Talk:Ivan Fyodorov (printer)

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"Annihilated monument"[edit]

Regarding the phrase:

The monuments to him in Lvov were annihilated by the Ukrainian nationalists in 1997.

Disregarding any personal judgements about "Ukrainian Nationalists", I was surprised to see this because I have not heard that the monument was ruined. I found the following articles (both in Russian) of post-1997 that confirm the monument existence: this 2003 article and also this 2004 article. Please respond with any info here. The info from these articles, along with wikilinked Ukrainian WP article may be used to improve this English WP entry. I will delete the phrase about annihilation unless someone confirms it here soon. -Irpen 19:17, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

http://www.sedmitza.ru/index.html?sid=198&did=2302&p_comment=belief
http://pravoslavye.org.ua/index.php?r_type=&action=fullinfo&id=6297
These articles state that Ivan's tomb and the nearby monument were annihilated in the 1990s. Another monument, erected in 1977 near the Ascension church, was to be demolished by municipal authorities in 1997 but this didn't come to pass "through intervention of Russian population". -Ghirlandajo 07:36, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I completely dislike church sources. They are very dirty. Ilya K 13:33, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The best thing would be to ask someone living in the city or at least check more sources. Yes, the controversy is there, but as presented right now it is not neutral. First of all, there is a "not annihilated monument". Second, look at this article: "Во Львове открылась мемориальная доска в память о первопечатнике Иване Федорове (28 декабря 2003)". The last thing I want is to censor the info about vandalism of nationalist extremists or the local govs that choose to follow up on a convenient rhetoric. However, if we want to have this sensitive issue mentioned, we have to research an issue a little bit, stick to the facts and present it neutrally. It is still better to say nothing at all than to have an extreme POV phrase like "The monuments to him in Lvov were annihilated by the Ukrainian nationalists in 1997". This is misleading. Could anyone provide more facts on this story? Please no flames. -Irpen 18:17, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

Well, now I feel I should delete this mention. Sources you mentioned are propaganda. They contain many mistakes and unwieghted offensive phrases. I can give details if you like. Even if annihilation really took place, it should be detaily investigated. It seems to be a good fact in article about post soviet church authorities annihilating culture heritage. Ilya K 18:53, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Ilya's deletion of the text in the form it appeared. However, I disagree that the controversy about Fyoderov's memorabilia in Lvov does not deserve to be mentioned in this article at all. We should do more research on the issue and return to it mentioning the facts which are indisputable and drawn from solid sources. It's not just "post-soviet authorities" issue in general. It is about extremist wings of Ukrainian nationalism and the corrupted city authorities who choose to switch to a new ideology with an equal zeal. This is not at all a single incident in Lviv. I remember reading about changing the main city street name there from "Peace" (yes it was call the Street of Peace, not "Lenin Street") to Stepan Bandera Avenue, definitely a very controversial step and a very controversial figure to say the least. Back to our article, is it worth moving it to "Ivan Fyoderov" or "Feoderov"? What do you think? -Irpen 20:28, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC) The monument is not annihilated. It is still standing proudly in Lviv. Ukrainian Nationalists are very proud of Fedorov's monument because Fedorov loved Lviv and printed books for Ukrainian children. This year authorities plan on putting a signature on it. Till now it wasn't signed and many tourists were asking "who is this man" . Euro 2012 is coming and authorities decided to sign the monument the way Fedorov signed his work in Lviv " Feodorovych Ivan" As to the name Fyodorov or Fedorov. Fyodorov is INCORRECT. Modern Russian often make that mistake. At the time of Fedorov Cyrillic alphabet had no letter «ё» sounding like "yo". It didn't exist and wasn't pronounced. He pronounced his name exactly how he wrote it FEDOROV or FEODOROVYCH or FEDOROVYCH. Never Fyodorov. Old Cyrillic letters "e" and "o" are still the same in todays Cyrillic. Nikolay, August 24, 2011 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.58.207.146 (talk) 02:07, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Moschus in Fyodorov's name is not about the deer[edit]

At the time the inhabitants of Muscovy were called Latin: moschi (see [1] or [2]); moschus is therefore simply "from Moscow". Wikidim2 (talk) 01:48, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do you really think that tidbit "Moscovia derives from Moschi, the ancient inhabitants of etc" hold water???--Galassi (talk) 02:09, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It just shows what "moschi" used to mean in Latin, that's all. I do not understand the reason for your "holding water" comment (and it sounds somewhat offensive to me). I am not using the text for its ethnological value. It is only used to illustrate the meaning of the word few centuries ago. Wikidim2 (talk) 02:17, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. --Galassi (talk) 02:35, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Current text is not supported by any source either. Why did you delete the request for sources? Interpreting the Latin word in a particular way requires a source, especially if the word has many meanings, as this one does. Wikidim2 (talk) 18:35, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Galassi's work-disturbing ignorance at its best. It is common knowlegde that Ivan Fyodorov was called Iван Москвитин or "Друкар-москвитин" by Lvov locals. That's what he translated into Latin. Pretty ridiculous to interpret some deers here. --Voyevoda (talk) 20:35, 14 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Can you reliably document that?--Galassi (talk) 20:13, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The tomb of Ivan Fyodorov bears the inscription in Ruthenian language: "Иоанн Федорович, друкар Москвитин, который своим тщанием друкование занебдоша обновил". [3] What is you citation on musk-deer, stupid? Ridiculous. --Voyevoda (talk) 20:51, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See the facsimile of Ivan's signature and read up on WP:NPA.--Galassi (talk) 22:29, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Where is your legendary musk-deer? --Voyevoda (talk) 10:50, 18 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musk_deer .--Galassi (talk) 10:58, 18 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Where is the link between Fyodorov and the musk-deer except for your illiterate interpretation of "Moschus"? --Voyevoda (talk) 11:11, 18 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Moscovite in Latin is moscovita, and musk deer is moschus. Duh...--Galassi (talk) 11:31, 18 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Aren't you ashamed of your ignorance? There were plenty of variations of Muscovite, Moschus is one of them. In the Middle Ages, the was a theory that the Moschi were sons of the biblical Meshech. Why don't you just remove yourself if you are not acquainted with the matter. --Voyevoda (talk) 11:57, 18 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fyodorov instead of Fedorovych[edit]

  • Google books search: "Ivan Fyodorov" - 686 hits, "Ivan Fedorovych" - 389 hits
  • Google WWW search: "Ivan Fyodorov" - 9,300 hits, "Ivan Fedorovych" - 4,700 hits.

As we see here, Fyodorov is more common. Please stop warring on the article name. --Voyevoda (talk) 10:56, 18 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nice try. Google picks up all the wiki mirrors, and clones, so your argument is in bad faith.--Galassi (talk) 11:06, 18 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Google books, too? --Voyevoda (talk) 11:10, 18 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In Russia, he is known and continues to be known as Fedorov. However in pre and post Soviet Ukraine, Poland and Belarus he is and was known as Fedoroych, which is how he actually signed his name, and the way he spelled his name in his publications. Bandurist (talk) 00:42, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So what? Russia has more inhabitants than Poland, Ukraine and Belarus together. This is not the matter, important is how English-language literature calls him predominantly (see above). This is an English-language Wikipedia. --Voyevoda (talk) 07:51, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed it is, and Paul Magosci, a major anglophone historian calls him FedorovICH.--Galassi (talk) 13:36, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Magocsi is only ONE OF the anglophone historians. There is no justification to put him infront of all others (See Google Book results) without a scientific source that explicitely adviced to do so. Note that your gibberish and selective sympathies are not enough.
BTW, is your newest disgrace and embarassement concerning "Moschus" still not enogh for you? --Voyevoda (talk) 14:17, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Howeve, Fedorovych calls himself and signed his books Fedorovych. Nowhere have I seen him sign his works Fyodorov. Bandurist (talk) 15:35, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a question of how he called himself. The real names of most ancient and medieval people differ in spelling or pronunciation from variants used in modern languages. As always, we should use the variant prevalent in the modern literature on the subject, in this case the English language sources. GreyHood Talk 15:49, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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September 2015[edit]

I was asked to review the situation around this article on September 2015. As a result, I've restored the article to its July 2015 state and advised both parties to start a conversation here so their differences can be resolved in a civil manner. The applicable comments are at User talk:Lute88#Fyodorov and User talk:Ezhiki#Ivan Fyodorov (printer).—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); September 25, 2015; 13:27 (UTC)

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