Talk:Doujinshi

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Just wondering...[edit]

I'm just wondering how you can publish your own comics, like Doujinshi, if anyone knows please post a message.Hey Joe what you know? (talk) 23:17, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • This isn't the place for talking about that. But, I'll be nice anyway. If you're doing something that could be considered copyright infringement, publish online, or print and bind it yourself. If it's original, I would recommend MagCloud, or some other service, like CreateSpace, or Lulu. But, in all honesty, the Japanese print their own work. Marowmerowmer (talk) 08:16, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Definitions[edit]

Another thing you might want to add is the fact that Dojinshi doesn't stop at fan-created work of existing titles. Doujinshi is also comprised of "Original Work"....this brings you to large events outside of Comiket which is Comitia which solely places emphasis on original titles from independent artists/authors. In fact, Comiket ALSO has a big section of original works as well. I was just at the last two comikets as well as Comitia which is quartely so I've seen them. This article that is currently in Wikipedia is a bit misleading. I also second what the poster typed down below. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.6.89.169 (talk) 19:26, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Hello;

It's been a while I've been watching this page, and I've finally decided to say and do what I have to today.

As it's stated in the introduction of this article, Dojins arent restricted to comic books/mangas. Basically every medias are covered by doujin releases, such as games, music and videos. I am myself a Doujin Music amateur and feel having the general term Dojin linking to this Dojinshi entry, and the Dojin Soft one would be by far more logical. As a matter of fact, Doujinshi (同人誌) is a sub category of Doujin (同人). Doujin Music would be 同人音楽.

I hope it's ok for me to take such an step and that everyoen will understand and agree with my reasoning.

--Nikisiou 10:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So what are these copyright laws that force short runs of doujinshi? --coldacid 14:20, 2004 May 3 (UTC)

There is no clause in the (Japanese) copyright law that exempts small runs from copyright infringement. The reality would be more about keeping a low enough profile so that the rightful copyright owners turn their blind eyes.--Outis 11:51, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm preferring Doujinshi instead of Dojinshi for this article's name, for the same reason we prefer Tokyo to Tōkyō. Ashibaka ✎ 19:21, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

And what would that reason be? We don't call Tokyo 'Toukyou' either. I'm moving this over to Dojinshi as the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) recommends. Jpatokal 12:01, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That reason would be the same reason it's ecchi and not etchi: the one used in english more is ecchi. Note that in the manual of style you quoted it says "An English word or name with a Japanese origin should be used in its English form in the body of an article, even if that is pronounced or spelled differently from the properly romanized Japanese form: use Mount Fuji, Tokyo, jiu jitsu, shogi and not Fujisan, Tōkyō, jūjutsu, shōgi." And note that in english, and indeed western languages in general, the more commonly used is doujinshi as noted here As a matter of fact, when you type dojinshi into google, it gives you the same message as though you had spelled it wrong. -Aknorals 22:07, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Speaking of ecchi, doesn't the H in H-dōjinshi come from pronounciation of this word, not from the first letter in hentai when romanized? --Mukashi 11:10, 2005 May 6 (UTC)

No, what we are really trying to get at is dojinshi with a macron. That is a more academic spelling than "doujinshi", which is popularized by anime fans. "Dojinshi" with a macron is not possible as an article title, so we use "dojinshi". "Dojinshi" isn't a person, and there is no one body that governs dojinshi, and dojinshi doesn't appear in the dictionary, so academic spelling applies. WhisperToMe 17:14, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Wait, so the academic spelling is more important than the spelling that virtually everyone uses? Ashibaka (tock) 16:06, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
According to WhisperToMe, it is. ¬_¬ 29 June 2005 20:49 (UTC)
I'm moving it back just becuase of a Google check-- doujinshi is 10 times more popular. This is ridiculous. Ashibaka (tock) 16:07, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It's not a matter of academic or not-academic. There's nothing more "academic" about macrons, they're just harder to type. The "house style" for Japan-related wikipedia articles is to use the macron to indicate two-beat vowels, unless the word is already well-established in English. The "ou" is another way to do this. IMO, dojin/dojinshi is not really established in English outside of certain subcultures, so I think it's quite reasonable to render it with the macron, though this is something reasonable people can disagree on. adamrice 17:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you are all arguing about. There is one usually accepted means of romanization. Ecchi stays ecchi. Try typing it into a japanese input method on your computer (if you have it installed). Someone correct me if I am wrong but ecchi in hiragana is えっち. Which would mean ecchi is the correct romanization. Likewise (correct me if I am wrong again) doujinshi is どうじんし and you should use a one or two letter set for most romanization (except for the more complex ones like kya きゃ and others). Wikipedia should stick to the generally accepted means of romanization. Dōjinshi should be changed to the accurate Doujinshi and Dojin should be changed to the accurate Doujin. This is the generally used term and is also correct romanization so there are no compromises. I do not see why people are having a problem with this. Ergzay 05:23, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

((I'm new to wikipedia, so if I make any mistake don't be harsh, but do tell me, please.))Ecchi cannot be spelled in Hiragana. It IS the Japanese's pronunciation of the letter 'H' so it HAS to be written in katakana. The double 'cc' are used to stress the word. In spanish if 'rí' in María is stressed, when writting in katakana you usually put a hyphen ( - ) to stress the vowel. If you romanize it, then you will have to put a double vowel or a double consonant depends on what's being stressed. The same with 'ecchi'. Now Doujinshi is the most popular. The way I found this article was by writting Doujinshi in Google, not Dojinshi. If I am wrong, please do tell me and I'll ask my japanese teacher. ^^Sakura Miyamoto 03:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I just did some revising to the article and I also have a few statistics from doing google searches.
Dōjinshi: 466,000 hits
Dojinshi: 219,000 hits
Doujinshi: 2,420,000 hits
I think this makes it pretty obvious which name we should use for the page. Ergzay 05:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ergzay: There is not just one "generally accepted" means of romanization, there are several, and Wikipedia has adopted one of them, which happens to use macrons for long vowels. There's a whole Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) page discussing this. And according to that manual of style, エッチ (not えっち) should be romanized "etchi" adamrice 17:29, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What I meant by "generally accepted" is the means by which most of the fan community romanizes (and the only place ecchi is usually used). The っ or ッ symbols tend to be annoying to romanize but I think the generally used method of doubling the consonant is a good way of doing that. Thank you for correcting me in the fact its written in katakana and not hiragana. The Modified Hepburn that Wikipedia uses I consider to be incorrect. Macrons are not needed. Romanization should convey the original writing method as close as possible. Using a macron erases part of the spelling. (I stated this on the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) talk page.) Now wether I agree personally with that method or not is not the issue here. The issue here is that a LARGE majority of fans (the ones who make doujinshi namely) romanize it doujinshi and not with a macron or just dojinshi. As the above wikipedia article page that you linked says "Article titles should use macrons except in cases where the macronless spelling is in common usage in English-speaking countries (e.g., Tokyo, Osaka, Sumo and Shinto, instead of Tōkyō, Ōsaka, Sumō and Shintō)." The common usage is Doujinshi which is what the article should be named. Ergzay 05:09, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, a "large majority of fans" may prefer "doujinshi" to other spellings, but the question here is, do you want this article to serve the interests of fans or of general readers? Doujinshi (however you spell it) is not well-established among English speakers at large, only among the sub-subculture of fandom interested in Japanese anime and manga (I didn't know the word at all, and I am a Japanese translator by trade and a science-fiction fan, so for that word to escape my notice suggests to me that it is, in fact, pretty specialized). If you want the article to serve the interests of the general reader, it makes more sense to spell this "dōjinshi" in general, with a redirect for "doujinshi" and a caveat "usually romanized as 'doujinshi' among fans." Do you want to set aside the manual of style for Japan articles because you consider it "incorrect" or do you want to maintain consistency to avoid confusing the wider audience? The "ou" for "long o" is potentially confusing to someone who doesn't know Japanese: consider the words through, though, trough, rough, trout. Which "ou" pronunciation should one use as the model for the ou in "doujinshi"? I'm not entirely sold on the macron'd o myself, but it does give readers who don't know Japanese a better idea of what the sound is. adamrice 18:26, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
To serve the interest of general readers, using the modified hepburn system would only serve to create even more confusion. Especially in the case of 'ecchi', the word is almost never romanized in japanese, and when it is, it is written as the letter "H", pronounced 'ecchi/etchi'. It is, though, along with the word 'hentai' popular in the west as a label for japanese drawn pornography. There is _no one_ that uses the word ecchi but those initiated. To create a 'new' romanization (although correct according to standards), is to cater for an audience that does not exist. It's something to think about, I think. (87.227.81.22 (talk) 01:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Japanese Exclusivity[edit]

Are Dōjinshi exclusively Japanese? The web-comic Megatokyo (for example) explicitly claims to being a 'Doujinshi' and many other web-comics drawn in Manga style also would appear to fit the description to an extent (a better example might be the Powerpuff Girls Doujinshi). — Leedar 14:35, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

With the sheer numbers of artists and the increase in the popularity of anime/manga, I cannot imagine Doujinshi being Exclusively Japanese. KyuuA4 19:03, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing exclusively Japanese about dojinshi (no need to capitalize), but the shi (誌) in dojinshi implies printed and bound pages. Megatokyo in its printed form is a commercial publication, so it's not accurate to call it dojinshi in format. As for what makes dojinshi a dojinshi, dojinshi is a publication (誌 shi) by people sharing a common interest (同人 dōjin). So a fanzine is a dojinshi. A fanfic anthology is a dojinshi. A literary anthology is also a dojinshi. Finally, a printed collection of comics and illustration by a single or multiple authors is a dojinshi. However, most printed matters that would be called dojinshi in Japan already have native names outside that country (eg, fanzine, APA). Also, many loanwords become very narrow in what they refer to in their adopted language, and this is happening when most people who use dojinshi in English conversation likely don't realize that the Japanese dōjinshi refer to more than just manga. Outis 30 Dec 2004
Perhaps this article is in need of correction if you are sure of that definition. — Leedar 08:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You bet. --Outis 12:03, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"The shi (誌) in dojinshi implies printed and bound pages"? Nonsense. Let's look at a dojin circle and see how they use the word, shall we? Quarter Iceshop will do. Okay, it says here Quarter Iceshopの発行している同人誌について: 当サークルの本の内容は基本的に本Webサイト上で全て公開しております。無理に購入して頂かなくともネット環境さえあればその全内容が閲覧可能となりますのでご安心下さい。 Sure sounds to me like they're using "dojinshi" to describe a comic that's primarily distributed online...
I don't know how good your Japanese is, but the above quote and the actual website says, "The content of the dojinshi is also available online." Is your lack of access to printed dojinshi clouding your understanding? A dojinshi is a publication, and publications are still paper-based. Come back in ten years to claim otherwise.--Outis 08:23, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sadly, for online material - we have the term "webcomic". KyuuA4 19:03, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Doujinshi," "doujin"[edit]

I think it's worth noting that in the English-speaking world "doujinshi" (or "doujin") is quite often a euphemism for hentai featuring characters from popular anime (Try searching "doujin" on Google for example). —Casey J. Morris July 7, 2005 06:42 (UTC)

It's the same in Japanese. Ashibaka (tock) 19:55, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Spam[edit]

There are 7 external links that all point to the same website. After looking at the history it would seem that whoever put those links there keeps putting them back after other someone has removed them. Can the spam be kept off of the article? —Isuldor 09:15, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested semi-protect for the page. I also suggest that the in-line spam be removed as well.--み使い Mitsukai 13:33, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I still question the validity of the external links, all four read like advertisements and aren't relevant to someone looking for information on dojinshi. 71.224.112.22 (talk) 03:58, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dojinshi/Dojin merger[edit]

  • Oppose. Dojin is more than a mere abbreviation for dojinshi. There's also Dojin soft, Dojin Music, List of dojin works, List of H dōjinshi authors and H dōjinshi to consider as well. All are forks of the original dojin article and if anything, Dojinshi should be merged there, not the other way around. However, since both are reasonably large, they should be kept seperate.--み使い Mitsukai 18:38, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Could you please fix the definition(s) in dojin/dojinshi, then? The current defs are almost verbatim copies of each other, with little indication how they're different. --moof 08:35, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I oppose for the same reasons as Mitsukai. As stated doujinshi is just a sub type under doujin as a whole. Doujin includes fan art, fan manga (doujinshi), and fan made other things all which fall under doujin but not all under doujinshi. Ergzay 05:21, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. They are indeed two different topic, although Dojinshi should be mentioned at the top of the dojin page because it is commonly used as an abbreviation of Dojinshi.
  • Oppose, and removing tags that have been there more than six months. Chris 18:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Legality[edit]

What about legality of doujinshi (when they use characters from another company's anime or manga)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.82.84.67 (talk • contribs) .

Depends on the jurisdiction in which they are produced and/or distributed and the attitude to such fan created works of the intellectual property right(s) holder(s) in that jurisdiction or jurisdictions. Alex Law 08:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Free use image?[edit]

Any ideas on where to look into maybe finding someone willing to make their doujinshi free use? Or at least just the cover. Seems like someone out there wouldn't mind.--SeizureDog 08:00, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW I wouldn't mind actually drawing some goofy doujinshi cover, if it could somehow be allowed as a parody without bumping into several fair-use laws here. As soon as a picture depicting something already copyrighted shows up, tragedy ensues. Would you have to create something, freely license it, and then parody it? Gah. --Primetech 19:30, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality[edit]

Is it really neutral to state that "most" people in the west think of doujinshi as derivative or pornographic? According to what source? Personal experience? Bias against westerners? A source needs to be cited, or the neutrality of the "perception section needs to be assessed. Fade 00:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I updated it a little bit but there is still a lot that could be done. I also think it is incorrect to state that "A major part of dōjinshi, whether based on mainstream publications or original, contains sexually explicit material". Certainly there is no shortage of that sort of material but that statement makes it seem like that is the main point of creating dōjinshi, which I would say is not the case. The japanese wiki article on dōjinshi is very detailed and could be useful for anyone interested in fixing this article up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.33.12.93 (talk) 19:31, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology[edit]

Notice that dōjinshi and samizdat both mean (roughly translated) "self-publishing". The fact that the one actually mostly means "porn" in practice, and the other "political pamphlet" (even if in neither case exclusively) seems to me to reflect on what is "repressed" in each of the originating countries. :-) -- Tonymec 17:57, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Japanese or English?[edit]

Yeah, that makes sense. --AnY FOUR! 23:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]


are self-published Japanese or English works, usually manga or novels.[edit]

What? They only can be in English or Japanese? Better definition please. Like self-published manga with linkie to manga. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hitsuji Kinno (talk • contribs) 18:57, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ru:Dōjinshi[edit]

I've decided not to add this information here, because it is not sourced, but, accroding to ru:Додзинси, dōjinshi was initially literary magazines (not novels), and the term itself is a Japanese portmanteau of dojinzasshi (同人雑誌). It's also said that the term was initially related to junbungaku literature (純文学), "pure literature" (i.e. serious books, not pop-oriented). -- deerstop. 16:47, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Coverage[edit]

Yano Research Reports on Japan's 2009-10 Otaku Market

--KrebMarkt (talk) 19:51, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Doujin opera[edit]

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Talk:Higurashi_When_They_Cry&diff=prev&oldid=448145945 --Gwern (contribs) 02:27 3 September 2011 (GMT)

Source[edit]

Major Wired article from 2007. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:44, 7 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Touhou[edit]

Are you seriously trying to make people believe that Touhou doesn't have much adult dojinshi? Have you LOOKED around lately? There's a joke that goes "new Touhou doujins get created every 5 seconds". I'm sorry, I just don't buy that Touhou is an "exception" rather than the norm.--68.6.182.39 (talk) 21:22, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Random weirdness[edit]

I found this gem of an uncited statement:

Obviously this needs to be fixed. Can someone improve this statement? Marowmerowmer (talk) 08:16, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Free use image[edit]

Can we have a more appropriate doujinshi cover image for this page? Right now we've got one about peeking at the panties of underage school girls. That kind of doujinshi is a pretty small minority. There are lots of safe for work doujinshi, and lots of doujinshi with erotic content that have safe for work covers. I feel that the current cover is giving the wrong impression of what most doujinshi are like.Amanoshi (talk) 11:58, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have an alternative free use image? Granted that the current image isn't a desirable one, but since this topic can be adequately conveyed by a free use image, you cannot use a copyrighted image. Even dōjinshi falls under copyright, so you cannot use a random image unless it is free use. EDIT: I am a little concern that there may have been a bait and switch with the image, because an entirely different image was uploaded to Commons within the past few days. Because this new image has not been verified as free use I am tempted to remove it until it is reverified. —Farix (t | c) 12:34, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The only one I could find is a Western doujinshi of Naruto where the author has used a CC license: (https://imgur.com/a/jFECzpa) Does it still count as free use if it's a fanwork? Amanoshi (talk) 14:34, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that it is based on copyrighted characters will prevent it being used on Wikipedia as an illustration of the topic. —Farix (t | c) 15:36, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, wouldn't a photograph of a doujinshi market like Comiket be more appropriate? That's what the Japanese Wikipedia article uses. The picture we have now is of an uncommon style for doujinshi covers and also uses google translated Japanese. I don't feel like it's an authentic portrayal of what Japanese doujinshi covers are like, and is more likely to be some random person using Wikipedia for their school girl panties fetish.Amanoshi (talk) 17:27, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A photo of the Comiket crowd would be acceptable for the Comiket section, but not the section where the cover image is located. So that would not be a suitable replacement. —Farix (t | c) 20:57, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Can we bring this up again? Not only is the image inauthentic (not a real doujinshi, uses fake Japanese, and honestly doesn't particularly look like actual doujinshi) but it gives a wholly inappropriate first impression of what doujinshi actually is. Sure there are plenty of erotic works out there, but a lot (most?) of it is not so. This image gives the impression that doujinshi is inherently sexual, and at that, sexualizes minors. My vote is that if a suitable replacement cannot be found, then it should be removed entirely with little if any detriment to the quality of the article. CharonM72 (talk) 21:11, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed this again for reasons similar to the ones articulated by Charon. Since it is not an actual doujin cover, it does not effectively illustrate the statement about how doujin covers emulate manga covers. Without that, we're just including an upskirt picture of a child for the hell of it. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:03, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 8 September 2020[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Andrewa (talk) 09:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dōjinshi → Doujinshi – Since the word "同人誌/dōjinshi" is commonly romanized as "doujinshi", I believe this article should be renamed in courtesy towards WP:COMMONNAME and the "Determining common usage" section of WP:ROMAJI... 69.160.29.222 (talk) 04:40, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. While it's certainly unusual to enforce one particular romanization, the macron-less ou version is certainly the one I've always seen used in English. It's a borderline word in that it's a Japanese word but one with consistent usage in English, so a "common name" type argument is reasonable here. SnowFire (talk) 05:40, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Closing comment: I note two previous undiscussed moves
18:28, 23 June 2005 WhisperToMe talk contribs block  23 bytes +23  Doujinshi moved to Dojinshi 
21:06, 6 July 2005 DopefishJustin talk contribs block  23 bytes +23  Dojinshi moved to Dōjinshi: macrons in titles are possible now

Hopefully this will lead to stability. Andrewa (talk) 09:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 6 December 2020[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved articles. Categories should be listed at WP:Categories for discussion/Speedy (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 14:24, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]


– In September of this year, two discussions closed {1, 2} with the decision to move "Dōjin" to "Doujin" and "Dōjinshi" to "Doujinshi". As far as I can tell, there are now 5 pages on the English Wikipedia with "dōjin" in the title, so I wanted to start a discussion about them in the interest of consistency.

From what I can see, these last two moves were correct because they obey WP:ROMAJI, which says to use the most common romanization. Scholarly material on the subject of doujin culture is a little sparse, but my searches of Google Scholar ( "doujin", "dōjin", and "dojin") and Books ("doujin", "dōjin", and "dojin") seem to show a similar prevalence of "doujin" and "dōjin", though the sample size is very small. Here is the Ngram chart: [1].

A search of Anime News Network reporting (a common and widespread WP:ANIME RS) seems to show a prevalence of "doujin" (1,240 news hits) over "dōjin" (676 hits) and "dojin" (497 hits, though this captured many "dōjin" results as well) in raw numbers, as well in a variety of common uses. Searching specifically for the exact terms in this RM, though, the # of results are not sufficient to determine: {[2] [3] [4]} and {[5] [6] [7]}.

Note to closer: there are several categories and subcategories that would be need to renamed if this proposal passes (see Category:Dōjin). — Goszei (talk) 09:50, 6 December 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. BegbertBiggs (talk) 16:29, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support per nom. Though "neither encouraged nor discouraged" per WP:DIACRITICS, the ngram suggests that this is the proper title. It is also probably easier for the common English speaker to understand/pronounce phonetically. And of course, consistency with prior moves. -2pou (talk) 17:54, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Doujinshi convention: move discussion in progress[edit]

See Talk:Doujinshi convention#Requested move 20 October 2021. --Thibaut (talk) 04:11, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

John Opplinger's claims on western fans[edit]

Can we get rid of this bit? It's so obviously nonsense. Eldomtom2 (talk) 09:50, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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