Talk:Sacrifice

Self-Sacrifice/Social or Cultural Sacrifice

What about Self-Sacrifice? The essence of this is it involvers some personal cost, the extent of the cost being proportional to the extent of the self-sacrifice. It can be anything of value to the bearer including a forbearance of some pleasure, desire, or need upto sacrificing everything including ones life.

Indeed, there is an argument that unless a sacrifice comes at some significant cost, it is no sacrifice at all, or at the most a symbolic sacrifice. This aspect is particularly important in theological considerations of Sacrifice to God.

A reason for Self-Sacrifice (to God) is as penance for sin.

Yes, good point. The lead doesn't even mention that kind of sacrifice, like a personal commitment, exposing oneself to risk, being brave or even just reacting in the moment. The article lacks wider context. An example is at the moment people are making great sacrifices for the pandemic, through isolation, lockdowns, bans, abstinences, etc. How can we encompass that kind of sacrifice into this article? - Shiftchange (talk) 13:57, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

This article seems quite specific to me, and deals with material sacrifice directed toward God and not toward one's neighbor. This might be seen as a companion article to Propitiation which covers more the theology, rather than the practice, of sacrifice to God(s). Perhaps the Terminology section should clarify where matters like generosity and self-sacrifice directed toward our neighbor are discussed. Jzsj (talk) 16:05, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Other matters

I deleted this text:

• (None of these mention the Biblical reasons for sacrifices. Will be added.)

from the list of explanations of the theology of sacrifice. It's been there for quite some time. There are Biblical explanations already in the list, although they may well be incomplete. Some potential Biblical explanations for sacrifice (atonement, asceticism) are also there, but stated as being of general application, as IMNPHO they should be. -- Smerdis of Tlön 19:08, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

This article quotes, or references the authority of many sources, yet lacks adequate citations to support most of its facts. The information in this article needs to be audited, and these instances need to be linked up to actual resources. Simply saying, "so and so says..." is not sufficient. --75.32.150.185 (talk) 21:41, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

recent sacrifice

There is an interesting account of a recent sacrifice of six bulls in the latest edition [Autumn 2005] of Sacred Fire magazine, in an article entitled "Divine Nourishment." Carptrash 14:08, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

The most recent everyday sacrifice of the masculine prepuce is so common it was not even mentioned. This religious, ritual, or routine sacrifice is the cornerstone of Judaic, Christian, and Islam Faiths, or myths, as they must believe that God spoke with and commanded Abraham to sacrifice his and his sons's prepuce in order to become god's chosen race, or there would not be a need or cause of these religious concepts to exist in the first place.In other words, the justification of the sacrificial covenant law of infant circumcision is why these religions exist in the first place. Without this prophetic sacrifice means no chosen race of the covenant sacrifice, which means no need for a prophetic Savior from the chosen race covenant sacrifice, which means no need for the prophetic anti Savior. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.162.149.132 (talk) 11:25, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Christian human sacrifice

There are many accounts in folklore and arhelogical evidence that christians immured people in churches when new church was built and for protection from plague, I believe that it was form of human secriface and should mentioned, but I`m affraid that this could prove to be highly controversial, comments ? -- Xil - talk 20:20, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Check whether they did this because of a particular interpretation of their scripture or not. If they didn’t have any religious justification for what they were doing, it should not be included in the “Sacrifice in Christianity” part (maybe somewhere else in the article after making sure that it is a fact). But if they religiously justified it, then you can quote it from a reliable source and add it to the “Sacrifice in Christianity” part Aminz 23:20, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

For that matter, do you have a reference for the immuring itself? This was Celtic pagan practice -- deplored by the (pagan) Romans -- but we would need a reference that proves that Christians did it. Goldfritha 00:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Indian Poors sacrifice their children for Prosperity.

Indian Poors secrifice their children for Prosperity.

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=79072

Parents sacrificing sons to be prosperous

Press Trust of India Posted online: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 at 1643 hours IST

Baripada (Orissa), January 3: Lured by promises of prosperity, a couple has allegedly sacrificed their two sons in Orissa's northern district of Mayurbahanj Padmalochan Gan and his wife Tuni had been advised by a 'tantric' to sacrifice their sons Harish (9) and Dipu (7) and hold a puja to set themselves on the path to prosperity, police said on Wednesday. The couple sacrificed their sons at their home at Tilapada village, about 55 km from here, after observing some rituals in the presence of the tantrik, identified as Jagannath Tudu, police said. Though the incident had occurred about a week ago it came to light only this morning, when the foul smell emanating from the decomposed bodies alerted the local people. They found the bodies of the two boys and informed the police, which have arrested the couple. The tantrik is absconding. The couple also has a two-month-old daughter, who had been spared, police said.

vkvora 04:10, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Judaism

The teachings of the Torah and Tanakh reveal Judaism's abhorrence of human sacrifices. This is quite a gloss on human sacrifice in the Judaic tradition. There is abhorrence, also ambivalence and contradiction. It's there and is rather interesting. Hakluyt bean 03:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Sir Richard Burton had a story about human ritual sacrifice in "The Jew, The Gypsy and El Islam" based on accounts from the French consul in Syria.

[2]

The Story of Isaac in itself implies human ritual sacrifice. Genesis 22:1-18

--Rolec Dubbing (talk) 20:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

There are references to blood and its purification on page 80 of 'The Jew', can these be equated with the ritual practices of the Kali worshippers and the sacrifices of the Maya? There was something in blood that had a (negative) power and had to be purified, hence the concept of Kosher meat. --Wool Bridge (talk) 21:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Jewish prayer books (avoiding siddur being the Ashkenazi term and therefore not representative for other Jews) contain passages asking God to reinstate sacrifices as in ancient times. I think the best place to add such information would be the paragraph on the Ramban’s position since it agrees with him.

For Judaism’s view on human sacrifice, one may refer to Jeremiah 7:31 (with English Tanḥuma Buber translation) and, of course commentators (like Rashi, obviously) and midrashim (Tanḥuma Buber, Appendix to wa’etḥanan 2:2, Yalquṭ on Jer 7 with information similar to Rashi’s commentary). I may point out this parallels what Graeco-Roman authors wrote about the Phoenicians, as mentioned in the article. (By the way, such information would also improve the Topheth article.)

Besides, the section’s title should be changed since, from a histrorical point of view, once speaks about Jews from the Second Temple period onward, thus not including the preceding part of Ancient Israel’s history, nor the Samaritans. --2003:F5:FF0B:1400:598:8B4E:2CC7:D029 (talk) 12:45, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Christianity

the last part of this portion of the article is pretty vague and unencyclopedic. Every sentence has either "seems to be" or "apparently" The note on the passion movie has a citation needed no, but it seems pretty unverifiable to me

The results of some research in the last several years has shown that the word ἀνάμνησις, "an-AHM-nay-sis", does not not mean to think about prior events but in the context means "memorial sacrifice". That ought to be included though I'm not sure how to work it in. Another is the issue of different groups listed as seeing the Eucharist as a sacrifice aren't all operating with the same definition; in the Bible there are at least six different kinds of sacrifice ( burnt offering, grain offerings, peace offerings, purification offerings, reconciliation offerings, thank offering), All these were considered sacrifices, and the multiplicity of types and meanings is reflected in the definitions being use by different groups. This should also be noted in the article. Dismalscholar (talk) 21:42, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

References

"Examples of self-sacrifice"

Self sacrifice is such a subjective notion that to list examples is to tilt the boat, any way you take it. For example, the accidental circumstance that a suicide bomber dies in his own explosion does not exonerate him from the murder he commits. Especially if he's waiting to go to paradise. (No, not every suicide bomber is.) --VKokielov (talk) 01:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. How about hte example of:

Captain Lawrence Edward Grace "Titus" Oates (17 March 1880 – 16 March 1912)[1] was an English cavalry officer with the 6th (Inniskilling) Dragoons, and later an Antarctic explorer, who died during the Terra Nova Expedition. Oates, afflicted with gangrene and frostbite, walked from his tent into a blizzard. His death is seen as an act of self-sacrifice when, aware that his ill health was compromising his three companions' chances of survival, he chose certain death.[2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.176.105.153 (talk) 08:42, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Hinduism

The section is unsourced, false, and sickening. I am removing most of the text under WP:V.Bakaman 18:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Historical Polytheism

Where did the nonsense about the ancient Egyptians not practising sacrifice come from? I removed it and cited the Apis cult as a counter example.Lewisaa (talk) 17:40, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's actually rather doubtful whether that is sacrifice as such. The bull was allowed to live for 25 or so years, which is longer than the average bovine lifespan, so most would have simply died of natural causes. They were killed if they lived after that date which was determined as the limit of each incarnation, but they were not being sacrificed, since it was believed that the bull was the God, and that it needed to be released to be reincarnated. That's quite different from the conventional idea of sacrificing an animal as an offering to a God. Paul B (talk) 16:00, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Bloodless sacrifice and dedication of objects

Both are mentioned in the lead, but their historical treatment in the main text is sketchy at best. Accordingly, the article as a whole is unbalanced. Ancient and Classical Greece and Rome, Celtic, Gallic, Germanic practice et al offer rich pickings here, as does the transition from pre-Christian to Christian era. As it stands, the promise made in the lede (sacrificium as "making sacred" - which is, surely, a reverential act and offering - whether of animal, vegetable or mineral - whose explication also remains undeveloped here) wanders off into a bit of a bloodfest. Excepting, of course, for the refreshing veg main-dish in the Hindu section... Perhaps the addition of a new header will spark a contribution or two. Haploidavey (talk) 00:45, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Ayn Rand

I removed the clear bias in the section on Ayn Rand which flat-out stated her beliefs to be "erroneous." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.234.89 (talk) 01:44, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Ayn Rand? This section is completely superfluous. Should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.161.210.145 (talk) 22:42, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Agree but only because of the generally observed community policy for AR stuffs and the current overall content. It's long since history at this point and yes stating that her view that "man is not a sacrificial animal" or whatever is erroneous would be inappropriate. This article isn't about the abstract concept of sacrifice or altruism, it's about ritual sacrifice, the actually historically occurring thing. 76.180.168.166 (talk) 03:43, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

odd list in lead

Why is there a list which looks like a cross between a disambig page and a see also section in the lead? Seems a bit odd. I might move it. Huw Powell (talk) 00:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Go for it. Haploidavey (talk) 00:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the encouragement, I went ahead and removed it. Huw Powell (talk) 01:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Seriously, any improvements at this, um, less-than-adequate article are very welcome. Haploidavey (talk) 01:25, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Sacrifice to the Banner in Ming dynasty China

Link, Eugene. The Scholar's Mind: Essays in Honor of Frederick W. Mote. p. 218.

Katz, Paul. Divine Justice: Religion And The Development Of Chinese Legal Culture.

Farmer, Edward. Zhu Yuanzhang and Early Ming Legislation: The Reordering of Chinese Society Following the Era of Mongol Rule. p. 124.

Peterson, Willard. The Cambridge History of China: Volume 9, Part 1, The Ch'ing Empire to 1800, Volume 1; Volume 9. p. 341.

Association for Asian Studies. Dictionary of Ming Biography, 1368-1644, Volume 1. p. 588.

Lagerwey, John; Kalinowski, Marc. Early Chinese Religion: Part One: Shang Through Han (1250 BC-220 AD) (2 Vols). p. 800.

Wang, Richard. The Ming Prince and Daoism: Institutional Patronage of an Elite. p. 31.

Mather, Richard. The Age of Eternal Brilliance: Shen Yüeh (441-513). p. 90.

Overmyer, Daniel. Local Religion in North China in the Twentieth Century: The Structure and Organization of Community Rituals and Beliefs. p. 47.

Kern, Martin. Text and Ritual in Early China. p. 270.

Guo, Qitao. Exorcism and Money: The Symbolic World of the Five-Fury Spirits in Late Imperial China.

Theiss, Janet. Disgraceful Matters: The Politics of Chastity in Eighteenth-Century China. p. 121.

Andrew, Anita; Rapp, John. Autocracy and China's Rebel Founding Emperors: Comparing Chairman Mao and Ming Taizu. p. 209.

Keay, John. China: A History.

Hucker, Charles. 中国古代官名辞典. p. 235.

Mote, Frederick. Imperial China 900-1800. p. 1086.

Nolan, Cathal. The Age of Wars of Religion, 1000-1650: An Encyclopedia of Global Warfare and Civilization, Volume 1. p. 62.

Rawski, Evelyn. The Last Emperors: A Social History of Qing Imperial Institutions. p. 462.

Struve, Lynn. Voices from the Ming-Qing Cataclysm: China in Tigers' Jaws. p. 109.

Bridgman, Elijah; Willaims, Samuel. The Chinese Repository, Volume 20.

Rajmaan (talk) 17:13, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Changed links to use Cite Book rather than raw Google Books URLs. Hopefully should make these more useful if those links ever become stale. Sorry to modify your post. Zell Faze (talk) 17:10, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Is the purpose of sacrifice to cause social and economic pressure and deprivation?

I wonder if sacrifice has a purpose to cause social and economic pressure and deprivation? Having read the old testament, I see that the Israelites were instructed to sacrifice a huge amount of blood and non-blood offerings. Given that the testament includes a census of the population it would be interesting to try and calculate the economic effect of this destruction of wealth. I wonder if instructing a population to sacrifice and so destroy wealth is similar to the purpose of the war in George Orwells 1984. Perhaps the purpose is to prevent prosperity and condemn the people to abject deprivation as part of some perverse holy strategy?194.176.105.139 (talk) 08:13, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Sacrifice/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Needs reference citations and references. Badbilltucker 17:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 17:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 05:13, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Definite citation and possible copyright problems in section

Just something to add to the multiple list of problems here.

The material on Minoan Human sacrifice was added to the article in 2004 by an IP; see this diff. Unsurprisingly (given that this was 2004) it was uncited. Another IP added a citation in 2005, [3] after removing some of the material, presumably because the citation (a dead-linked Dartmouth edu. page) didn't support it. Today, an editor tagged the dead-linke so I tried an alternative route to the same page. A truncated-syntax search gave a Dartmouth edu. course reading list comprising four scholarly publications. Among them - and the only one accessible to me online - is a reputable specialist publication by Hughes, who seems (at least to me, after a rather cursory reading) to argue against most if not all the conclusions presented as fact in our article.

Another thing - chunks of the section text appear uncredited in at least two online self-publications; one here from 2007, and another more recent here. Both are post 2004 so we've likely been copied, rather than vice versa; but maybe not. The earliest IP version strikes me as a wee bit bloggy. Haploidavey (talk) 23:26, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Someone more in the know than I has checked for copyvio, and found no outrages. The citation matter remains, tho. Haploidavey (talk) 00:55, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

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Sacrifice of activities?

Do people think it would make sense to have a section on things like fasts, where the worshiper gives up an activity or pleasure for religious reasons? Seems like a form of sacrifice to me (and is referred to that way)?IAmNitpicking (talk) 12:57, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 9 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Editors felt that this move could be revisited when and if there is an article covering "sacrifice" in a more general context, but for now religious sacrifice is the clear primary topic. (non-admin closure) WPscatter ^t/_c 14:56, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

---

Sacrifice → Sacrifice (religion) or Religious sacrifice – I brought up this articles name a while ago on the WikiProject Religion talk page and I felt it was time to try to do something about it. "Sacrifice" in general means to give up something precious in turn to receive or retain something and does not always need to happen in a religious context; for example when giving up a habit or possession as part of a compromise with a person, group or institution. ★Trekker (talk) 09:43, 9 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:07, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose I can see there being a WP:BROADCONCEPT article for this, but there doesn't appear to be one yet, leaving just the DAB page to be moved to primary. And Wikipedia is not a dictionary - therefore the religious concept is currently still primary. When the broad concept page is actually made, I would not mind revisiting this. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 10:43, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Zxcvbnm - I don't see this as something that needs to be disambiguated, as this does seem to be the primary topic. SportingFlyer T·C 16:17, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support aside from the religious use, there is the opportunity cost of an action, and the cost of an action; especially in the context of the butcher's bill in warfare -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 06:08, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Zxcvbnm. It would be better to see an actual broad concept article before making a decision like this. Srnec (talk) 02:22, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Easily the primary encyclopaedic topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:16, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.