Talk:Lancashire Cotton Famine

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I remember my history master telling me about this at school in Manchester in the 1960's, although it was not in the syllabus, and he was not a 'trust the people' enthusiast for democracy. His tale was that the meeting voted not to work on any slave-labour cotton. I can't immediately find any more verifiable account Rjccumbria 11:46, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have added a link to the Virtual Manchester website because it gives some of the text.

Other than that, their apparent POV that a free factory hand led a life little better than that of a slave was one usually found at the time coming from apologists for slavery, so should be approached with some caution. I appreciate that there were some who used similar arguments and probably had better intentions (Cobbett somewhere has a swipe at Wilberforce for being so obsessed in the welfare of Negroes as to show no interest in the destitution and want of the English farm labourers). But in this context there is an obvious rebuttal; if the 19th century millhands would accept hardship if it meant the end of slavery for others, it seems highly likely that they would not have accepted better working conditions for themselves if that came at the price of chattel slavery for themselves Rjccumbria

Time for Change[edit]

This article is too important to leave like this. It need restructuring. POVs removed and some authoritive text. I will have a go but there must be others better qualified than me who would do a better job. Any comment.--ClemRutter (talk) 10:51, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll do some work on it as I get time. There's a useful source here Richerman (talk) 13:05, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have done a few changes. There appear to be some significant facts to report. There are many contemporary sources that can be used eg Watt. Some of the politics is victors history. It has been a area of much research- with the contemporary sources extensively quoted. Modern writers such as Farnie have a broader view, writing up the events in the form of Economic History. It effects have been more widespread than I suspected. The Lancashire region gained a new model of ownership- strong local government- sanitation- superb public buildings- union structures- municipal parks, and all of these kick started the rest of the UK. Possibly this was the origin of the saying- 'What Manchester does today the rest of the world does tomorrow'. At the same time, the pressure was there to utilise new technology and move to self-acting looms, mules and ring frames. The emmigration must have had a effect on the development of woollen and worsted, and the industrialisation of Australia. The sources are available but it will need a lot of effort to read, and make the necessary referenced changes to sister articles. I don't believe that this article is complete- it needs a lot of work still. And finally a good copyedit to remove all my signature spellling mistakes and grammatic mistakes. --ClemRutter (talk) 08:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Politics of the Lancashire Working Class[edit]

I just found this on line: Politics of the Lancashire Working Class during the American Civil War by Graeme Kristofer Hefner, December 4, 2006 Looks like a really good resource. Richerman (talk) 11:36, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies if this seems like a rant. Thanks for the lead. I have seen the article before but didn't use it. The majority of references were stateside, and they seemed to be articles trying support the authors fad- ie selected to support to a predisposed point of view. But more importantly was the use of the London Times as a reliable source- my mother taught me in the 1950s that if its not published from Manchester- it cannot understand Manchester. The Bee-hive was also a London paper. The article attempts to discuss writings in the Manchester Guardian but does not cite it. Marx was unhappy with the Bee-hives political leanings. Remember The Times stance on Peterloo. If I were marking this essay, I would advise the author that it is a good start but he needs to sort out his references before he publishes. If he were to look at a Wikipedia GA he would see how it should be done. It needs a stronger opening, and a reference for the initial assertion would be useful, the conclusion is too abrupt. Maps would help- showing the juxtaposition of the towns mentioned, over an overlay of present LG boundarys with indication of the canal and rail links.. Right that wasn´t too bigotted was it?--ClemRutter (talk) 18:24, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No not at all. It could be useful for source references though. The London Times? I've only ever heard it called that by the Irish :-) Richerman (talk) 13:52, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:HeatonChapel WestonGr4453.JPG was the house of my great aunt- a fierce Manchester patriot- in her last years she would go into a newsagent and request "A paper please"- if she wasn't handed a Manchester Guardian, she would be enraged, and berate the assistant for his error throwing the offending article in general direction of 'from whence it came', explaining that there was only one paper. When she visited us, there was a quick sweep of the living room to remove any 'rag' that might offend her. --ClemRutter (talk) 18:30, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Another nice resource is Edwin Waugh's contributions to the Manchester Examiner 1862. The whole site is a very pleasant read. Edwin Waugh is known for his dialect works. And there's another article that needs attention! --ClemRutter (talk) 18:30, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like your Gran was a feisty old bird. And yes, I know a little about Edwin Waugh as he was buried on Kersal Moor - an article I created and took to GA - with more than a little help from my friends, of course. I spent quite a bit of time on the Gerald Massey site finding bits to add to the article - as you say, a pleasant read. Oddly enough it seems his name was pronounced "woff". I've still got to find his grave in St. Paul's churchyard to take a picture for his article - I would like to improve that one too. I see you live in Rochester now, my son went to Kent Institute of Art and Design there - it's a lovely town. Richerman (talk) 23:31, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Another Source[edit]

I just found this book written just after the cotton famine by one of the relief committee and digitised in google books online The facts of the Cotton Famine by John Watts - maybe this one will pass the Granny test :) Richerman (talk) 15:20, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Chesire and Derbyshire ? Not just Lancashire[edit]

Most of the places badly hit mentioned in this article were actually in Cheshire, some in Derbyshire. Stalybridge, Dukinfield and Ashton and I think Stockport were in Cheshire at the time. One sentence seemed to suggest that Cheshire (and Derbyshire) was 'in Lancashire' . This did not make sense , as Cheshire is/was a county in its own right. Perhaps the article should omit the 'Lancashire' part of the title ? I know the boundary changes are confusing but think it better to note the correct counties at that time — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peepgreen (talk • contribs) 12:47, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried to clarify the mills were in Lancashire and the surrounding area so it is not necessary to keep linking Cheshire and Derbyshire which should only be linked once in the article. J3Mrs (talk) 18:20, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is not clear that most of the towns badly affected mentioned were in Cheshire. Ashton, Hyde, Dukinfield were all in Cheshire . The section ' Stalybridge Riots' gives the impression that Stalybridge was in Lancashire . It is innacurate Peepgreen (talk) 19:27, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The area with cotton mills is defined in the opening sentence of the section headed Background. "The 1850s had been a period of unprecedented growth for the cotton industry in Lancashire, the High Peak of Derbyshire, and north east parts of Cheshire." It is not necessary to say where each town is located. Nowhere is it implied that Stalybridge is in Cheshire. Anyone can find out about Stalybridge by clicking the link.J3Mrs (talk) 19:47, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]


But the title is Lancashire Cotton Famine. Anyone reading it would be under the impression that all the places mentioned were in Lancashire . They were not. I understand you do not want Cheshire written all over the article but shoudnt it made be made clear that the worse affected areas were in that county . Even parts of Manchester used to be in Cheshire . Also the article does not mention the West Riding of Yorkshire . The West Riding also had cotton mills . This 'famine' did not just affect Lancashire . That is not made clear Also what does this mean ? It doesn't make sense and it gives the impression that Lancashire was the only region Quote from current article. '...of the Lancashire regions's extensive cotton mill workforce. '

The Stalybridge article tells you in the first line that it was historically in Cheshire. The link to Cheshire in this article was inaccurate and confusing - I've removed it Richerman (talk) 13:03, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

How can it be 'innacurate' if its true ? . The Lancashire Cotton Famine did not just affect 'the Lancashire region's' ( whatever that means ?) . The worse hit areas were in fact in Cheshire . This needs to be made clear somewhere on the page . Not everyone knows the area or history of what happened and just as importantly WHERE . Students, for example, reading this are misled. If you do not know the area , you would think it happened in Lancashire. I am not saying plaster the page with ' Cheshire ' but as it it is now it is innacurate as most of the mill towns mentioned were in Cheshire. Can't you see the point I am trying to make ? Peepgreen (talk) 16:25, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What about renaming the section Stalybridge Riots as Chesire Riots or Riots in Cheshire and leaving it at that . This is accurate , considering that every town named in the section was in Cheshire ? Does anyone agree ? Peepgreen (talk) 16:39, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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