Talk:Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau

Untitled

Someone needs to add the names of the poets who made the two verse translations. --Doric Loon 15:45, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think someone who speaks Welsh should add a "pronunciation" version so boring old English speakers like me who enjoy learning random national anthems can more easily sing it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.118.29.203 (talk) 02:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I can't see the point of including 'translations' 1 and 3, they are not translations, but alternative English-language 'versions' set to the same tune. Translation 2 does at least give a 'flavour' of what the song is actually about for curious non-Welsh speakers.

I might have a stab at giving some idea of pronunciation. Even though I speak Welsh (badly) as a second language, I must confess that I still sing 'Moy hen-lad vur-naddoy urn an-oily mee', although I know that this will give people seizures up north :-) OwenD (08Sep2005)

Argh! Bloody hwntws! :) -- Arwel 16:31, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

LOL...'Glad bayrth-er kantoryon, en-woggyon o-vree'. 'Eye goo-rol ruffle-whirr...... (just squeal when you've had enough :-) Yackie-Daa! OwenD

Gives me blydi seizures too 'ychan, and I'm a hwntw myself ;).GarethRhys 16:16, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

use as an anthem

The claims of it's use as an anthem, and the dates, are very shaky. The only verification for this is a link to the Welsh tourist board, that says absolutely nothing about this!

It's well known that it was written as a poem in 1850s and a song a few decades later, and was a much loved song in Wales, but most countries didn't even have national anthems until the 1930s (it's a modern phenom) and smaller countries, it was actually post war.

I've seen evidence to say that this song was verified as an anthem for Wales in 1956. Nothing earlier.

Maybe an unofficial anthem - but, the sociological history of Europe really doesn't attribute countries like Wales or Scotland to having songs recognised as national anthems, until after the 1950s

Cjmooney9 (talk) 16:16, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Parodies

Does anyone know the parody "My hen laid an egg and I had it for tea"? That's the only line I know. -Nathan 02:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

correct lyrics?

Surely there is a mistake in the 3rd line of the Welsh lyrics? The line should be "Ei gwrol ryfelwyr", not, as printed, "Ein wyrol ..."? Try a Google search if in doubt! Hogyn Lleol 20:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Not really. "ei" refers to Wales (as feminine), so "Ei gwrol rhyfelwyr" is fine. AledJames (talk) 12:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

In other words, the mistake that Hogyn Lleol noticed almost two years ago has been corrected in the meantime. —Angr 12:40, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake! I misread it as being a suggestion that "ein wrol" should be there. My comprehension skills really are lacking these days. AledJames 20:55, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Tros / Dros ...?

Whilst I am aware of the grammatical reasons for mutating "tros" to "dros" in the line "Dros ryddid collasant eu gwaed", why do so many sources (many more, in fact) quote it as "tros"? What was originally written? How does one determine the "definitive" form? Hogyn Lleol 16:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Having looked at the original manuscript - see(http://news.bbc.co.uk/welsh/hi/newsid_3160000/newsid_3163400/3163495.stm) he in fact wrote "Dros rhyddid gollasant ..." - i.e "rhyddid" was not mutated (as it should be) and it seems to only have one "d" anyway, and "gollasant" was mutated when it shouldn't be. I know that some rules of mutation have changed over the years, but not these, I believe. May the debate rage on ....

Hogyn Lleol 16:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, further to my comment above, "Dros rhydid gollasant eu gwaed" is much clearer in this link - http://digidol.llgc.org.uk/METS/EJA00001/frames?div=82&subdiv=0&locale=en&mode=reference

Hogyn Lleol 16:46, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I have substituted "Tros" in observance of the Wikipedia convention of employing the most widely used form. While versions with "tros" and "dros" both exist -- and neither is, in that respect, incorrect -- "tros" is much more frequent and is also used in the Welsh Wikipedia, by BBC Cymru, etc. I agree that the oldest extant manuscript has "Dros", but there is no "rule" that says that the orthography of anthems in current use has to adhere in every respect to the spelling, punctuation, etc. first used. -- Picapica 13:02, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Picapica, whether we NOW say 'tros' or not, that doesn't change the anthem itself. You'll find many national anthems which use old language that changes, but that doesn't mean they stop using it. 'Dros' is what we sing, because it's what was written and adopted as the anthem. Bryn Terfel's version says 'dros' too if you listen to it. -- Dancraggs 15:15, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I see no point in getting into a reversion war with you, D. -- especially not on Dydd Gwyl Dewi -- but I would just point out that my argument, if you read it again, had nothing at all to do with what "we now say" (my italics); and even if it had I would be reluctant to allow Mr Terfel's particular pronunciation to determine Wikipedia policy! -- Picapica 20:15, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Point noted; but if you re-read MY argument, I stated that we as the public, and even professional singers (using Bryn Terfel as an example) sing 'dros', and therefore by definition it is the more frequented version. I've only once seen it written 'tros', and many times as 'dros'. Again, your argument for the revert to 'tros' is noted, but in addition we have comments above with people unsure of that reversion, and overall the general feeling seems to be better with 'dros'. (Gawd, all this over a letter. :-P)

I find it somehow reassuring that the author of the National Anthem had as much trouble with mutations as I do! -- Arwel (talk) 18:12, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to reopen this debate with a few questions/points: 1) Could a Welsh speaker please submit the grammatical reason that 'tros' would be mutated in this sentence? 2) The original manuscript contains errors in the lyrics and should not dictate the current spelling (it does not perfectly match the modern melody either - see the rhythm for 'annwyl i mi'). 3) It is still an issue that the lyrics on this page contradict most reliable sources. Unfortunately, a person asserting that it is sung or normally written one way is not a reliable source. If we need to consult and list authoritative sources then that is what should be done. Danlea (talk) 12:28, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Just for future reference, in answer to question 1: Adverbial phrases in Welsh take a soft mutation, and prepositions are often the first word in an adverbial phrase, so are mutated, hence tros becoming dros. The unmutated form had more currency in the past but now the mutated form is the more acceptable of the two (cf. trwy/drwy here) as the use of the mutation has progressed over time. A consequence of this is that some unmutated forms are never found in the modern language, e.g. gan (from can) and gyda (from cyd â). Llusiduonbach (talk) 14:40, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

So why has the version in the article got 'Tros', yes it's sometimes used in print but 'Dros' is at least as common and is what we actually sing. Too many WP editors trying to be clever. Stub Mandrel (talk) 16:42, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Having been studying this song in detail, I found that 'Tros' was still being shown on this page, where it says clearly at the top of the column that the original words were being shown, and the arguments are strong for the correctness of 'Dros'. So I've changed it back to 'Dros'. I've also changed 'mâd' to 'mad' to match the original. All the dictionaries I have available, including the big 4-volume one, have no entry for the version with a circumflex on the 'a'. The fact that the 'a' in 'mad' is pronounced long does not imply that a circumflex is needed: 'hen' is also pronounced long, for example. Short words like this only have a circumflex in general when there are two different words, one short and one long, such as 'môr' = 'sea' and 'mor' = 'so'/'as'. While I was tweaking these, I corrected the translation of the title in the first paragraph, adding 'The' before 'Old'. In Welsh, a phrase of the form 'noun possessive-pronoun noun' translates as 'the noun of possessive pronoun noun", just like 'noun y/'r/yr noun' translates to 'the noun of the noun' (e.g. 'Pobl y Cwm' = 'The People of the Valley').

Translations - literal & loose

I see that there has been debate on this before, some 6 months ago.

The 1st free translation is extremely free, as inevitably are attempts to rhyme a piece in another language. As has been said, it gives a flavour of the anthem, and can be sung to the same tune, but that's where any similarity ends.

The 2nd piece much more resembles the wording of the Welsh anthem, but is still NOT a literal translation, again being constricted somewhat by the need to rhyme.

I feel quite strongly that there IS a place for a LITERAL tranlation (and to be honest, I think that a literal translation should have priority over any loose rhyming translations - what's the point of those anyway? (anyone ever heard one sung?) The point of any translated version is surely to show non-Welsh speakers what the words actually mean. Only a literal translation can do this.

The text of this page still has a literal translation in it, but at some point in the past it has been disabled from appearing on the screen.

May I suggest that it be reinstated, showing clearly what is a literal translation, and what are less-literal rhyming versions (which are nevertheless still interesting in their own right).

Hogyn Lleol 16:21, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't realise that there was a literal translation hidden in HTML comments. Totally agree: we should use that as the first one instead of the rhymes-in-English version you find on tea towels. (On the BBC documentary on St David's Day, they used one of the rhyming translations too, which surprised me.) Telsa (talk) 09:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

First Performance

Under the section on the first performance of the anthem, it previously said Capel Tabor chapel. I have removed the second chapel, which seems pretty much erroneous. Surely a non-Welsh speaker can see that the Welsh word does the job well enough on its own?GarethRhys 16:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The cheating version for Anglophones

Nigel Jenkins' English phonetic comparative lyrics are amusing, but they can be tweaked to make them an even closer approximation to the Welsh words - if you can accept surrealism at the expense of some of the humour, but then the idea is not to smile anyway :

My hen laid a haddock, one hand oil a bee,
Glad bears and centurions are woggling free,
I could roll a bell here, going carpentry-mad,
Don's ruddy Goth lass, a Thai bride.
Glad, Glad, why don't you oil him, Glad?
Two more appear, a beer hops by,
O butter a hen, the bar high.

Cymru am byth! Jess Cully (talk) 16:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC) (25% Welsh)

I am an Englishman who has learnt Welsh as a second language. I think it is worth pointing out (despite the fact that it may diminish the humour) that the English Parody would sound absolutely nothing like the Welsh. It is probably also worth pointing out that the Poet appears to be a Welsh Speaker (from his wiki page), otherwise this comes across as being a rather bitter slight to the Welsh language by a non Welsh speaker. The suggestion that one might try to pull off this parody (whilst suppressing one's mirth) in a crowd of Welsh people during the anthem, should also perhaps come with the Caveat that this would be extremely rude, and would single you out for looks of bemused disgust. Imagine going to a British Legion event and singing:

"Sods paved our spacious green long live our bowling green"

How you'd be loved, what a wag! I don't think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.216.246.159 (talk) 12:36, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

To make fun of everything one doesn't understand or that's strange is just the usual English behaviour! No one can deny the English being extremely xenophpobic and of course uneducated! 92.223.57.11 (talk) 10:40, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Title

The title of the national anthem is Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau not Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau. If you don't believe me, take a look at Wicipedia here, the Welsh Asembly Government's 'Visit Wales' here, or even BBC Cymru Wales here. Yes, I know that sentences need a verb ('Mae'), but song titles don't. I'm reverting all the "Mae's" at the beginning of the titles on the article page (let me know if I miss any, or just go ahead and make the change). Cheers, Daicaregos (talk) 16:34, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Concur. FruitMonkey (talk) 16:46, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Bloody Great Fishes.......

no mention of the micky-take chorus version sung by English Rugby clubs to annoy the Welsh (and sung by the English at internationals)???

Whales, Whales, Bloody great fishes are Whales.
They swim in the sea.
We have them for tea.
Bloody great fishes are Whales.

Olddemdike (talk) 15:35, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

First national anthem sung at the start of a sporting event

The reference given (www.bbc.co.uk/wales) does not support the proposition that Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau was the first national anthem to be sung at the start of a sporting event, only that it was the first national anthem to be sung at the start of a rugby game. --Frans Fowler (talk) 01:38, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

It is permissable to look for a suitable reference to cite a statement, rather than changing the statement to fit the reference. Or the question could be posed here. Or a 'citation needed' template could be added to the statement. I have reverted to 'sporting event', and added a RS reference that supports the statement. Daicaregos (talk) 08:13, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Is it an irridentist song ?

Didn't want to put this in the main text since it's a bit speculative. But is the song really about Wales as we understand it now, or is it as much about the 'Hen Ogledd' what is now Yorkshire/ Northumbria and south Scotland. 'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau' does not equal 'Land of my fathers' as we tend to say in English, but the 'OLD land of my fathers'. Perhaps it refers not to the current land but the old lost lands? Especially when you consider the theme and feel, and that it was written in the 19th century when irridentist political and cultural movements were quite strong, it does make you wonder. Then you get 'Gwlad beirdd a chantorion enwogion o fri', you end up with something that could be translated into English as the "OLD land of my fathers, the land of the most famous bards and singers'. Well could you get bigger than Aneirin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneirin) whose attributed works include the Gododdin? The reference to the warriors who spilled their blood is perhaps a reference to Cattraeth? Okay the reference to fighting for freedom sounds like 19th Century Liberalism/ Whigism so a sort of linkage to (then) modern Wales to the past.

The looking at the final verse a reference is made to the revival of the Welsh language so is it a sort of a tale going full circle from the retreat of the Welsh Language to 19th Century optimism?

Still all a bit speculative, without sources but wanted to put this in the mix, because I doubt this is a particularly innovative idea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.153.120.136 (talk) 00:40, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Yr Hen Ogledd is, of course, an intrinsic part of Welsh history. And it is quite possible the words written by Evan James of Pontypridd reference all ancestral Welsh lands and their people. However, without a reliable source stating that theory it can't be added to the article. If you find one let us know. Good hunting. Daicaregos (talk) 08:38, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Cymru or Cymry?

I didn't know this song had 3 verses until just now, when I watched a version on Youtube with captions. In the third verse they had Cymry, which although I don't speak Welsh somehow looks right there. I found that an edit in September 2014 replaced Cymry with Cymru. Perhaps someone can check which is correct. 4shires (talk) 22:11, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up on this one. It should be "Cymry" (Welsh people), not "Cymru" (Wales). The line refers to "the language of the ...." so clearly it was wrong. I've changed it back. Hogyn Lleol (talk) 16:49, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Mae'r hen or mae hen...

It should be "Mae'r hen", not "Mae hen", shouldn't it? Since "Mae hen" is "Old land", whereas "Mae'r hen" is "The old land"?

Translating one language to another is notoriously difficult. You cannot translate one part of a sentence in isolation and expect its meaning to be unchanged. The whole sentence needs translation for context. In this case the whole line is Mae hen wlad fy nhadau yn annwyl i mi, which literally means My father's old country is dear to me. The usual translation given may be due it scanning better in English. Whatever the reason they are the song's original lyrics and as they are sung today. Cited references are all for Mae hen wlad fy nhadau yn annwyl i mi, which is what we go with. Daicaregos (talk) 13:48, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

"Mae" does not have an English equivalent. "Old land" translates to "hen wlad", not "mae hen", so your translation is wrong. "Mae'r" (mae yr) appears before vowels, and H isn't a vowel. ConCass (talk) 16:35, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Actually the reason why there is no 'r is because 'r means the; hen wlad fy nhadau is a genitive phrase (it shows belonging/ownership). In English we can express this as 1) The Old Land of My Fathers, or 2) My Fathers' Old Land. Welsh can only use option 1, X of Y. To translate an English genitive phrase into Welsh one should follow the following steps:

• Change the type of phrase if needed:
  

My Fathers' Old Land > The Old Land of My Fathers.

• Delete any uses of the word 'of':
  

The Old Land of My Fathers

• Delete the word 'the' when it appears at the beginning of the phrase:
  

The Old Land My Fathers

• Delete all other instances of 'the' except for the last one: (doesn't apply in this example)
  

Old Land My Fathers

• Translate word-for-word into Welsh:
  

Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau

This works for all examples:

• Change the type of phrase if needed:
  

The Hill's Top > The Top of the Hill.

• Delete any uses of the word 'of':
  

The Top of the Hill

• Delete the word 'the' when it appears at the beginning of the phrase:
  

The Top the Hill

• Delete all other instances of 'the' except for the last one: (doesn't apply in this example)
  

Top the Hill

• Translate word-for-word into Welsh:
  

Pen y Bryn

This is why the song is mae hen wlad... and not mae'r hen wlad...

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Copied from previous song?

This may sound sacrilegious (and certainly qualifies as the dreaded original research), but it seems possible that Evan James took some of his words/images from a song that was published forty years earlier, or was inspired by it.

Compare the English version (or the Cymraeg, if you can read it) with this one.

Comparison

Hen Wlad fy Nhadau

Hen Wlad y Mynyddoedd

The land of my fathers is dear to me, Old land where the minstrels are honoured and free; Its warring defenders so gallant and brave, For freedom their life's blood they gave. Home, home, true I am to home, While seas secure the land so pure, O may the old language endure. Old land of the mountains, the Eden of bards, Each gorge and each valley a loveliness guards; Through love of my country, charmed voices will be Its streams, and its rivers, to me. Though foemen have trampled my land 'neath their feet, The language of Cambria still knows no retreat; The muse is not vanquished by traitor's fell hand, Nor silenced the harp of my land.

Sweet land of the mountain, the valley, the wood, Of chiefs that for ages in honour have stood! Renown'd, too, for all thy dear minstrels so long: O Cambria! forget not the bard and his song. Still live in thy children the virtues of old, But think of the tale, in thy history told; The tyrant, who meant thee in chains to expire, First slaughtered thy minstrels, and silenc'd thy lyre!

This 'arrangement of a Welsh tune' was commissioned from Haydn in 1804. It is named 'Ffarwel Jeuengetid' (although perhaps this should be 'Ffarwel Jeuengctid' - a dictionary and various other Welsh books (1, 2, 3) appear to show this spelling - et and ct ligatures can be confusingly similar).

The lyrics were by William Smyth (historian), and apparently commissioned after the music.

The song was published in the UK in 1817, and can be seen on IMSLP. (There is a clearer modern image but it has typos in the tune name.) Even though the older words could almost fit the tune used nowadays, the original Haydn tune is quite different (it can be heard on YouTube).

The Welsh title to the Smyth/Haydn song starts with 'Hen Wlad' even though the English text begins without a reference to 'old'. This Welsh title was in use by at least 1947.

Sadly I've not managed to find any academic paper looking into this, so it can't be included in the main article. It is of course entirely possible that the similarities are coincidental - nowt new under the sun. But if any academic reading this wants to research the theory... ;-) Ozaru (talk) 15:58, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

References

Edit war

There is a clear edit war going on, with repeated reversions between those who want the wording to be 'the official national anthem' and those who want it to be 'an unofficial anthem' (or similar wording). It is complicated by the fact that other minor changes are being made at the same time.

Edit warring: what to do initially suggests that to cool things down, "all participants should cease warring and discuss the issue on the associated talk page" (i.e. here). It also suggests that "if edit warring user(s) appear unaware that edit warring is prohibited, they can be told about this policy by posting a {uw-ew} or {uw-3rr} template message on their user talk page", although from what I see there are a large number of different participants, some maybe unregistered or with inactive user talk pages.

Before requesting the page be protected, or "appropriate dispute resolution" is pursued, can I suggest that the guidance is followed, i.e. "work collaboratively"? It should be possible to produce NPOV wording that avoids this to-and-fro (for example, simply putting something like "an anthem which is claimed by some to be the official national anthem while others claim it is merely a song with no official standing" (and preferably giving valid references to back up both points of view)? But in any case, we should discuss it here rather than making yet more changes to the page itself before consensus is reached.

Ozaru (talk) 06:42, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

The first reference in the article [1] says Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau gradually became accepted as Wales’ national anthem – though to this day, it has no official status as such, so it seems the inclusion of "unofficial" is warranted. It was originally removed without comment here. clpo13_(talk) 19:55, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I have also now added some info on petitions requesting 'official status' which have been rejected as 'not currently possible'. Ozaru (talk) 06:59, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

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