Talk:Austrian German

Untitled

Hi all,

Austro-Bavarian (the other link) would be the correct term:

Austro-Bavarian is a language spoken in Southern Bavaria, the major part of Austria (w/o Vorarlberg, where Alemannic is spoken), and South Tyrol (politically a part of Italy). Historically Austro-Bavarian is a "German" - better: Germanic -language, but not identical to the German Standard language. Austro-Bavarian has influenced the German Standard language (and unfortunately also vice versa).

There are 3 main dialect groups in Austro-Bavarian: Northern A/B (so-called "Upper-Palatinate dialect", Central A/B (along the main rivers Isar and Danube - e.g., Viennese and Munich area dialect), and Southern A/B (e.g., in Tyrol, Carinthia, and South Tyrol).

There exist Grammars, Vocabularies, and a translation of the Bible, but unfortunately there is no common standard for how to write the language. A/B is under strong pressure by (esp. German) mass-media, which to 99.9% promote Standard German and even try to suppress the Austro-Bavarian accent in Standard German.

Austro-Bavarian is a dialect not a variety. --Zoris Trömm (talk) 14:27, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

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i think this needs clean-up, i kept reading the same words over again, it was just two or three sentences that were continually repeated throughout

Illustration

The Achtung, Fußgeher! illustration seems outdated to me, since the term Fußgänger is in common Austrian usage. We talk of a Fußgängerzone (pedestrian area), we write of Fußgängerübergang (pedestrian crossing) in Austria's Street Traffic Order ... This illustration therefore is not presenting actual Austrian German language. --Johnny3031 (talk) 22:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Fußgeher and Fußgänger coexist peacefully. I wasn't aware, this word was a specific Austrian one. -- "In the perfect these would be ich bin gestanden and ich habe gestanden respectively." When it comes to "haben" or "sein" the perfect tenses are quite clear in german. If the verb is a transitive one, the perfect tense is built with "haben". So this example here has nothing to do with Austrian dialect. Gestehen: I confess something, so it is a transitive action. Stehen: I simply stand. Intransitive. Thus the difference between stehen and gestehen. 212.241.89.60 (talk) 20:08, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Not true. In Southern Germany, Switzerland, and Austria, "bin gestanden" is also used in the intransitive case. And (at least in Austria) this is NOT dialect, this is perfect standard language. Nahabedere (talk) 14:55, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Perfect standard language is still a dialect. ᛭ LokiClock (talk) 18:38, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Which is to say, everything is a dialect? Honest question. Irrogalp (talk) 07:10, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

The use of the term dialect is in this case unusual and even inappropriate. In the case of German two groups of varieties have to be named: One group is formed by the traditionally only spoken geographical variations, like Alemannic, Bavarian, Franconian etc. which are called dialects. The other group is formed by the three national varieties of Standard German, which are all based on the Chancellery language of Saxony from the 18th century. Austrian German is among Swiss High German (not to be confused with Swiss German, a group of Alemannic dialects) and the Standard German of Germany (a.k.a. Federal German High German) a standard variety, but not a dialect. --Liebeskind (talk) 07:46, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

There is no "national" variety of Standard German for the Federal Republic of Germany. Standard German varies between the different German states. So, the grammar of Bavarian standard German is much closer to Austrian German than to "Federal German". Moreover, many "Austrian" terms are in use in Bavaria instead of the "German" terms. Eastern German High German uses many terms of its own which are not in use elsewhere (such as "Broiler" or "Goldbroiler" for a grilled chicken). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.221.115.38 (talk) 19:09, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Grüß Gott!

The above greeting is not used only in the countryside (as mentioned earlier), but it's the standard de facto way of greeting people here in Austria. I deleted so the (citation needed) markup. CQuake (talk) 16:00, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

The above greeting is also used in vast parts of Germany (this whole Austrian German article is full of nonsense!).--IIIraute (talk) 01:53, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Little mistakes on Vocabulary section

"Also, the preterite (simple past) is very rarely used in Austria, especially in the spoken language, except for some modal verbs (ich war, ich wollte)."

I happen to see a couple of little mistakes in the above sentence:

• Preterite is not often used in German countries as toto in the spoken language; in fact it's pretty common to see the simple past in the written language for all verbs, but two: sein (ich war) and haben (ich hatte) - these two verbs will always be used in the simple past form rather then past perfect form.
• The second mistake is mentioning sein (ich war) as modal verb, when it is not.

Tschüss! CQuake (talk) 16:15, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

some final adjustments

-at "Österreichische Kanzleisprache" - there are no regional variations - this written text form is mainly governmental Based at Vienna - alls other Regions have to adjust to Vienna in case of such documents in language and forms. For myself I have to commit - in my Family are some Beamte - so I do know :) 91.113.6.148 (talk) 22:41, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Vocabulary

I removed some of the examples. "Feber" is an old form which is not common anymore. "Karotte" is the regular word also in German, while "Möhre" is a more specific, regional form. "Kiste" (crate) and "Schachtel" (box) are not the same things, both words exist in Standard German. Absurdistani (talk) 10:36, 15 March 2011 (UTC) "Feber" is widely used, it is not an old form. From which region are you talking about? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.3.214.196 (talk) 13:18, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Palatschinken

Just like Crêpe, they are not simply pancakes/Pfannkuchen. I'd say they differ in thickness and taste. Irrogalp (talk) 06:59, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Infobox, IETF language tag de-AT

I am trying to bring the discussion from User talk:Kwamikagami#"box inappropriate and false" – why? here, so other interested users might participate.

On computers and on the internet, the IETF language tag de-AT is used for Austrian (Standard) German. User:Kwamikagami has removed it from the article on the grounds that the code might also refer to the dialects of Austria. While that may be technically correct, it is rather unlikely. If someone wanted to use a code for the dialects, they would use bar-AT or gsw-AT. If they were using de-AT, everybody would think they were referring to the standard language.

I think it would be a pity if the Wikipedia article on Austrian German would fail to provide the code that is being used for Austrian German only because there is a (rather theoretical) room for ambiguity. I suggest re-adding the code along with a footnote: “Strictly speaking, the code de-AT might also refer to the dialects in Austria. However, being intended for computers and the internet, the code is normally used for Austrian Standard German. A less ambiguous way of referring to the dialects would be by using the codes bar-AT or gsw-AT.”

With regard to the speakers number that has been around since 2007 ([1]), it is true that a clarification request has been around for almost two years now ([2]), but that is hardly a reason for trashing the entire infobox. If keeping the clarification request is no longer reasonable, I suggest leaving the speakers figure empty until somebody cares to find a proper source. I object to “Native speakers None”. That makes it sound as if it were a dead language. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 21:19, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

I removed the IETF code because I didn't realized that is was supported by the info box. (It originally triggered a tracking error.)

If you cannot be sure that the code is correct, then we have an OR problem with IETF codes. How do we determine if an IETF code is correct? How do we resolve a challenge that a code is not correct?

"Native speakers: none" means just that: no native speakers. We use that wording for pidgins, artificial languages, and standards such as Modern Standard Arabic. It's certainly appropriate here.

Another problem is with the classification. I fixed the classification in Swiss Standard German based on our articles, and to resolve a contradiction with the text, but was reverted because that info is apparently wrong. Yet there was no attempt to correct the misinformation in our articles. Rather than bushing things under the carpet, we should actually take care of them. — kwami (talk) 21:35, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

There is certainly no doubt that de-AT applies to Austrian German, both by the definition of the standard and by its actual use. There is a slight possibility that some might apply the same code to Austrian dialects. To me, that is no reason to strike the code from Wikipedia. Instead, it is a reason to add a footnote. Would you really have no code at all for Austrian German than a code with a footnote?

"Native speakers: none" is certainly not appropriate here because there are Austrians who do not speak dialect, at least a few, and there are many who consider both the dialect and the standard to be their native languages. Have a look around: There are numerous Swiss Wikipedia users, for instance, who identify as doube native speakers, both of the dialect and of the standard (for instance myself). All these binary mutually exclusive restrictions do not really apply to languages. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 22:27, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

As to standard modern Arabic: 1. WP:OTHERSTUFF, 2. the situation is different. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 06:54, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

And thanks for reinstating the infobox. ☺ --mach 🙈🙉🙊 06:55, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Are there any sources for the (rather preposterous) claim that Austrian German has no native speakers?

@User:Kwamikagami: Please provide sources for your claim that Austrian German has no native speakers. Otherwise, that claim is WP:OR and must be removed from Wikipedia. Please note that WP:OTHERSTUFF does not count as a source in any way. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 19:01, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Based on your edit summaries, it appeared that you were removing the info because you thought our readers were too stupid to understand what 'no native speakers' means. And I thought it was you who'd said there were no native speakers, that these were basically just written standards. Perhaps that was the other editor working on this. (I'm not going to bother looking it up.) We can put in 'native speakers unknown' for now, and if you can provide a source with actual numbers, that would be helpful. — kwami (talk) 19:08, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. Though I consider the information “Native speakers (no estimate available)” to be very superfluous and also misleading (it does not say what kind of estimate is unavailable). I think it would be much more helpful if the information (really a non-information) were simply dropped. Aren’t there any policies that recommend dropping superfluous and potentially misleading non-information? I don’t know. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 19:26, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

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Capital ẞ

It says in the caption of the illustration: Capital ẞ is traditionally wrong in both countries and has to be replaced by SS when in all caps - as ß is a fusion of two different [sz-]cha­racters)

Since June 2017 there is a capital ẞ in German. Maybe this should be changed.

Remoulade

Nearly nobody in Germany uses "Sauce Tartar"; maybe those restaurants which translate their dishes to French - and let you PAY for the translation! Well, I am a German, and I never saw "Sauce Tartar" in usual restaurants or in any supermarket. --FK1954 (talk) 11:59, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

This is almost certainly a misattribution in the article which I have now corrected: I am Austrian, and in Austria nearly nobody uses "Remoulade" while you can see "Sauce Tartare" everywhere in restaurants and supermarkets. See e.g. https://www.felix.at/produkte/saucen/sauce-tartare or https://www.kuner.at/produkte/grillsaucen/tartare-sauce.html or https://www.radatz.at/rezepte/rezepte-kochideen/rezept-detail/sauce-tartare. Strictly speaking, Tartar sauce and Remoulade sauce seem to originally have had slightly different recipes, as the former should be made with boiled egg yolks, the latter with raw ones (i.e. mayonnaise). But today this distinction seems to have been lost (the three Austrian links above all prepare "Sauce Tartare" with mayonnaise, i.e. Remoulade style). --Areios (talk) 17:24, 30 October 2023 (UTC)