Talk:Borscht

Borderline between soup and casserole types

The idea of preparing borscht per "Ingredients and Preparation" chapter have always reminded me of a dish that is not a soup. The chapter says borscht should be thick enough to make a spoon stand upright. What if borscht is - and always have been - supposed to be close to a modern casserole (in such a way)? The medieval borscht would be cooked in batches, and the modern casserole is also a dish popular for "batch cooking" life improvement tips. 2A00:1370:81A2:156:503B:F9E9:E308:7F1E (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

My wife's Ukrainian borscht, as well as every bowl of borscht I ate when I was living in the country, was thin and sometimes almost 70% beet broth rather than potatoes or meat. No self-respecting spoon could ever stand in such a bowl of soup. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 11:06, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

2A00:1370:81A2:156:B135:241A:AD84:CA66 (talk) 15:32, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

That's interesting, actually, how your experience parts ways entirely with the stories of Burlakoff. Because the same can be said about the dish I know and remember as "borscht" in Russia. Could have been a soup with mutual Soviet origin recorded under old, faux legacy recycled name.

2A00:1370:81A2:156:D16D:EF98:B6E3:2F97 (talk) 16:09, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

As mentioned 45 minutes ago, it is a generalization-like move to attach borscht and the history of borscht's metamorphosis to a whichever sole country. The user's commentary goes as following: The history part of this article explains how it was made throughout history in different versions among east slavs like ukrainians and russians. Not even the red beet variant is stated to be ukrainian in the history part, this is generalization. Ontop of that the sources given arent cited 2A00:1FA0:230:1551:0:57:1811:3A01 (talk) 20:12, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

The precursor i.e. the original soup made with sour common hogweed was described as a "concotion"; see "Precursors" paragraph. My opinion is: I agree with the claim borscht had been a casserole-like dish rather than a soup. I also agree with the hints the switch from casserole style to soup style happened somewhere outside of Ukrainian influence - be it either Français haute cuisine or Polish chefs or Russian chefs or Soviet rationalization of food cooking; any of those are outside of the idea modern borscht is a part of Ukrainian legacy 109.252.79.112 (talk) 13:24, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

This is nothing but WP:OR on your part. WP:RS holds sway and since they are heavily in favor of Ukraine as the origin of the beet-based soup known as "borsch(t)", that is the final word. UNESCO as a source for authority is definitive. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 14:37, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Touché 109.252.73.45 (talk) 18:49, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Some of those sources actually cite the soup first cooked in Borscht Belt, New York, USA. Therefore, borscht of the English-speaking people (per "this is ENGLISH Wikipedia) is actually a New York's original food - just like Caesar's salad is currently attributed to Tijuana, Mexico. 2A00:1FA0:443E:B92F:0:58:8852:5701 (talk) 09:44, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Apparently, today, a new consensus have been established by Rodw, a highly ranked editor. 2A00:1FA0:4110:9C43:17B5:3FCC:A405:58C5 (talk) 19:12, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

All I did was disambiguate the link to East Slavic to East Slavs without examining context or talk pages. The link to East Slavic next to "Place of origin" was added by User:I like Finnland with this edit.— Rod ^talk 19:39, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

A "new consensus" has not been established and you have clearly not read the history of this article in the archives where the issue has been discussed many times. The sources are fairly consistent that the origin of beet-based borscht, which the English word refers to, is in Ukraine. You have confused the existence of things in Europe that are called borsch-like words in other languages with the simple and clearly-demonstrated reality that the English term "borscht" refers to none of these. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:42, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

on the talk page I cant see any discussion about the origin of borscht, where is it? I like Finnland (talk) 20:11, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

See the button above labeled "Archives 1 2 3"? It's in there. As I recall it was sometime in the 2010s or perhaps a bit earlier. The earliest sources that definitively place beet-root borscht in Ukraine are from the 18th and 19th centuries. The modern sources are in the footnotes following the name in the infobox. These were reiterated when UNESCO declared Ukrainian borscht to be an endangered cultural item following putin's recent escalation of his 2014 invasion. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 23:53, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Awww. You're making me sad now. That's the instance of beetroot borscht, not borscht in general. That's just not making any sense. 2A00:1FA0:4110:9C43:17B5:3FCC:A405:58C5 (talk) 02:33, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

>See the button above labeled "Archives 1 2 3"? It's in there.

This is what makes me sad. 2A00:1FA0:4110:9C43:17B5:3FCC:A405:58C5 (talk) 02:46, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, the link between Barszcz ukrainsky and Borscht belt soup introduced to USA is not strong enough. Sauerkraut dishes are supposed to be associated with Germany, after all. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:32, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Aren't you are the one who lets own confusion dictate this issue? Borscht is umbrella term, which haven't been addressed. 2A00:1FA0:4110:9C43:17B5:3FCC:A405:58C5 (talk) 03:28, 20 February 2024 (UTC) STRIKED. I am sorry. We had had a discussion a year ago or so. I forgot about it until this afternoon. Beetroot borscht is, however, the popular borscht. To dispute such reasoning, one should make some other borscht(s) popular. Alternatively, one should make hogweed borscht or kvass borscht or both respected anong historians well enough to recognise the significance of such "also borscht". 2A00:1FA0:2CF:194E:0:2D:9ED7:4701 (talk) 17:09, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Just a quick heads-up.

This article combines 3 separate themes:

• barszcz ukrainsky and its Borscht Belt adventures;
• a whole family of traditional борщ Slavic dishes;
• a way to cook a modern beet soup that's neither exact barszcz ukrainsky nor belonging to the family of traditional борщ.

Hope this helps. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:23, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

(P.S.: Also, a Sauerkrautsuppe with tomatoes is not a borscht. But this article makes it look like it is one.) 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:23, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

You are quite right. As I recall from more than a decade ago, it started as a pretty straightforward look at Ukrainian beet-based borsch and its life as Jewish diaspora "borscht" in English-speaking countries (primarily the US). Then a certain group of editors objected to the "t" and started including anything that was souplike in the Slavic world that had a name that was etymologically related to the Proto-Slavic form without regard to its ingredients or historical relationship to the Ukrainian beet-based soup that became "borscht". Then everyone wanted to include grandma's version. One idea for cleaning up the mess is to 1) drop grandma's recipes, 2) make a separate article for Slavic soups in general, and 3) restrict this article to the Ukrainian beet-based soup that became "borscht" via the Yiddish-speaking Jewish diaspora to America. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 21:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I tried to think of this idea for 30 minutes and all I can say is comme si comme ça. Back to my actual job... 81.89.66.133 (talk) 06:04, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

This article is high-importance for Slavs already; Therefore it should be the other way round: move the mid-importance stuff in a separate entry. 2A00:1370:81A2:634C:86BE:60B2:E756:61DE (talk) 22:19, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

This explains the consensus. A decent ground to stand at, honestly. 109.252.71.81 (talk) 06:43, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Concerning this article, it is the English language article, so the primary focus should be on the beet-based varieties called "borscht" in English. The topic may well be of high interest to Slavs, but we have to always consider the primary audience of this version of Wikipedia to be English speakers of the countries where English is the primary language. A second article can focus on matters of importance to Slavs, namely the range of soups that are labeled with a modern cognate of the Proto-Slavic form *bar... (whatever the correct form is), but since most Slavs are not native speakers of English, that is of less importance to the English Wikipedia. Still very important to certain communities, but not as important to the particular community that the English Wikipedia is focused on. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 00:28, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I do believe you deserve to use the word "varieties" in all its varieties :) 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:F1B7:B1BF:19FC:3C5E (talk) 23:31, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

[UPDATE] Welcome back.

• Long story short: they do make several smaller articles in place of a big one in a similar situation.
• As for the details: Making a "Happened before" section. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
• Another idea for the sake of brainstorming: reduce to a disambiguation page: "may refer to: "Borscht (here)", "Borscht (there)", "Beet soup"; "see also: Cabbage soup, list of X dishes, list of Y dishes, etc." 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:02, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Happened before

The origin-related issue with a similar ground took place in the article on holishkes; as those, apparently, are also referred to as "golub".

• As for now, there are a separate entries for holishkes, for golabki and - to cover every other similar dish, such as "голубцы" - an entry for cabbage rolls in general 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Another one: blini vs blintz, which both happen to be aside from crepes - which, in turn, also happen to be separate from pancakes.

• Now, in Russian, there is a Runglish word панкейки (for pancakes-that-are-not-blini). 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Honorary mention of an overlap of applicable meanings for a name for an alcopop

Honorary mention of a, so-to-say, linguistic overlap... Even though they only drink it in Japan now; Zima (drink) from 1990's: the word has a basic meaning in Slavic languages all while it also has an interesting meaning in Hebrew.

• The former is somewhat relevant to the drink, which pretty much looks like a bottle of vodka-based drink (also, see 1998 ads with "A few degrees cooler" slogan)
• The latter is... also relevant, given it's a sweeter-than-beer alcoholic drink (and not just a kid-friendly fizzy pop)(also, see early Zima ads) 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

It's "beet" not "beetroot"

This is an American site and should reflect the language of the majority of users and not the tiny proportion of them from the UK. 24.247.31.147 (talk) 05:13, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I only use "beet" ;) --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:01, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Same :^) 81.89.66.133 (talk) 07:03, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

In fact, when you think about it... The "root" word implies a complex shape nowadays. It's not just "pluck out of ground" origin now. Otherwise, radishes would be radishroots, potatoes would be potaroots, watermelons would be woh-melroots, etc. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:10, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Different varieties of English exist, per WP:ENGVAR. This is not an American site. Valereee (talk) 17:16, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Beet is shorter, cuter and sweeter in sounding. Also, have you read the heads-up? 109.252.71.81 (talk) 23:56, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Except in the case of articles which are about clearly American or British (or whichever country) subjects, what we care about is the language variant used by the creator of the article. Beetroot, a BrEng term, was used in the original version, so beetroot is what we keep it at unless there's consensus to change. The fact I use beet, Taivo uses beet, or you use beet doesn't matter, nor that one word has fewer letters or is "cuter" or "sweeter sounding". This is a featured article, which means a LOT of very experienced people have worked on it and didn't object to beetroot.

Ping to KylieTastic, who created the article, Kpalion, who nominated it, and Ian Rose, who promoted it to FA. Valereee (talk) 12:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

It was not me but Montrealais who created it. This is English Wikipedia not American Wikipedia, so per WP:ENGVAR no to change. Also pretty sure it's not just the UK but also other non Americans that use beetroot such as Australians. KylieTastic (talk) 12:40, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh, sorry for the ping, KylieTastic, I must have misread something. Valereee (talk) 12:46, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Origin of beet borscht

Is there any evidence that the beet (red) version of borscht originated in Ukraine?

Beet versions of borscht can be found in Russian Empire’s cookbooks published in Moscow.

For example:https://search.rsl.ru/ru/record/01002989045 1816

or https://archive.org/details/druk-02/page/n9/mode/2up 1779

176.99.249.99 (talk) 13:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes. The sources are listed in the text. And even when the earliest sources state "russian empire" they localize the origin to the region of Ukraine. We use modern names for locations, so when it says that the origin was in the "lower Dnieper River Basin" (for example), that's Ukraine in Wikipedia. This has been discussed before so look it up in the archives of the Talk Page here. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 08:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Also, if you're going to use non-English sources, they don't count and we can ignore them unless you provide a translation into English here. You can't expect any of us to know russian. Some might, but most of us don't. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 08:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, its 1AM here. 2A00:1370:81A2:634C:86BE:60B2:E756:61DE (talk) 22:17, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, they do count. We prefer sources in English, but sources in other languages are fine too, especially if they're higher quality than any English sources we can find. But yes, we do need some way to verify, which typically means we need someone to translate. And IP, you might consider creating an account. It has many benefits both to you and to other editors. For us it means we know whether we're in conversation with one person or many, it means we can WP:PING you, leave messages on your talk page. For you it means you can develop a reputation -- for instance, for translating accurately. Valereee (talk) 16:17, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Apparently, the article was made for the borscht Yiddish speaking immigrants used make in Borscht Belt; not borschts in general. That's ridiculous, but it is what it is, the Slav soups are now described "variants" of the soup Yiddish-speaking Americans have brought to the agglomeration of New York. That's a bit of stretch, though. 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:1994:C636:2E70:1067 (talk) 00:01, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Excessive lines

From the mobile device, there are excessive blank lines at the end of some paragraphs; for example, this one: Borscht#Novel ingredients: beets, tomatoes and potatoes. JacktheBrown (talk) 00:04, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks2A00:1370:81A2:4024:72DE:1715:61B6:2595 (talk) 19:34, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Request to get rid of the "variations" word

It would be of great help to replace the "variation" word with something else. Borscht qua borscht is one thing, any similar but different dish is be another. 109.252.71.81 (talk) 06:59, 5 May 2024 (UTC) Reason: It's illogical to label soups with a common hogveed ancestor to be "variations" of one particular type 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:191E:CA94:9900:F075 (talk) 06:36, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Please do not discriminate English users for not being "native speakers" because reasons

>but since most Slavs are not native speakers of English

I disagree; but support the idea to split the article into "Y.-sp. Am." soup" and "Slav" soups" to avoid further mishaps and disagreements. The "native speaker" status may mean... well, something; but, due to globalization, a lot of Slavs use English to communicate *with other Slavs*. Why? Short answer: False friends such as čerstve pecivo (the pic in the article). 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:17D:97E4:7818:6F0D (talk) 00:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

P.S. Two more points.

• Daily reminder Wikipedia and smarty cellies don't go well.
• Cockney accent and such also counts as "native English". Or what about some British slangy speak in general?

Just because a lot of Poles and Serbs and Ukrainians use English as a SECOND language (not, by definition, "native") is not relevant. "Borscht" is the normal English word for the beet-based soup in native-speaking regions of the globe, especially the Americas. When I lived in Ukraine (and now that I'm back in the US with a Ukrainian wife), I used "borsch" even when speaking English, because that's the word that the native Ukrainian and Russian speakers recognized and used in their English. But the "native" English word has that lovely "t" at the end. However we agree on one thing (and I suspect even without polling that the majority of editors here will agree with us), that this article needs to be split into an article on the beet-based soup that is commonly known "avec t" in English as "borscht" and an article on other Slavic (and Slavic-adjacent) eastern European soups that are not beet-based, but are called by a name "sans t" in the local language. That will also solve the pesky "variants" problem. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 01:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm having a hard time following since this is being discussed in more than one section. @TaivoLinguist, is your point that there are two distinct dishes with similar names, and that they could both be supported from reliable sources as notable dishes? Valereee (talk) 12:09, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee. In Proto-Slavic there was a word *bar... (something or other) that referred to "sour soup". That Proto-Slavic form then naturally changed over time into a word in most (if not all) modern Slavic languages that still refers to some sort of sour soup in that culture. Those various sour soups in the Slavic world should have their own article. In Ukraine, that particular sour soup is called "borsch" (in the Ukrainian language) and is based on beets. It is that particular soup (and not any of the other Slavic sour soups) that was brought to the US by Yiddish-speaking immigrants in the 19th and early 20th centuries and was called, in Yiddish, "borscht". This particular sour soup, called "borscht" in English and based on beets, is the subject of this particular article. Thus there are two articles that should exist in the English Wikipedia--this article about "borscht", the beet-based soup that most English speakers associate with the word, and a second article on Slavic sour soups in general whose names in the local language usually derive from the Proto-Slavic word for "sour soup" and that are not derived from beets and whose names are not, literally, "borscht" (with a t). --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 15:59, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

@TaivoLinguist, I'd love to see us create Slavic sour soups! Can we simply spin off from this article, are the sources good enough? I think we'd need to see three sources using the term 'Slavic sour soups' (or whatever) and giving sigcov. Valereee (talk) 16:06, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Like maybe just spin off the entire Namesakes without beets section? Valereee (talk) 16:11, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

"Slavic sour soups" may accidentally grab kapustnica and some other non-borscht sour soups. 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:2D93:F9B0:7994:441 (talk) 20:22, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

That's not a problem. Those soups can be linked, don't have to be merged unless there's scant support for independent notability for a given one. Valereee (talk) 20:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Still, it sounds like a good idea to make this little spinoff. 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:2D93:F9B0:7994:441 (talk) 20:27, 14 May 2024 (UTC)