Talk:Bob Kerrey

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Untitled[edit]

In May 2001, Kerrey admitted to his role in the killing of civilians in the isolated peasant village of Thanh Phong, Vietnam on 25 February, 1969, while serving as a Navy SEAL in the Vietnam War, for which he got the Bronze Star. Can someone clarify- did he get his Bronze Star for this particular incident? The sentence is confusingly constructed. -FZ 16:03, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

He got the Bronze Star for that incident, which was granted due to a wrong account of the events that happened.--Wfzelle 09:40, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Lieberman[edit]

I'm not sure this is relevant enough to put in, but Kerrey just endorsed Joe Lieberman's independent bid in the Connecticut U.S. Senate race.

Source needed[edit]

Quotes listed in WP, particularly those that could be construed as controversial should have their source included. --Blainster 16:45, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Navy SEALs[edit]

Navy SEALs are not special forces. There is just one "special forces" in the US military, and that is the US Army Special Forces. Navy SEALs are referred to as "special operations forces". Special Forces is an official title of a unit, not a description. Its wide use as such is incorrect.

Special Forces (note caps) is a particular unit in the U.S. military; special forces (note lowercase) is a generic term used worldwide to designate units like Navy SEALS. To avoid confusion with Special Forces, the U.S. military officially uses the term special operations forces to describe SEALS etc., but as a reference work with a global audience, there's no reason why WP has to use this rather awkward terminology. Nareek 12:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Needs reorganization[edit]

The "Biography" section needs to be revamped. I suggest creating a separate "Political career" section and including the information on his stint in the Senate and as governor there. --38.100.43.50 19:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, that post was made by me...forgot to log in --Ball&Chain 19:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

70.108.88.230 (talk) 08:03, 11 February 2008 (UTC)This bio has significant problems IMO...the editors have not taken an objective standpoint and/or have very little understanding of politics in that it reads like a high school homework assignment. Just one example is the frequent refrain of Sen. Kerrey as 'liberal' which is a dead give away to be an opinion, which is not buttressed by actual signficant facts. Kerrey when he was in the Senate was generally considered moderate, sometimes even consservative leaning, but that's my opinion, you shouldn't necessarily cite that either without significant supportive facts (though these do exist)..The sources used are not ideal (Huffington post for one) and you fail to utilize better sources, I seem to recall Kerrey's written a few books. And Kerrey won the CONGRESSIONAL MEDAL OF HONOR in Vietnam, the first Member of Congress since Reconstruction to have received this award. This is a basic fact that is not appropriately related in the entry.[reply]

1993 budget vote[edit]

Kerrey became the focus of attention in 1993 when he became the key vote that would decide whether Clinton's first budget would pass or not. I can't remember what it was exactly, but it was reported that on the last day or the next-to-last day before the vote, Kerrey was still undecided, and spent the day making up his mind. It was reported that he went to the movies (what movie did he watch? This is the sort of thing people look to Wikipedia for). And liberals became very annoyed at him for a period. It was a significant moment in his career.Priceyeah (talk) 20:24, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

reverted 2 POV edits in "Massacre" section[edit]

I reverted 2 edits without submitting them here for discussion first, because I was unable to comment here from my phone and thought the page was full. I'm pretty new at this, so bear with me, ladies & gents. My explanation for the 1st revert: "POV: deleting interview and juxtaposing '...shot them.' and 'bronze star' implies a point of view, violating the spirit of the policy without accomplishing the goal of it." I believe including Kerrey's interview presents a more balanced POV than omitting it, and that, when omitted, the previous paragraph ending in "...and shot them." is juxtaposed with "Kerry was awarded the Bronze Star..." inferring lack of remorse, which doesn't seem to b the case. It was a terrible war as all wars are terrible, and it's best to remember that the survivors are often also casualties, even those physically unscathed.

The second reversion was shorter, "Regardless...," and might well be omitted, but we will actually never know what happened, and "the views of 2 do not a concensus make, esp. if one is recruited by the other, which seems entirely probable in this case..." Nuff said. What do others think? I'm very new to editing and to WK. Maybe I'm all wet. Ragityman (talk) 01:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Seems fairly reasonable. Kerrey himself claims that he thought they Vietcong that fired at him were adults and turned out to be kids. The communist propaganda from Hanoi claims he deliberately slaughtered old men and little kids. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 05:37, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Preamble should mention Thanh Phong raid. Also, reports from another SEAL conflict with Kerrey's and should be mentioned.[edit]

I was very surprised to discover that the summary of Bob Kerrey's life at the beginning of this Wikipedia article does not mention his part in the Thanh Phong raid. Of course, this is a controversial and emotional subject, but it should be alluded to here, not just in the main body. After all, the Thanh Phong raid section forms a significant part of this article, the description of the events is his own, and it is the main reason why Bob Kerrey is known outside the USA.

I propose adding the following to the end of the first paragraph.

Kerrey was commander of the notorious 1969 U.S. Navy Seal raid on Thanh Phong, Vietnam, during which at least 13 unarmed women and children were killed. [1]

I am unsure about the word notorious here. If anyone has a better suggestion, let me know. If people feel this is too strong, then perhaps the following is more agreeable.

Kerrey was commander of the notorious 1969 U.S. Navy Seal raid on Thanh Phong, Vietnam. [2]"

In the section on the Thanh Phong raid, it should be mentioned that another member of the SEAL team, Gerhard Klann, disputes Kerrey's description of the events and instead insists that the unit rounded up the civilians and killed them to aid their escape. I propose to add the following to the section on the Thanh Phong raid, in a new paragraph immediately preceding the paragraph introducing the War Remnants Museum's description.

Kerrey's description of the raid is disputed by Gerhard Klann, another member of the raid party, who was under Kerrey's command. Klann claims that the squad rounded up women and children from dwellings on the periphery of the hamlet and questioned them. The platoon were deep in enemy territory, and the commandos felt that if they let their captives go, enemy soldiers might be alerted to their position. After debating their options, Klann says it was finally decided to ″kill them and get out of there.″ According to Klann, the team then stood between 6 and 10 feet away and started shooting. Kerrey disputes Klann's account, stating in 1998 that ″it's not my recollection of how it happened.″ [3] Mike Ambrose, another member of the team ″wholeheartedly″ denied Klann's claim. [4] Despite their conflicting accounts of the event, both Kerrey and Klann remember finding the bodies of the civilians in a group. [5]

References

  1. ^ "One Awful Night in Thanh Phong". New York Times Magazine. 25 April 2001. p. 1. Retrieved 13 May 2014.
  2. ^ "One Awful Night in Thanh Phong". New York Times Magazine. 25 April 2001. p. 1. Retrieved 13 May 2014.
  3. ^ "One Awful Night in Thanh Phong". New York Times Magazine. 25 April 2001. p. 6. Retrieved 13 May 2014.
  4. ^ "One Awful Night in Thanh Phong". New York Times Magazine. 25 April 2001. p. 6. Retrieved 13 May 2014.
  5. ^ "One Awful Night in Thanh Phong". New York Times Magazine. 25 April 2001. p. 4. Retrieved 13 May 2014.

Notes[edit]

Sms97 (talk) 05:18, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Vietnamese Propaganda?[edit]

I'm curious if the display transcript at the War Remnants Museum regarding what happened at Thanh Phong should be included, or expanded upon. I feel that more corroborating evidence is needed, particularly with respect to the details of the massacre.

Having visited the War Remnants Museum myself, I wholeheartedly agree with the following quotation from the wikipedia page about the museum:

"According to one travel report, the exhibits are 'blatantly one-sided' with 'many exhibits in the museum contain[ing] a heavy dose of anti-American propaganda.' Another states that the museum is 'a no holds barred barrage of propaganda, overwrought with emotive language and typical propaganda buzzwords.'"

The display photo in question very strongly implies that Bob Kerrey ordered these atrocities (slitting the throats of the elderly and disemboweling children) or carried them out himself, and then admitted to it in 2001, while there is nothing in the rest of the wikipedia article to substantiate such statements. The NYT article discussing Thanh Phong isn't conclusive regarding who did/ordered what actions when (although Kerrey does repeatedly take responsibility for the actions of his unit as a whole), in large part because the people involved 1) wouldn't talk about it, 2) had widely divergent stories, 3) were recalling events 30 years in the past, and/or 4) likely used coping mechanisms which altered their recollection of events. The parts of the museum display most likely to elicit an intensely visceral response (disemboweling children, shooting pregnant women) are only referenced on the display. Given my experience at the museum, I would greatly prefer to see more nuance in the use of the display, or attribution from a more reputable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akrunner (talk • contribs) 23:07, 5 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've changed "in which three children were hiding before being killed" to "in which three children allegedly hid before being killed" in the photo caption, as more arm's-length phrasing. Apart from that, I don't think we need to change too much. Our phrasing and our use of a blockquote makes it fairly clear that this is the War Remnant Museum's version and not received WP truth. Before the bit about the museum, we've got two paragraphs that're largely given over to Kerrey's description of the event and his reaction thereto, plus a quote from Kerrey's Bronze Star citation; NPOV seems to demand some kind of account from the Vietnamese perspective. — Ammodramus (talk) 06:27, 6 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It is a BLP violation, and reminds me of the apocryphal story of the campaign advisor in the Deep South who urged that the opposition candidate be accused of having sex with a pig. When he was informed that there was no evidence to substantiate such a claim, the advisor objected to the rejection of the tactic, saying, "We just need to get him to deny it." The quote says Kerrey "confessed" to alleged crime, but there is no basis for that contention. It even says he was in the U.S. Army when he was in the Navy. Activist (talk) 18:24, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Vietnamese side of the story should be included. Kerrey is given space within the section to categorically deny all allegations made against him. The Vietnamese perspective should be allowed full expression, as well. Just because the Vietnamese narrative doesn't match up with Kerrey's does not make it propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:100E:BF1C:2646:69AD:BC7A:2957:6C6F (talk) 18:12, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not the first editor to do so here, but I've already pointed out that there were major inaccuracies in the account sourced to the War Remnants Museum. The account that has come from the Museum exhibit is not from a RSS, a "reliable secondary source." Certainly if Kerrey had "confessed" to the alleged crime, there would have been reporting on it that could be included in the article. There is none, and including it is a serious BLP violation. Not by any means to dismiss the horror of that war, the SPA IP edits are without value. The location of the IP editor's address is Bedminster, New Jersey, perhaps coincidentally, the location of the Summer White House. Just after winning his election to U.S. Senate in November 1988, he sang the famous anti-war ballad, "And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda," to his supporters, including five men who had served with him in Viet Nam. Quite coincidentally, it was played on an evening news program on Memorial Day, Monday, May 25, 2020. The song captures his feelings regarding the futility of, and his disgust for, war. [1] Activist (talk) 08:35, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Request for Comments[edit]

There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.

The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.

Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:04, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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