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According to Leo Africanus, the term Amazigh meant "free man" did he use the modern term "Amazigh" or is that the author's interpretation? We need to establish this because this is at odds with what we know about the term. M.Bitton (talk) 23:31, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The cited source[1] attributes the claim to two sources:
Source 1[2] says: "The term ‘Amazigh’, meaning 'free men' is preferred over 'Berber' by increasing numbers of Berberphones/Tamazightphones, and especially by activists. I use the terms 'Amazigh' and 'Berber' interchangeably in this article". There is no mention of Leo Africanus.
I managed to access the second source and although it does mention Leo Africanus, it's not clear what "the word" (as used in the source) is supposed to refer to. Luckily, they attribute the claim to the original source[4] (which needs to be checked next). M.Bitton (talk) 01:39, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It would be good to check the primary source anyways, but I'm assuming the authors (Brett & Fentress) are referring to the word "mazices" mentioned in the preceding sentence, and/or its apparent cognates.
Also, I think we can probably cite Brett and Fentress directly for the statement in question (According to Leo Africanus, the term Amazigh meant "free man", with that etymology being disputed). Based on what I see here, it seems like they're the ones who summarized the facts in this particular manner and Stepanova is just repeating it in passing. R Prazeres (talk) 02:37, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Follow-up: I can't access the 1981 edition of Description d'Afrique, but in the 1896 edition, the relevant page is probably p.28 ([1]). Here, Leo Africanus gives the meaning as "noble" rather than "free". Brett & Fentress mention that possible meaning the following sentences but not in reference to Leo Africanus ([2]). To me, this adds to the confusion about etymology on the one hand, but on the other hand it does confirm that Leo Africanus mentioned the term. R Prazeres (talk) 03:33, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would normally say yes, but I'm wary, since Brett & Fentress is a reliable secondary source. If they're saying something slightly different about Leo Africanus', I'm not sure if it's just a minor oversight on their part or if they're looking at more than what I'm seeing? Maybe confirming with the 1981 edition would help, in case that translation was somehow different (unlikely?). R Prazeres (talk) 23:05, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per this paper, the exact language Leo Africanus used was Tutti i cinque popoli [scil.: Sanagia, Musmuda, Zeneta, Aoara et Gumera], i quali sono divisi in centinaia di legnaggi, e in migliaia di migliaia d’abitazioni, insieme si conformano in una lingua: la quale comunemente è da loro detta aquel amarig, che vuol dire lingua nobile; e gli Arabi di Affrica la chiamano lingua barbaresca, che è la lingua africana natia. This is corroberrated by this translation from 1896 and a print from 1550. Early citations of his book refer to aquel amazig instead of aquel amarig so I theorize that it's probably a copyist error from the original manuscript (I am not willing to shell out 140 euros to find out). Per l'Encyclopédie Berbère (44), the "noble man" definition is interpreted from Leo Africanus's definition of aquel amazig [= awal amazigh] which means noble language. NAADAAN (talk) 00:04, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it's probably best to check the 1981 version, though I very much doubt it will be that different.
With that said, since the word Amarig (that he translated as "noble") was used to refer to the language and not the people that he described as Berbers (el Barbar) while giving the origin of the word "Berber" and rehashing Ibn Khaldun's theory about their origin, wouldn't this mention be more appropriate in the Berber languages article (instead of one about the people)? M.Bitton (talk) 00:41, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for both of your follow-ups. With all of the above, I agree that "noble" must clearly be the meaning that Leo Africanus gave it, and we can cite the Encyclopédie Berbère as secondary source for further support, in addition to primary source.
I think it's reasonably relevant in this article, given that it discusses the origins of the word currently being used for the people (it could be mentioned in the language article too, of course). As long as the inline wording here is clear/precise. R Prazeres (talk) 00:50, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
^Stepanova, Anastasia (15 Dec 2018). "Who Conquered Spain? The Role of the Berbers in the Conquest of the Iberian Peninsula". Written Monuments of the Orient. 4 (1). Institute of Oriental Manuscripts of the Russian Academy of Sciences: 78–87. doi:10.17816/wmo35149. ISSN2410-0145.
^Maddy-Weitzman, Bruce (2006). "Ethno-politics and globalisation in North Africa: The berber culture movement*". The Journal of North African Studies. 11 (1): 71–84. doi:10.1080/13629380500409917. ISSN1362-9387.
^Brett, Michael and Fentress, Elizabeth W.B. 1996: The Berbers. Oxford, England; Cambridge, MA: Blackwell Publishing
^Leo Africanus, Description de l'Afrique (Paris, 1981), p. 15
The population refers to speakers of Tamazight only and is therefore misleading. I'd say we either add that these are just native Tamazight speakers, or we look for better estimates that refer to the actual population. Lots of Imazighen don't speak their native languages anymore. Even if we say that only half of all Maghreb countries (Tuareg and Zenaga in Mali, Mauritania, Niger etc. EXCLUDED) have pred. Amazigh heritage (very conservative estimate given the fact that in countries like Morocco it's at around 80%), we arrive at more than 49 million people. It's widely known that the 38 million number refers to Amazighophones. Tarekelijas (talk) 07:28, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"The population refers to speakers of Tamazight only" No it doesn't. Take another look at the sources.
"I'd say we either add that these are just native Tamazight speakers" That's WP:OR. Nowhere in these sources does it state that these are merely Berber-speaking populations. Skitash (talk) 10:20, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
he population refers to speakers of Tamazight only and is therefore misleading. I'd say we either add that these are just native Tamazight speakers, or we look for better estimates that refer to the actual population. Lots of Imazighen don't speak their native languages anymore. Even if we say that only half of all Maghreb countries (Tuareg and Zenaga in Mali, Mauritania, Niger etc 212.108.150.178 (talk) 15:05, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
response to this: Yes, you are indeed right. Most surveys conducted in Morocco, do not ask about your ethnic origin. If you speak Tamazight, it counts you as one, otherwise, it wouldnt. but for the general population, more people consider themselves Amazigh than what the wiki pages and surveys indicate. However, there is no source to confirm this 'yet,' so it should remain as it is until further proper surveys of the population are conducted. TahaKahi (talk) 08:49, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
English wikipedia but some terms are translated to Arabic ?
Simple: the Amazighs are not Arabs. If you are going to do this, then why not apply the same standard to any ethnic population that is a minority (which is not even the case in Morocco)? I don’t like to speak much about this, but for any Amazigh person, it feels like they are always categorized as a secondary offshoot of Arabs, with whom they are not even related. If anything, it raises the question of why such things exist in the Amazigh wiki pages in English (specifically), which are, for some reason, tightly moderated by people who are particularly focused on Arabic nationalism. Nonetheless, Amazighs have their own language, history, and ancestry; they shouldn’t have a different language used to describe them when they have their own written language. TahaKahi (talk) 08:53, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why is Wikipedia "writers" using colonialist nomenclature to refer to the Amazigh people? The Amazigh people find the term "Berber" insulting. The wider world needs to refer to Aboriginal people by their chosen labels rather than ones that were given to them by their oppressors. The term Berber is derogatory. 2001:56A:F548:400:D3BD:27F9:23A3:C04D (talk) 02:36, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The name Berber derives from the Latin word for barbarian, first being used as "Barbar" or people of "Barbaria" to describe North Africans. The ancient Greeks reportedly called the these people Libyans, The Arabs picked it when they conquered North Africa and started using it to refer to the local Amazighs. TahaKahi (talk) 08:55, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
