Talk:Staffordshire Bull Terrier

Temperament?

What happened to the Temperament section? 213.17.118.30 (talk) 00:00, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

There hasn't been one for years. But this is covered in sections with other names. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:49, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Fatal attacks

Atsme regarding this [1] removed false information that is not helpful or in the cited source, are you sure that it's false that Staffordshires have killed people? [2] Geogene (talk) 20:33, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I checked the source, and it's in there, so I restored it. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:41, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Really? Add the page # because I couldn't find it, and it is not a RS. So please add the page # where it clearly states that, and to what sources corroborated it. Thank you. Atsme 💬 📧 21:39, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

It's BBC News. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:10, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Hazards of ownership

I would also like to draw attention to this paper [3], which says, Breeds such as Pit Bull terrier [35] and Staffordshire Bull terrier [36] are described in Breed Standards as “excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children” or “Highly intelligent and affectionate especially with children” despite their history as fighting dogs, their weight and strength. Their specific style of biting, “hold and tear”, can cause fatal injuries in minutes [7], and the biting combined with violent shaking exacerbates the injuries (Burns, Kusanale, & Brennan, 2011). Additionally, bull breeds are known to be aggressive to other dogs, which indirectly increases the risk of injuries to humans who may try to protect their own dogs from the attacking dog [37]. Geogene (talk) 20:40, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

It's an anyalysis that dates back to fatal dog attacks in Europe 1995–2016. Staffords are mentioned once, not because they attacked, but because whoever wrote the paper happened to mention them and provided information that dates back to 2011, over a decade ago, that has long since been debunked. Who still believes chicken soup cures the common cold?

Breeds such as Pit Bull terrier [35] and Staffordshire Bull terrier [36] are described in Breed Standards as “excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children” or “Highly intelligent and affectionate especially with children” despite their history as fighting dogs, their weight and strength. Their specific style of biting, “hold and tear”, can cause fatal injuries in minutes [7], and the biting combined with violent shaking exacerbates the injuries (Burns, Kusanale, & Brennan, 2011). Additionally, bull breeds are known to be aggressive to other dogs, which indirectly increases the risk of injuries to humans who may try to protect their own dogs from the attacking dog [37].

That article provides -0- relevant information. It does state: This figure should be interpreted with caution, as FCI focuses on purebred dogs, which are a very small minority, and only provide crude estimates of total dog numbers. Hello? MINORITY. This article is about a purebred dog that is verifiable by two of the world's leading official dog registries; i.e., AKC and KC. All you are doing is further validating my position, which happens to be expert level in this topic area, not that it means anything to some WP editors - it's ok with me, I don't care - but it's funny that expert opinions only matter when one is seeking an expert opinion, but when those opinions do not agree with their POV, they don't count, do they? And your point for even mentioning this article? Seriously...cars are far more dangerous, and almost everyone of age has one. Better yet, let's go to the scary 18-wheelers - they are the "pit bulls" of the trucking industry. Compare the injury/death statistics and see how often those fatalities are mentioned in our articles about commercial trucking/trucks - you know, the deadly 18-wheelers. Let's create a list about 18-wheeler fatalities. You want to talk about dangerous to human life? There are about 471+/- million dogs in the world vs 278+/- commercial vehicles. Compare the death rates. In 2016, dogs killed 45 Europeans - and that is ALL OF EUROPE and ALL DOGS, not just Staffords - which translates to an incidence of 0.009 per 100,000 inhabitants. Dogs are animals, but trainable, considered domestic. So who is to blame for these fatalities with 18-wheelers? Is it the truck driver, the truck, the vehicle they hit? In the case of dogs, is it the dog, the dog owner, the person who was bitten? Let's look at the stats for 18-wheelers...in Texas alone in 2017 (which regularly has the highest number of fatal truck accidents) 556 fatalities were reported - that's a single state, not all of the US. California was second with 320, then Florida with 275. These stats are sourced to a law firm that appear to be the experts in this area. Corroborate the numbers - do the math. If you are truly concerned about human life to the point that you want to create fear in our readers who read this article thinking that these dogs are vicious, you are targeting the wrong topic area, and have totally missed the notability proportions for inclusion of such material. No pun intended, but you and the IP are barking up the wrong tree if you are looking for notable human deaths. At least with the vehicles, there are positive IDs as to the brand of vehicle/truck. With dogs, there is not. Think about it. Atsme 💬 📧 22:30, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

We're not talking about 18 wheelers, we're talking about Staffordshire Bull Terriers. Geogene (talk) 22:34, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I read the paper, and it's a reliable source, but it's largely about variables other than the breed of the dog. There is one section that addresses the breed, and both of you have quoted in full the paragraph that is relevant to this page, as opposed to dogs in general. And the quoted paragraph treats it as "on the one hand, on the other hand", rather than an all-out warning against certain breeds. We can probably put something on the page from this, but it should not go beyond what the source says. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:40, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

In fact, the paragraph just before the paragraph about the terriers says in part: Important information includes who bred and raised the dog in question, if there were more litters from same parental material, the criteria the breeders used when selecting the breeding stock and to whom is the breeder sells the puppies. That's the authors making it clear that they regard such things as raising, training, and ownership, as distinguished from genetics, as being important in determining breed behavior. So they attribute some of it to the hold-and-tear genetics, but they also attribute some of it to human treatment. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:46, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

It seems like the authors of that paper might have a problem with this article stating things like, The Stafford is considered a family pet and companion dog, and is among the breeds recommended by the KC for families.[7][41] Geogene (talk) 23:02, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

As you quoted them, the authors quote the Breed Standards as saying favorable things about them as good companions for families and children. Where the sentence pivots via "despite their history as...", I'm trying to evaluate what the authors intend, without trying to read something into it that isn't there. Are they saying that they are refuting what the Breed Standards say, or are they presenting two sides of the issue? I'm honestly not sure. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:08, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

It's marketing speech. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:18, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I take your point about the potential for marketing speech in the Breed Standards, but I don't feel that this applies to the choice of scientists in a peer-reviewed scientific journal to quote it.

I've been thinking about how to treat this source for this page. As I said earlier, I think it's a reliable source. I think it could be useful to summarize it on a page about dog ownership in general, as opposed to a page like this, about a single breed. The source includes a section about differences between breeds, much of which is about how people treat different breeds differently, with one paragraph that we have been discussing in detail here. The rest of the source is about things other than breed traits, focusing mostly on the demographics of people who are more or less at risk of harm from domestic dogs. The paper abstract includes nothing about breeds. So it's not a source primarily about Staffies. If we cite the source for that one paragraph, we have to put in an awful lot of context. Otherwise, we would be misrepresenting the source in a POV way. I think that would require a couple of sentences, at least, and not just one sentence. And I think that runs up against WP:DUE. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:58, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Irish Bull Terrier IBT or Irish Staffordshire Bull Terrier

This breed came to pass in 1948 when the original SBT breed standard was changed by those in the show business via the English KC for smaller less athletic dogs. Sadly the old breed was never accepted and now allegedly classed as APBTs by the RSPCA even though they looked quite different and smaller. They are classified nowadays as the Irish Staffy as most are to be found on the emerald isle.

https://www.dogbreedinfo.com/irishstaffordshirebullterrierphotos.htm https://petkeen.com/dog-breeds/irish-staffordshire-bull-terrier/ 88.97.39.126 (talk) 14:47, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Neither of those are reliable sources. No kennel club seems to recognise the breed from my search. Traumnovelle (talk) 22:03, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Popularity and Registrations.

I can't speak to other countries but in New Zealand most mongrels/pit bull type dogs are registered as 'Staffordshire Bull Terrier' to avoid dangerous dog laws, the vast majority are not actually Staffies. So I'm wondering if this is true of other countries: if Staffordshire Bull Terrier is used to register banned/restricted dogs to get around the law. Traumnovelle (talk) 22:02, 17 February 2024 (UTC)