone else in the band could sing it. Ike said, Brenston could do it, ,"which was ironic, the other members of the band must have thought, because it was, after all, Jackie's song." (pp. 105-106). What ever that means in terms of who wrote it. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 18:54, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Done, and I decided not to mention the songwriting, since this is Turner's article. The Brenston writing credit is seen in both the Brenston and Rocket 88 articles. I focused more on Turner's piano playing. If anyone has read either of the Turner biographies, it may be worthwhile to include his thoughts on the songwriting issue, if it was discussed. Tidewater 2014 (talk) 21:58, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Dubious sentence and overall tone[edit]

I have marked the following sentence as dubious: "The facts surrounding Turner's marriage to Anna Mae Bullock (Tina Turner) have been very publicly debated." Not sure what this even means. Overall, I found this article to be a bit slanted. Some other wording (which I have edited out) seemed to imply that Tina Turner's account of Ike Turner's abuse is suspect. This is a bit odd, considering that Ike repeatedly admitted to the abuse in writing. SunCrow (talk) 03:39, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the article now, I am even more concerned about the tone and POV. Every time Ike's domestic violence toward Tina is mentioned, the article goes out of its way to cast doubt on Tina's accusations and to make her the "bad guy". The lede even goes so far as to say that Tina's accusations of domestic violence "impacted his career". It's sort of like saying that Woodward and Bernstein's reporting impacted Nixon's career. Furthermore, the article is almost endless and includes a good deal of minute detail that doesn't need to be there. I plan on making some edits to address both issues and have tagged the article accordingly.SunCrow (talk) 10:40, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This article is shorter than the article on Jimi Hendrix and Ike Turner's career spanned 6 decades. The lede says "Turner's cocaine addiction and legal troubles, together with accounts by Tina Turner of domestic violence (published in her autobiography I, Tina and the portrayal of him in its film adaptation What's Love Got to Do with It), impacted his career in the 1980s and 1990s." That does not make Tina Turner look like the bad guy. It explains the implications of what happened to his career.Twixister (talk) 17:39, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Woodward and Bernstein's reporting did impact Nixon's career. The difference here is that Tina didn't deserve what she got. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:45, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't about our opinions on what Tina deserved. It's just stating facts. After the revelations of their marriage he received negative publicity. That isn't to say it wasn't warranted, it's just stating the implications of his drug addiction and the release of her book which led to the movie.Twixister (talk) 18:10, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes agree, facts. I'm struck my "opinion". But it is still my opinion. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:12, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm concerned about edits that claim to remove "a good deal of minute detail that doesn't need to be there". It is undeniable that Turner was a very important figure in the development of rock music, and, if material is well referenced, the presumption should be that it should remain. The article is long but not excessively so, given the length and significance of his career. I endorse the points made by Twixister. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:41, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Two marriages[edit]

The Marriages section contains these sentences: "In 1995, Turner married St. Louis native singer Jeanette Bazzell. They met in 1987; she started as an Ikette before becoming his lead singer. They divorced in 2000, but remained friends.
On October 8, 2006, Turner married Audrey Madison in Las Vegas after six years of dating. They met in 1993; she started as an Ikette before becoming his lead singer....". Assuming that this is factually correct - that they both started as Ikettes, and both became his lead singers - there surely needs to be at least one "also" in there... otherwise many readers will think that this precise duplication of wording may be a drafting error that has occurred somewhere along the line in the editing process. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:40, 29 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Like Tina, it seems Audrey was also beaten by Ike, as she says in her autobiography. Jeanette also notable in her own right, it seems. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:51, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:50, 12 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've added two "also"s. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:29, 12 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

death of father was industrial accident, no racism[edit]

https://web.archive.org/web/20130131131240/http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/King-of-Rhythm_-Remembering-Ro.aspx

this is your own footnote nr 18, why playing racism card?

"After his father died terribly from an industrial accident and his mother had a nervous breakdown, Turner was raised by Mrs. Z.L. Ratliff, the proprietor of Clarksdale’s Riverside Hotel, a former African-American hospital where the blues singer Bessie Smith breathed her last." 2003:CA:A74B:AB00:F1FC:826D:F685:A821 (talk) 05:40, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

POV, other[edit]

Basically this sentence

According to Turner, Tina suggested Ann fill in as an Ikette because although she could not sing, she was attractive.

Possibly has a POV of whoever written that sentence. 

Also, Mia was born Cicily Rashale Turner not born with the name Mia, according to her birth certificate obtained by the California Birth Index and on Ancestry, which says she was born in Bakersfield, California in 1969. [1] post says the same too. Her birth certificate was also shown on Daily Mail, which is unreliable but the picture gives a full sense of what was Mia’s birth name. Also see this [2] is correct too. Don't prove me wrong but I am correct.  TheGreatestLuvofAll ( chat with me ) 21:04, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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