Talk:Piazza San Marco

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Piazza San Marco vs. St Mark's Square[edit]

Perhaps the officious person who moved Piazza di San Marco to St Mark's Square will move Rue de Rivoli to Rivoli Street and give us Elysian Fields, Paris. Wetman 18:21, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

  • The difference is that people say "St Mark's Square", and as such we use English. It still gives the Italian name and that redirects there. Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever used those other translations. Warofdreams 18:23, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"St Mark's Square" is technically sort-of-correct, but far from the most common usage in English - that would be "Piazza San Marco", which is supported by both Google (3x on English pages alone), and in my printed works on Italy and Venice. The "most familiar" rule should trump tortured Anglicizations. Stan 19:44, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

  • How did you get that figure of three times? My searches (including the most common misspelling) show they are roughly equal, with St Mark's Square slightly ahead (note: I used the English-only search for the Piazza San Marco search):
    • St-Mark's-Square 38,600
    • St-Marks-Square 9,880
    • Piazza-San-Marco 36,000
    • Piazza-di-San-Marco 1,180
  • Warofdreams 17:13, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I thought Google would return same results for apostrophe and non-apostrophe forms. I still think it's a horrible translation, but apparently nobody else does. :-) Stan 19:58, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Stan and Wetman, this should be under Piazza San Marco, which it is commonly known as in English. Wetman's points about Rivoli Street, Elysian Fields, Paris and Highbank, Venice are spot on.
People never use those terms. People frequently use the term St Mark's Square. Much better comparisons can be made with Wien, Praha, etc.
I agree entirely on the city case, I did mention several Italian cities below that are commonly and appropriately known by their English names. However streets within a city are almost always known by their local language names (hence Rue de Rivoli, Champs-Elysees, etc.) Blorg 13:22, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It's interesting that streets are almost always known by their local language names, but squares rarely are (e.g. Tiananmen Square, Red Square, Wenceslas Square, etc). Warofdreams 10:29, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The Google English results for "Piazza San Marco" (73k) and "St. Mark's Square" (65k) are more or less equal, and a strong case could be made for excluding misspellings (including the missing apostrophe) as inherently non-authoritative sources.
I think we should only anglicise where the thing is overwhelmingly known in English only by the anglicisation (e.g. the anglicisations of Venezia, Roma, Firenze, Milano, Napoli).
"On the English Wikipedia, use English, unless you're mentioning a name or abbreviation that has no known English translation." - from the contributing FAQ. Warofdreams 11:57, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That would be ridiculous if taken literally, leading to a situation akin to Wetman's Elysian Fields, Paris point above. Indeed, to continue your quote, 'unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form' - as I believe it is in this case. "St Mark's Square" to me sounds like a 19th century anachronism that goes against more common modern usage (cf. Leghorn). Blorg 13:22, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'm sorry to hear it sounds like that to you; it clearly doesn't to the 50% of websites which use it. Warofdreams 10:29, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
My constructive suggestion: move the page back to Piazza San Marco, which seems to be something of a consensus. Blorg 17:05, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I disagree. If it is moved, I'll leave it alone, but it seems to me that it would be going against agreed policies. Warofdreams 11:57, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Continuing from the Naming conventions that you quoted, "There is a trend in part of the modern news media and maps to use native names of places and people, even if there is a long-accepted English name [...] One should use judgment in such cases as to what would be the least surprising to a user finding the article." The article was originally at Piazza San Marco, with no users expressing 'surprise', while since it was moved, three seperate users have expressed 'surprise' at the new name on the talk page. Blorg 13:22, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There are even slightly more links in Wikipedia to Piazza San Marco than St Mark's Square (9 to 6 excluding redirects and User pages, etc.) We can keep St Mark's Square as a redirect. Blorg 17:39, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm with Blorg. --Mintie 01:48, 16 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Piazza San Marco is the term used in all of my English-language architecture and urbanism books (none of which date to before the 20th century). Dystopos 03:25, 16 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The point that we all missed here is that making a move to a well-established article without offering discussion to other editors is a crass blunder of taste. And that making a move without cleaning up the redirects is infantile and selfish. Good behavior is all but as important as good information. --Wetman 20:59, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • First, has anyone suggested such a thing or is this a response to something that happened in 2004? Second, in my opinion, good behavior is important only to the community, except as it impacts the information, which is important to a much larger group of readers. Wikipedia has guidelines and policies for both which we should take to heart. --Dystopos 00:42, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Amen to that. --Wetman 12:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Piazetta[edit]

Is Piazetta instead of the standard Italian Piazzetta a specifically Venetian spelling that is always used to described this piazzetta? Ruskin invariably called it the "Piazzetta" and he was speaking English and knew Venice. ...I've moved the Procuratie to Procuratie and fixed redirects from Procuratie Vecchie and Procuratie Nuove. It's the only sensible way, similar to Duomo. Wetman 17:02, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
That's fine with me, it seems a sensible move. I've put the extra "z" in Piazzetta. Warofdreams 18:12, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, the "extra" z indeed! I have restored the deleted information on Saint Theodore of Amasea (not widely known: it took me some hunting to identify him) and the name of the library's architect, Jacopo Sansovino. The columns: brought from Egypt and probably erected in the twelfth century or looted from the Sack of Constantinople in the Crusade? Someone who has reliable information might put this back. It's a shame to drop out Sansovino's name simply because one has never heard of him. Wetman 04:24, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sound of human voices?[edit]

Can somebody please explain the meaning of the following? "It is the only great urban space in a European city where the sound is of human voices talking." Is the intention to highlight the lack of vehicular traffic noise? --Mintie 01:48, 16 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • seems self-explanatory, if a bit overstated. Dystopos 03:25, 16 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Distracting blank spaces[edit]

Formatting that encases the framed table of contents in text, in just the way a framed map or image is enclosed within the text, is now available: {{TOCleft}} in the HTML does the job.

Blank space opposite the ToC, besides being unsightly and distracting, suggests that there is a major break in the continuity of the text, which may not be the case. Blanks in page layout are voids and they have meanings to the experienced reader. The space betweeen paragraphs marks a brief pause between separate blocks of thought. A deeper space, in a well-printed text, signifies a more complete shift in thought: note the spaces that separate sub-headings in Wikipedia articles.

A handful of thoughtless and aggressive Wikipedians revert the "TOCleft" format at will. A particularly aggressive de-formatter is User:Ed g2s

The reader may want to compare versions at the Page history. --Wetman 20:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Naming convention revisited[edit]

I'd second that, without repeating my starchy remarks above. Imagine an article on Leghorn. --Wetman 20:59, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I support that. the current name is ridiculous. I was halfway of renaming it when I saw the ancient discussion above. The Minister of War (Peace) 17:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rereading the above, which seems split between the English rendition, the Italian, and "I don't care" and with the recent show of support for a move, I'm putting this up on Wikipedia:Requested moves. This opens a new period for comment and all interested editors are encouraged to contribute. --Dystopos 21:36, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

St Mark's Square → Piazza San Marco – Rationale: The local name would be the "least surprising" per WP:NC. The bulk of previous discussion above tends toward support for a move. … Please discuss/vote at Talk:St Mark's Square — Dystopos 21:41, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
  • Support (see nomination) --Dystopos 21:54, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I have often heard of the Piazza, but never of the Square. The Minister of War (Peace) 21:56, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I still believe that "St Mark's Square" is the more common name in English, which would make it the appropriate article title. Warofdreams talk 10:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Funny, I have really honestly never heard of that name. The Minister of War (Peace) 10:56, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Change my vote to Neutral at present - Google Books and Google Scholar finally provide some good evidence for changing the article title. Warofdreams talk 15:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. It is usual for English-language guidebooks these days to use the real names of foreign places, not anglicised versions - the only exceptions are names such as Venice and Florence that are so well-established as to be effectively part of the English language. No reason Wikipedia should be old-fashioned and insist on using the English versions of everything. -- Necrothesp 15:48, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

Add any additional comments
  • The guideline above gives preference to Google Scholar and Google Books searches over Google web searches as quick comparisons of sources likely to carry authority. Here are my results: Google Scholar: "Piazza San Marco" → 593 results; "St Mark's Square" → 156 results. Google Books: "Piazza San Marco" → 3310 pages; "St Mark's Square" → 1259 pages. --Dystopos 01:45, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Piazza San Pietro[edit]

If any of you involved in the 2006 renaming/moving discussion are still around, please see my question at Talk:Saint_Peter's_Square.--Margareta (talk) 19:30, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does the Piazzetta belong here?[edit]

I am questioning this, because I have never thought of the Piazzetta as part of the Piazza and I would not think that the Venetians do. The very name Piazzette, the little Piazza, proclaims its difference. (I know Venice fairly well. I have been there about 30 times and look on myself as a Veneziophile). If Wikipedia is to contain separate articles on the principal places in Venice, I think it would be better that they should each have a separate article. An alternative would be to rename the article as Piazza San Marco and the Piazzetta, but that does not seem very satisfactory. There is plenty to say about each of them. I do not want to alter it without giving others a chance to express their opinions. Waysider1925 (talk) 06:42, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There does not seem to be any interest in this question. Further research has convinced me that they are separate, but on the other hand they are best described together. I have altered the article to describe them separately, while making it clear in the lead that the article deals with both. I have not altered the title. It seems very clumsy to name them both. Links to Piazzetta come here. I am doiing further work on this and shall be making considerable additions.

Waysider1925 (talk) 12:09, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bona parte[edit]

What about the little corsican turned great french emperor, who called St Mark's place "the most beautiful saloon on Earth"? There is no mention of that in the article! 82.131.210.163 (talk) 13:08, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reverting the last three alterations 28 October 2011[edit]

I have reverted the last three alterations for the following reasons:

Removal of spaces and headings under References: These were completely harmless and in my view desirable. Removing them does no good.
The removal of the preamble to the History section is pointless. It explains the division of the section and the next sentence is more meaningful if it is included. The removal of the dates seems inexplicable to me; I think them important and many readers will find them useful.
The alteration in the headings is also inexplicable. They were put in for a purpose. The sections are 'Descriptions' as opposed to History. One is a description of the Piazza, the other of the Piazzetta, which is exactly what the headings said.

Waysider1925 (talk) 11:08, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I still have to complete the history of the Piazza after 1797. I have not had time to do this earlier but am now working on it. Waysider1925 (talk) 11:19, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

C class[edit]

I have done a great deal of work on this article, which seems to me to be fairly complete, but it is rated as C class, implying that it is still missing important content or contains a lot of irrelevant material. I am not sure who takes responsibility for these assessments, but I would welcome more information as to what they think is missing or needs to be deleted. Waysider1925 (talk) 08:32, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Homosexual executions in the Piazzetta[edit]

I have removed the statement: In all likelihood more homosexuals died between the "Columns of Justice" than anywhere else in Europe before Hitler. Homosexuals were burned alive between the columns until 1446, when the rite was changed so that victims were to be decapitated before their bodies were consigned to the fire.

For one thing, it seems to devolve instantly to an argument affirming Godwin's Law. I have not read the source, but I honestly doubt that it is an affirmation that bears the statistical certainty of someone who verified the exact number of homosexuals that were executed. How am I to know that more "homosexuals" were killed here versus Seville, Paris, Bruges, London, etc, much less to compare them to holocaust events. In addition, I can not conclude, although it is hinted that those individuals were executed for homosexuality. It is likely incorrect, they were often convicted of sodomy, While Death in Venice (pun intended) may have been assigned to those involved in sodomy, at some time in the past; Venetian and Italian responses to sodomy were complex and varied along the ages. There were many capital offences in Medieval Italy; why single out sodomy in this section? Also I do not recall from my readings that any individuals were burned in Venice or in the Piazzetta. I think this addition will need more substantiation.Rococo1700 (talk) 21:56, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

File:Piazzetta San Marco Venice BLS.jpg to appear as POTD soon[edit]

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Piazzetta San Marco Venice BLS.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on July 10, 2018. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2018-07-10. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 04:06, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Piazzetta San Marco
A view of the Piazzetta San Marco, toward the Grand Canal of Venice, at dawn. The Doge's Palace is on the left, with the Biblioteca Marciana on the right. The two columns are dedicated to the patron saints of Venice: Mark and Theodore.Photograph: Benh Lieu Song
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