Talk:Nisse (folklore)

Edit

Why did someone edit the tomte picture into a "nisse" picture? The illustration of a nisse is just... Some strange "art". My tomte picture is a real illustration of what the people actually believed in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hom san (talk • contribs) 18:07, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

This is the English language wikipedia, and so we should use English language sources to decide which word to use.

1st) The books of Astrid Lindgren, a Swedish author, have been translated into English. The word used is "Tomten", never "Tomte" or "Nisse". I believe that most English speakers who know this concept will have come across it through these books.

2nd) I sometimes receive a catalog which sells "Tomten" dolls and such, again the terms Tomte and Nisse are not used.

3rd) Google gives more results for Tomten (about 18 million) than Tomte (about 7 million) and Nisse (about 8 million) combined.

4th, and perhaps most important) The word "Tomte" does not look like an English word and does not have an obvious pronunciation. Thus the word really can't catch on with the general public. Written as "Tomten" it has a single obvious pronunciation. This probably explains why the word is translated as "Tomten".

I do not want to go to all of the effort to change the name of this page, but as an English speaker I am sure that Tomten is the correct name for this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3135:4190:851C:9F54:C2:1D7 (talk) 01:19, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Tomten, Tomte

There are some Wikipedia articles which refer to "Tomten" and some "Tomte". Is this a problem? - dcljr 19:49, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"En tomte" is Swedish for a tomte. "Tomten" is Swedish for the tomte. --Lakefall 19:17, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I guess I would recommend the indefinite form "tomte", but if we have redirections, it shouldn't be a major problem.

I'm Swedish, and when I say Tomten I refer to Father Christmas (it literally means "The Tomte"). When I say tomte it's just any tomte in general. The difference between tomten and tomte is like the difference between God and a god. /Benzocaine (talk) 16:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

In wikipedia in general it seems Tomte is used everywhere. I find that odd when that is only a Swedish word and Nisse is much more common (used in Norway, Denmark and parts of Sweden). Should we rename the article, or are there too many Swedish contributors who oppose a less Swedish bias?

Strangely, Nisse seems more common on the Interwiki. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 16:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm Swedish myself, so I rather like the fact that "tomte" is used, but I wonder if "Scandinavian gnome" would not be more appropriate, similar to the way the article on Dvergar/Dvärgar/Dverger/Dværger/Dverga/Kääpiöitä is titled "Norse dwarves" and the article on Εὐκλείδης/Eukleidēs is titled Euclid. We can certainly have "Nisse", "Tomte" and so forth redirected here, but coining an English term would probably be best if we want to make this article culturally neutral. --TheFinalFraek (talk) 08:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

It does seem a bit strange that this article is named "tomte", when the article itself clearly states that Norway, Denmark and southern parts of Sweden use "nisse". Sounds like a majority to me. --Saddhiyama (talk) 16:31, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Scandinavian Gnome sounds acceptable. I've seen the translation from English gnome to nisse several times, but such a move gets awfully close to original research unless we find a link justifying it. Carewolf (talk) 14:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Garden gnomes

Could someone post about how this ancient, pagan Norse figure turned into the modern day garden gnomes we have around outside of Scandinavia? - Bloodofox 9/28/05

Nisse is actually Scandinavian for gnome, so they didn't turn anywhere, they are the same.

The Jultomte and the Santa Claus are the same. The tomte that wants porridge is another creature. The difference between the Jultomte and Santa Claus is that the Jultomte comes through the door and that he comes on Christmas Eve instead of Christmas Day. Then the Jultomte can live on the North Pole but we should know that Greenland and Lappland are north of the pole circle.

Tomte sport

Is this a real sport? Is it notable? It looks like nonsense. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 08:29, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I deleted it per WP:NFT. —Ashley Y 07:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Julemanden

In Denmark the " julenisse" and the " julemand" are two different things. The julenisse is the creature from the Scandinavian folklore which protect the house, but the " julemand " is just the Danish word for santa claus/ father christmas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.52.8.238 (talk) 01:58, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Julenisse is Santa Claus in Norwegian. Nisse is the name for the creatures that protect the house. http://www.nationen.no/images/id/779/779178/7791786/jpg/active/866x551.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.202.3.137 (talk) 08:22, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

There is some confusion here between nissen and Julemanden.

The Danish name for Santa is Julemanden (the Christmas Man). It is he who lives in Greenland. When nisser is said to live in Greenland, it is as Santa's little helpers. Santa has no association with elves. He is much as in the US, including the flying sled. However, since the gifts are given after dinner on Christmas Eve in these parts, he cannot sneak in during the night. If you have someone dressed up he may knock on the door, or simply appear in the living room.

If a nisse rather than Julemanden is said to bring the gifts, he does not live in Greenland. He usually lives in the attic of the house. While he may be called nissen, "the nisse", this is understood to mean "the nisse that lives in this house", not "the one and only nisse" (as opposed to Julemanden, who is a singular individual). If you have someone dress up as a nisse, he should not knock on the door, since the nisse lives in the house.

Klausok 17:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

In Norwegian, "Julenissen" is Santa Claus, "Nissen" is the small protector gnome. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 13:13, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

But nowadays, "nissen" usually means "julenissen". People generally don't talk about any other kind of nisse. 195.159.217.98 (talk) 10:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC) (Nick)

In Denmark where I live, I rarely hear people speak about julenisser (Christmas nisses), but nisses are almost only mentioned at Christmas time ( hear understood as most of December ) NLEenglish (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 04:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Nisse (Nils), St. Nikolas

This is something I've never been able to find an answer to, and even with all the information in the Wikipedia "Santa Claus" and "Tomte" articles, it isn't there. Is it a coincidence that the word "nisse" has the same etymology as Santa Claus? "Nisse" comes from "Nils", the Scandinavian version of "Nikolas". But Nissen/Tomten is originally a completely separate tradition from St. Nikolas or Sinterclaas. They merged later, first in Denmark in the 1840s according to this article. Either the common name is completely coincidental; or the words "nisse" or "tomtenisse" for the Scandinavian creature was influenced by St. Nikolas long before nissen was connected to Christmas, which seems unlikely. Here in Norway the going explanation of the origins of Julenissen is that the word "nisse" comes from St. Nikolas. I've read this countless times, but I can't make it fit. 195.159.217.98 (talk) 10:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC) (Nick)

One ancient name for this creature or spirit in Norwegian was "bon" (="bonden", i.e. the farmer), often combined to "godbon" (good "bon") or "haugbon" (mound "bon"). This is from this source. It also says that the origin of this creature (the bon) was "the old farmer, he who once in pre-Christian times was laid in a mound with weapons and tools to watch over the farm and the people there." So at some point the bon (or tomte, haugkall, tomtegubbe, tomtebonde) could have been connected to the St. Nikolas myths and the word nisse started being used. I have no idea if this would be before the appearance of Julenissen in the latter half of the 1800s in Norway.195.159.217.98 (talk) 11:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC) (Nick)

More research. From Norwegian Wikipedia:

The word "nisse" comes from Denmark, where the creature could also be called "Niels", "Niels Gårdbo" or "Pug". "Nisse" was also used in Skåne (Sweden) and in Norway mostly in the East. The name is an abbrevation of Nikolaos or Nils, and came via Germany after the Reformation. The modern julenissen is rooted in the saint figure St. Nikolaos, and it was probably the similarity of the names "Nikolaos" and "nisse" which led to a mixing with julenissen in the 1800s and connected the farm nisse with Christmas.

"Niels Gårdbo" means something like Niels farm dweller, and "Pug" is obviously connected with Puck.

From [1], in Danish:

In older times nissen was also called Gårdbo. In Sweden he was called "tomte" and in Norway "gardvord". ... "Nis" or "Nisse" is an abbrevation of the boys' name Niels. "Nisse" is also a name - not just a species! Perhaps in reality it's a noa-name, a kind of "cover name", which one could use because the real name was too secret and dangerous?

I have no idea what "noa-name" is in English, but it describes a euphemism used for creatures or things that it's dangerous to name, in old superstition.

Nothing there about St. Nikolas. I've also found out that Nils/Niels was a Scandinavian name at least from the 1455 (first recorded use in Sweden), and there's nothing about this name having its origin in the Catholic saint specifically. Most likely, since Nils/Niels/Nisse became a common name in Scandinavia, its use for farm spirits was completely unrelated to St. Nikolas (unlike what many articles claim). And so it was actually a coincidence that this creature, which was later connected to St. Nikolas, and even used as a model to some degree for the developing physical appearance of the modern Santa Claus, already shared a name with the saint. 195.159.217.98 13:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC) (Nick)

The most comprehensive dictionary of Danish, Ordbog over det danske Sprog (ODS) (ie. "Dictionary of the Danish Language"), vol. XIV, 1933 states: "Nisse (...) actually a form of the name Nikolaus, Niels and used as a sort of pet name (taboo word?) for a 'gårdbo', 'husbuk' etc."[2] The ODS in turn quotes Johannes Brøndum-Nielsen Gammeldansk Grammatik [i.e. "Grammar of Old Danish"] vol. II, page 219, 1928-35. As the name dates from the Catholic era, it is only logical that it derives from the name of the Catholic saint, and the vast majority of Danish names are derived from names of biblical figures (Anders/Andreas = [St.] Andrew; Jens/Jan/Jon/Johannes/Hans = [St.] John; Per = [St.] Peter etc.) If the earlist record of the name in Sweden points to 1455, then the Danish use of the name must be a lot older. Notably, Denmark had a king Niels in the early 12th century. 89.150.160.26 (talk) 21:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I think it is very difficult to tell since people in the Romanticism often changed the folklore according to their own agenda. It may very well be (and I'm speculating here) that the word "nisse", as referring to "tomte", started to appear in the 19:th century with the birth of Santa Claus. /Benzocaine (talk) 17:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

P.S. At least in Sweden, instead of Santa Claus, there used to be a man known as "Julbocken" ("The Christmas goat") who came with the presents. I think this tradition of the goat originally came from Germany. And this was not very long time ago. I think my grandparents didn't have a Santa Claus, but a Julbock. Disney and Coca Cola have done a great job in marketing their Father Christmas... /Benzocaine (talk) 17:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Pagan and Christian need to be separated

The Tomte page is very useful and informative, but, like all pagan traditions, the Church colonised the celebration of yuletide which marks the winter solstice when candles and the yule log were lit to welcome the return of the light and renamed yuletide as Christmas (mass to celebrate the birth of jesus). In Sweden it is still called Yule (jul - yuletide just means yule-time - jultid).

Many comments on this page haven't made that distinction which muddies the issue. The saints associated with yuletide - Nicholas (Santa Claus) and also Lucia (Santa Lucia) on 13 December - are christianised additions to the far older pre-christian welcoming of the turn of the seasons with the longed-for return of the light. Sunrise in Stockholm isn't until around 9 am followed by a long dawn as the sun climbs slowly above the horizon and sunset is at 2.30 pm preceded by a long dusk. So only a short part of the day, some 3 or 4 hours is with full daylight.

My suggestion would be to make a clearer distinction between the pre-christian festival and the various Christian additions made by both Orthodox and Roman Churches. Jim Kemeny 10:49, 20 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jim Kemeny (talk • contribs)

Some clarification of this may be needed in the article, but it is important to stress the fact that in the rural areas the nisse/tomte phenomenon continued to be accepted by many as recently as the 19th century, quite undisturbed by the introduction of Christianity. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:31, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

English/American

What about using Leprechaun as the English/American name. The Leprechaun are in danish said to be an Irske (Irish) nisse. Or using Goblin as the English/American name as the first Harry Potter film says. The film is translated from english to danish and in the film Goblin is translated to Nisse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.56.8.250 (talk) 14:49, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

They might be related creatures, but not entirely equivalent. Especially the goblin seems too malevolent. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:35, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

American Influence Is Understated

I have to specify right away that I am talking here about the nisse/julenisse in the contemporary Norwegian imagination, so some or all of this may be incorrect in a Danish or Swedish context (actually, I think the article needs to distinguish more clearly between the three, particularly when talking about the nisse/julenisse merger). In that Norwegian context, however, I think the article understates American influence on the julenisse. In Norway, the contemporary julenisse is practically indistinguishable from the American Santa Claus. He lives on the North Pole, he is overweight and jolly with a long white beard, he arrives in a sled pulled by flying reindeer. It is true that he still competes in some contexts with a more traditional Norwegian conception of the julenisse (more similar to the nisse of folklore) and most adults, at least, are aware of the more traditional julenisse, but by and large Norwegian children think of Santa Claus when the julenisse (or just nisse) is mentioned. The result is that the traditional nisse (the protector of the farm as described in the article) is generally more clearly distinguished from the julenisse than the article seems to suggest. The "farm nisse" is mostly associated with old folktales, while the Americanized julenisse is very much "alive" in the contemporary culture. Maitreya (talk) 12:57, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Of course it would require some reliable secondary sources to add this information, but it is still interesting to see such a divergence. Speaking from a Danish perspective it seems the traditional view of the nisse has been more or less upheld, not least because of the large number of tv Christmas calendars featuring nisser which all portray them as quite distinct from Santa Claus, unlike the information given in this article under the heading "The modern tomte". As such I support that this article needs more distinction between the different traditions in the various Nordic countries. It does seem mainly written from a Swedish perspective. --Saddhiyama (talk) 13:10, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Nisse

A Danish Nisse, a type of GNOME or Elf(The small kind) associated with Christmas in Danish tradition but not to be confused with the Norse mythology. A Nisser is a human-like mythical creature of Scandinavian folklore. Nisser to have enough for Disposal with gnome and Leprechaun. In Old Danish fairies Story as a small gray man with a red hat as thanks for the help from an nissen peasant gifts the nissen a bowl of porridge but if the farmer forgot to give the Nisse porridge white Nissen gets angry and made life miserable for the porridge. Publicly nisserne can also move by WHEN Danish moving overseas, not only with the horsevogns. Jensen (1997) showed that there is nisser of the dance Western Indie Islands.Blake found and so out of it is a Scandinavian minority in the Midvest of use, elsewhere these, Nisser grew up. This is shown on this map where the colors show how many Danish and Swedish and Norwegian and Finland is each tally. In most of history can Nisser talk with animals and to animal and do great use of forest animals!so maybe Wikipedia was part of the dance Nissen and the Norwegian Nissen and two research side and give the Swedish Tomte one page.

Recently, Nisser are also associated as the helpers of Santa Claus, which may be worth mentioning in the article.194.255.151.28 (talk) 12:57, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Difference between Swedish tomte and Jultomten

From a Swedish perspective, this article seems to wildly alternate between describing a tomte and Jultomten which are very much two different things (albeit the difference has decreased over the years). Like the Swedish article correctly describes, a tomte is a mythical short grey and bearded creature that took care of the farm if treated nicely (or committed horrible mischief if not). The tomte had however nothing to do with handing out presents and existed long before Julbocken (the yule goat) was replaced by the modern Jultomten (basically a mix between a tomte and the American Santa Claus). Perkelton (talk) 04:11, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Shouln't this page be called "Nisse" instead of "Tomte"?

In Norway and Denmark the tomte is called nisse. Only in parts of sweden it is called tomte. And even then it's sometimes called tomtenisse. Instead of saying "tomte, also called nisse", wouldn't it be better if it was "Nisse, also called tomte"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by KnutfAen (talk • contribs) 19:06, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

okay, so i will change it within a month or so if nobody have anything against it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.9.14.82 (talk) 18:31, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree, this should be moved to nisse, as it seems to be more prevalent. FunkMonk (talk) 01:32, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

In Sweden the jultomte is the old man delivering gifts to the children and nissar (plural of nisse) are smaller and helping him. This means that tomte and nisse are not synonyms in Sweden, at least not when talking about Christmas. /Jiiimbooh » TALK – CONTRIBS 15:42, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Why the redirect?

Why does Haltija redirect to here? Some haltijas can also be called tonttus, but not all of them. The old haltija article was fine enough. 85.29.118.124 (talk) 17:06, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

See this change, earlier this year. I know nothing of Haltija, but I see your point and there's no discussion of this merge. If you think that they're better separated, then just undo the merge. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:11, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Cleanup: "santa clausification" of #Modern Tomte

I feel we are confusing readers unfamiliar with the concept; heck, as a native Swede, I feel confused myself.

Let's start by listing a few facts that need better integration:

1. The Jultomte isn't at all accompanied by the Julbocken in general - the Gävlebocken notwithstanding, Jultomten is very often depicted as coming alone, and I would say the american reindeer is at least as often his companion nowadays.
2. It WAS customary to leave porridge. Is this section about the 1840s or is it about now? Is this a history overview or a contemporary description? (It is the 2010s now) This paragraph talks about how grown-ups remember the role of Tomten back in the twentieth century, rather than an up to date depiction.
3. the role of commercialism isn't emphasized enough. Or alternatively, that the article doesn't make it sufficiently clear what the section is about: again, a historic overview or the situation now. If I claimed Jultomten lived at the North Pole, I sincerely doubt young swedes would immediately protest "He doesn't live on the North Pole".
4. "The use of the word tomte in Swedish is now somewhat ambiguous." Please rephrase in a way that makes it clear that all (most?) Swedes clearly understand both concepts, both the (americanized) Jultomten, and the concept of (much less americanized) "tomtenissar".
5. Sweden has (unlike other Nordic countries) currently a large population of immigrants; yet the article reads as if the modern tomte is unaffected by recent cultural influences.

Anything else? More generally, perhaps it's time to split off the "modern tomte" into an article of its own, so it can reside between Santa Claus and Nisse? CapnZapp (talk) 10:13, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

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Modern paranormal claims should not be interwoven with cultural folklore studies

(Re: the non-WP:RS website extant as of this edit)

Sorry for the unwieldy section heading, but I wasn't sure quite how to say this. My attention was drawn to the very precise claims, in the introductory section, regarding the maximum height of a nisse. Such specificity didn't sound very folkloric to me, and when I moused over the nearest superscript I saw that the source was apparently an article in a periodical called The Paranormalist. It seems to me that purported data from such studies do not belong here. Jcejhay (talk) 13:05, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

@Jcejhay: Overdramatic.

The site (Mr. John Carlson)[3] merely failed to specify source for "Tomtar were no more than 3 feet tall".

I would chalk it up to your fertile imagination that he must be publishing some sort of measurement "data".

He could have easily picked this up from some book on Swedish culture, viz:

A 1995 annual published by a "Swedish Council of America" says "The tomte was always an old man, about 2 to 3 feet tall".[4] --Kiyoweap (talk) 12:46, 17 April 2020 (UTC) -- (modified with oldid, url specified for archival purposes) Kiyoweap (talk) 12:58, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

@Kiyoweap: There's no need to be insulting, and I'm afraid you have missed the point. "It is generally described as being no taller than 90 cm (35 in)" has a level of ostensible precision that is inappropriate (pseudo-scientific instead of folkloric). If you want to improve the article, I suggest you revise it to something closer to the more approximate language ("about 2 to 3 feet") in the source you found, and cite that source. (I will do it myself, if I get the time.) Jcejhay (talk) 13:04, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Once again, you are finding fault where you shouldn't be.

You are claiming that adding cm-ft conversion information is somehow "inappropriate pseudo-scientific" editing but that is just plain hogwash.

Editors are clearly authorized to convert to metric pursuant to WP:METRIC, and use the {{cnv}} template as conversion apparatus.--Kiyoweap (talk) 17:33, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

@Kiyoweap: Once again, you are misunderstanding my point. It is not the conversion per se that is the issue; it's the use of overly exact numbers. Jcejhay (talk) 19:13, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't know what is "overly exact" for you. This looks to be your own preference.

For example, explaining that an inch is approximately 2.5 cm is not "overly exact" but common sense in the minds of many, I submit.

And what if you're dealing with the Norwegian tale "Tommeliten"? By your standards the Norwegian inch should be explained as 3 cm rather than 2.6 cm.

Your stance is obviously not well-thought out, and it's probably best you give this area of editing wide berth. --Kiyoweap (talk) 10:25, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

@Kiyoweap: Obviously, I've been wasting my time trying to have a productive conversation with someone who doesn't recognize the difference in tone between "no taller than 90 cm" and "about 2 to 3 feet." However, it looks like you have meanwhile made a good edit that addressed my concerns here ("generally described as being short"), and for that I thank you. Jcejhay (talk) 15:19, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Estonian version

It seems to be essentially the same concept as the Estonian päkapikud. Someone should add a reference about them to the article. H2ppyme (talk) 14:57, 25 November 2020 (UTC)